Fire Safety Question

[Ken C]

First time poster here and I promise future posts will be full of joy and wonder - but not this one. I'm a bit rattled by the loss of children recently in Alabama marina fire. What can I do, as a future cruiser, to make my boat as safe as possible, especially for guests in an unfamiliar berth, should a fire - on my boat or adjacent - occur. While reminders about keeping a properly maintained and clean boat are certainly appropriate, I was really wondering about those extra steps you more experienced members have taken that have provided peace of mind. Thanks.

 

[High Wire]

Working smoke detectors anywhere there are bunks. The best thing you can do is to get everyone out of the boat when a detector goes off. Fire fighting comes after everyone is out of the cabin

 

[Cigatoo]

*Smoke detectors
*Fire extinguishers
*Fire Drills including exit plan and where to go.

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. We have wireless smoke detectors networked together so when 1 goes off they all go off. We look at the docks when we are traveling and see what condition they are in and if it looks suspect we try to move to another dock or marina if possible. If not possible we make a plan as to what if and look for what we would need to do to get off the boat and the dock. We also have a built in halon system and 7 hand held fire extinguishers on board. We have a small 3 step ladder under the bed to help us get out of the escape hatch that we reinstalled when we bought the boat. The PO had removed the escape hatch and decked over the opening.

 

[Comodave]

Another thought is not to dock under covered docks unless they have some of the newer fire preventions built into the covers, like openings in the top and fire breaks.

 

[O C Diver]

Have someone impartial inspect your boat to give objective advice on safety issues. Make sure that everyone on the boat understands escape routes from inside and can open them. Some boats have skylights that open for escape routes in the forward staterooms. Make sure everyone can climb out of them (my boat requires a 4' step ladder to easily use the forward skylight).

Prevention is the key to safety. As the captain of the vessel, you have an obligation to explain the need, use, and location of PFDs. You have the same obligation to explain the procedures in the event of a fire or other emergency situation.

Ted

 

[Olebird]

Scenario: Kids are asleep below. Captain is on aft deck. Large fire in passage way between, Halon released, fire restarted. All power is off. Dark no moon. Cabin single escape hatch is latched from inside.

Now what?

 

[High Wire]

Scenario: Kids are asleep below. Captain is on aft deck. Large fire in passage way between, Halon released, fire restarted. All power is off. Dark no moon. Cabin single escape hatch is latched from inside.

Now what?

So they are sleeping through the smoke alarm blasting a few feet away? Ok, I'll play.
Use a portable extinguisher, knock the flames down at the base, and tell the kids to run. I dont care if I get burned, I'm not leaving them in there.

 

[O C Diver]

Scenario: Kids are asleep below. Captain is on aft deck. Large fire in passage way between, Halon released, fire restarted. All power is off. Dark no moon. Cabin single escape hatch is latched from inside.

Now what?

Start with smoke detectors in each stateroom and the hallway that have built in lights, 10 year lithium batteries, and are wirelessly interfaced. When one goes off, they all go off with illumination lighting. They aren't going to stop until someone deactivates them and you can't sleep through the noise.

Regarding the latch, keep a pry bar handy. Most have cheap plastic hardware that would be easy to break.

Ted

 

[menzies]

Two manageable exits from every space to a dock or shallow water.

 

[Spinner]

Working smoke and carbon monoxide alarms in every space where people sleep. Working fire extinguishers ditto. While perhaps not feasible in warmer climates, wool blankets for beds can improve safety while exiting. Don’t forget a fire blanket and a fire extinguisher in the galley for putting out cooking fires.

Lastly, a fire extinguisher in the cockpit and fire suppression system in the engine room....

 

[Pete Meisinger]

I have fire extinguishers throughout the boat, also smoke detectors. Good up to a point..

All guests are given a very quick emergency escape plan, a quick demo of the latches and we agree upon a meeting place in the event of an emergency every time we dock at a strange location.

pete

 

[MurrayM]

We bought fire extinguishers one size up from what is required for a boat our size. Can’t hurt...

 

[Portage_Bay]

Scenario: Kids are asleep below. Captain is on aft deck. Large fire in passage way between, Halon released, fire restarted. All power is off. Dark no moon. Cabin single escape hatch is latched from inside.

Now what?

Some things to consider. Practice exiting spaces in the dark with the lights off. Have the smallest least strong person release the latch (it should not be latched when the space is occupied) and open the hatch, in the dark with lights off. Stress the importance of keeping access to the hatch clear. Iinstruct all to close the door to the room if possible, this will limit smoke coming in and buy a bit of time before flames hit the space.

High Wire in post #8 suggests fighting the fire with a portable extinguisher and telling the kids to run. That may work. Or it may not. Portables don't have a lot of capacity. Smoke may have filled the compartment to the point you can't see, maybe can't survive entering.

Have a plan B. If it's a typical V berth with a deck hatch, and you have left the hatch unlatched, opening the hatch from the deck is a good plan B. If the kids have done as they're taught and closed the door once you open the hatch the smoke will rise out then the kids can get out.

The point is to practice different scenarios. At first easy ones, then add challenges. Have a talk afterwords where everyone's input is valued. What went right? What went wrong? How can we do better next time? Opps we forgot to unlatch the hatch! Now, where's that fire axe or other tool stout enough to smash the hatch open?

You may not have time to "think on your feet". With the kids sound asleep when the fire starts, you on the aft deck after a good day and a few beers. No one's reactions will be quick or well thought out. Read this post to see how fast it can go from "What's that smoke?" to there's no putting this one out. TF Members escape Manatee Fire post # 13

As O C Diver said in post #6 before yours

..... Prevention is the key to safety. As the captain of the vessel, you have an obligation to explain the need, use, and location of PFDs. You have the same obligation to explain the procedures in the event of a fire or other emergency situation.

Ted

Very well said. As captain your first and primary responsibility is the safety of all aboard.

Many of us on TF have in our professional or military careers had good fire fighting training. Some recreational boaters I expect have as well just because they take safety seriously. Consider getting some training.

Ok, since I've climbed up on my soap box I'll keep on keeping on.... Even though it doesn't pertain to the fire that started this thread...

Consider the installation of an automated shutdown of engines on release of the engine room fire suppression. Yeah, I know, it may go off at an awkward moment. Approaching a dock, crossing a hazardous bar, running a raging tidal current. But, back to the Manatee fire post, what does delaying shutdown gain you? Not much. And why is auto shutdown important? Because the fire suppressant won't stall the engines and they are efficient big air pumps stripping the fire suppressant out of the engine room before it has had the time to work it's magic. And it's a one shot deal, no second chance. And if the fire is still going there is no way a single person with a single portable and no protective gear can expect to enter that space and live to tell the tale.

Please continue to take fire prevention and suppression seriously. Of all the risks associated with boating fire concerns me the most. Flooding? Medical? Breakdown? Grounding? Collision? Almost all of those will give us time to deal with the emergency. I'm not trying to scare anyone, boating is very low risk or we wouldn't be our there taking family and friends with us. And statistically fire is not the greatest risk. But it's the one that has the very real potential to leave us the least amount or time and options to deal with the emergency.

 

[GoneFarrell]

When I use the fwd bunks I swing the hatch latch handles to the open position to enable rapid exit in an emergency.

 

[MurrayM]

When I use the fwd bunks I swing the hatch latch handles to the open position to enable rapid exit in an emergency.

Gold star idea

Our hatch is spring loaded, so will have to put a small sand bag on it to keep it closed.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Yes, or maybe velcro.

 

[MurrayM]

Yes, or maybe velcro.

Silver star

 

[psneeld]

A typical handheld extinguisher in the confines of a boat (size most of us have).is pretty darn effective at knocking the fireball down.....in fact if the fireball is that big or well established, nearby occupants are probably dead already if not in protective gear.

Many fires on boats don't start out of control. The electrical ones especially, which is the most prevalent cause. Many can be identified and extinguished early if you have decent smoke/fire/ CO alarms. Like in a house, having doors shut can delay the spread and minimize heat/smoke into occupied areas...hopefully long enough to use the secondary exit.

Most of the deadly fires I can think of are either fuel or propane explosions or boathouse fires. I have been around dozens of boat fires and minor injuries have been the typical problems other than property damage.

 

[BandB]

Two ways to address the issue. Prevention and a plan.

As to prevention, Alabama was the worst of all possible conditions. Covered dock, no venting, lots of wood, lots of old houseboats, liveaboards with space heaters and propane, subpar electricity and wiring, no fire equipment and local fire department very limited. Do not dock in such a location. Go to the uncovered dock adjacent or another marina. We have fires in South Florida, but they get one boat or at most two and everyone escapes with their lives typically. On top of this have smoke detectors and alarms on board and fire extinguishers but just don't put yourself in such a dangerous spot. Long ago a marina like that one was recognized as dangerous. TVA wouldn't allow it to be built today. Nor would most other areas allow such. Alabama is a great lesson in all the wrong things. Many of those lessons were learned decades ago when fires were all too common in the houseboating capital of Lake Cumberland. Marinas there had to fix the issue or go out of business. They did with a fire boat and with new marina design and with rules. Our home lake in NC got scared and the building rules changed.

Plan. What if? How to escape. How to grab a life jacket and hit the water quickly. Those who leaped into the water appear to have mostly survived and that was in cold water and likely without preservers in some cases if not all. Tragedy occurs too often when one tries too long to save something. Nothing matters but your life.

 

[Olebird]

Some further thoughts:
1. - Firmly mount flash lights in the cabin and brief where they are.
2. - Unlatch escape hatch when cabin is occupied.
3. - Install Smoke/CO detectors with lights.(PO removed originals ??)
4. - Brief exit thru hatch no PFD's (too tight) - place PFD's & extinguisher in forward lazerette.
5. - add some kind of booster step for children to reach hatch.
6. - Brief - put throw float and safety line in the water -
7. - Add two pocket smoke hoods for adults - cabin & cockpit Brief use https://tinyurl.com/wbuenu2

.......

 

[GoneFarrell]

6 & 7 are good, thanks. Hadn't thought of hoods.

And if I get out on deck fwd, I have 6 large cushions for some degree of flotation. Keeping a pair of self inflating pfds fwd I can do too.

 

[rgano]

Scenario: Kids are asleep below. Captain is on aft deck. Large fire in passage way between, Halon released, fire restarted. All power is off. Dark no moon. Cabin single escape hatch is latched from inside.

Now what?

Well, since the question was what have you planned for ahead, maybe you thought to unlatch the hatch or have a woolen blanket where you are so you can quickly dip it in the water and cover your head and body for a run through the flames to rescue them by opening the hatch. Maybe you would have thought to train the kids in opening the hatch and using the fire extinguisher close to their bed. Why didn't they get out before the fire reflashed? Good think piece for sure.

 

[Larry M]

A typical handheld extinguisher in the confines of a boat (size most of us have).is pretty darn effective at knocking the fireball down...

We’ve practiced/played around with a couple of the handheld fire extinguishers most of us have. Outside I lit several fires to see the range, pattern and how to knock down/put out the flames. They are pretty effective but I realized if the fire has taken hold use them for escape. You can usually find extinguishers to experiment with at yard sales pretty cheap. Be warned though they do make a mess from the dry chemicals.

 

[rgano]

You can usually find extinguishers to experiment with at yard sales pretty cheap. Be warned though they do make a mess from the dry chemicals.

That's one reason that AFTER the USCG requirements were complied with I bought a Halotrol fire extinguisher to keep close to the flip-up helm console where there is so much electricity and where I would never shoot dry chemical.

OH, and by the way, WELCOME first time poster. As you can see, we are all so glad you brought your concerns here.

Most rec boats spend most of the their time moored to piers which seems to be well covered here. I imagine most fires associated with boats happen at piers. However, let's not forget that fire response underway may well require quite different responses than at the pier.

While I will run a generator underway, I figure the less I do that, the risk there is for an electrical fire or even one generated by the diesel side of the generator. You could carry this to an extreme and always shut down the genny AND one of your twin engines too, but I am sure you get the drift.

Assuming you are equipped as suggested by the thoughtful responses above, I would guess water temperature, weather, and dinghy/raft availability should figure strongly in your planned response concerning anybody aboard but those fighting the fire. Most of the year in my area, water temp won't be a big issue, but it does get to around 50F in the winter. It is a big issue all the time on the west coast, even off San Diego.

I think Olebird's mention of the escape breathing gear is the best idea here. Toxin-laden smoke kills quickly. There is an 8-minute Emergency Escape Breathing Apparatus (EEBD) attached to every bunk in every US Navy ship. I remember that on my last ship before I retired from the Navy, every single crewmember had to find his way from his bunk to fresh air outside the skin of the ship within 24 hours of reporting aboard. Visibility will be the first thing you lose.

Do you have a sharp hatchet aboard?

 

[ksanders]

First off early detection is the key to everything.

1. Smoke/CO detectors in EVERY area that could possibly be the source of ignition. NOT just the berthing areas, EVERY area. For example I have detectors in the engine space, and behind the electrical panel as well as every “room” on my boat.

2. If in covered moorage then additional detectors up high on the flying bridge. Your boat may not be the source of ignition but you still need to know if there is a fire occurring on your dock.

3. Smoke Detectors that are LOUD, AND networked together so that if one goes off all go off. A smoke detector that you cannot hear is worth nothing.

4. Working escape hatches at minimum on both ends of your boat.

5. Escape supplies near EVERY escape hatch. Good examples would be shoes, jacket, and flotation device. Pants with wallet, cell phone etc, if at sea portable marine radio

6. EDUCATION. Your guests might die if every measure is in place but they do not know about them.

 

[Olebird]

Ken,

Hope some of these post have helped you with your future cruising plans. My son has been having nightmares after the Scottsboro, Al marina fire. He works with kids, has one of his own and frequently has children on his sail boat. He is asking a lot of the same questions. The fire killed 4 & Mom from one family.

My Mainship Pilot II is small and has less over all potential of a fire problem than some of the bigger cruiser, but we do keep her in a covered slip frequently - The fire occurred at the next major marina up river 10 mi from our home port. We've been doing some soul searching to reduce our exposure to the same hazard when on our boat.

As mentioned above good planning is a key. A laminated checklist and/or guest briefing card should be used by every boat owner with overnight guest, especially children.

Lastly, I have a practice of assigning someone as the "safety officer" even for day cruising, who has the specific duty of calling for help should we have a problem - 911 at the dock - if on the water using the VHF.

The USCG - Rescue 21 system is complete and widespread on coastal waters and some inland waters. I strongly urge you and everyone to read up on how to use the VHF radio to call for help as well as how to respond to other boaters in trouble. Just grabbing the mic and yelling "Pan Pan" is the least effective thing you can do, and if you are responding to some one else, can block or confuse the situation if you are unaware how the systems are designed to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_21

Oh ... and welcome to the forum ...

 

[Benthic2]

I would think some basic common sense will mitigate this risk down to negligible.

1.Make sure your wiring is good and only have qualified people make changes to it.

2.Never use space heaters with resistance elements ( the glowy red parts )

3.Don't smoke

4.Don't use candles ever, anywhere, any time, for any reason, no matter what.

5. normal precaution for grease flare up when cooking.

If you do that, you're most likely going to be OK. At some point you have mitigated the risk to the point that you might as well start worrying about falling airplane parts, and whale collisions.

On this thread there are probably a collective hundreds of years aboard....has anyone had a fire problem when not underway ??

 

[rslifkin]

Benthic, that's a good list. Although I wouldn't say never use resistance heaters. They can be used with some caution, but particularly if they're on their high setting, they should not be left operating unattended. So they're for temporary (monitored) use only, where you can deal with one failing before it gets ugly and torches the boat.

 

[psneeld]

I find the danger of candles in some circumstances to be a minimal threat too.