Fire Safety Question

[old salt]

Several good ideas in this conversation, that's for sure. When I was active duty (Navy, long ago, now), we had Emergency Escape Breathing Devices (EEBD's) that enabled us to have enough air in a smoke-filled environment to make a good try at escaping the space - 10 or 15 minutes IIRC. Are there civilian equivalents that anyone knows of? Worth investigating, do you think?

 

[BrianG]

New here but retired Firefighter. I have a lot of experience with flammable liquid fires. I don't believe gasoline belongs on a boat. Use diesel for propulsion and propane for your OB and store the propane above deck and in a ventilated place. Other thing is bulk up on CO and smoke detectors and keep the batteries fresh. I know I know, the lotbat chirps are annoying. Keep what happened in Santa Cruz last October in mind. Change the batteries. And keep your extinguishers located in a visible and accessible place. btw, dry chem extinguishers make a terrible mess. It's the tool of choice on flammable liquids (stay upwind!) but we never used them on electrical fires. They do more damage than the damn fire. Try to de-energize the fire and use water. A small pump type extinguisher is a good idea.

 

[diver dave]

Several good ideas in this conversation, that's for sure. When I was active duty (Navy, long ago, now), we had Emergency Escape Breathing Devices (EEBD's) that enabled us to have enough air in a smoke-filled environment to make a good try at escaping the space - 10 or 15 minutes IIRC. Are there civilian equivalents that anyone knows of? Worth investigating, do you think?

They advertise those disposable smoke hoods in the airline magazines. Not 10 minutes though. I might consider a dive mask and a 6cfm tank and reg. Those I do have.

 

[Portage_Bay]

EEBDs are available. A guick Google search "Buy EEBD" turns up sources. Regarding trying to use a tank, mask and regulator. Try putting it on in one of the smaller rooms of your boat and getting out the tightest exit from that room. And to be effective you need a setup for each person likely to be trapped in a space



EEBDs are very small. One can be mounted near each person's bed.

 

[BrianG]

Just read this harrowing story and it illustrates the importance of not relying on dry chem extinguishers. Fight fire with water. You're surrounded by it! https://sandpyper.blogspot.com/2016/07/sandpipers-final-voyage.html?showComment=1470470917951

 

[diver dave]

https://image.pushauction.com/0/0/4...ff7c/e396f994-6e52-4e0b-8ff4-5bf667e998be.jpg


$30 buys this. Even the model looks scared.

 

[psneeld]

Just read this harrowing story and it illustrates the importance of not relying on dry chem extinguishers. Fight fire with water. You're surrounded by it! https://sandpyper.blogspot.com/2016/07/sandpipers-final-voyage.html?showComment=1470470917951

Dont believe that for a second.

 

[BrianG]

Dont believe that for a second.

Why?

 

[psneeld]

Been on scene for many a boat fire, actually fought a couple...water without foam rarely does much except keeping adjacent boats from blistering.


Once fiberglass starts going hot..the whole boat seems to be a flammable liquid fire and without dry chem or foam...you are wasting your time and may be helping to spread the fire.



Small, initial class A fires...sure...but not after they get going. Plus I guess that guy never heard of an ABC dry chem.


Read more than one blog about one fire.

 

[diver dave]

The Forrestal story is good lesson on fuel fires. Water(bad), foam (good), and then water washing away foam(very bad). Water is good for cooling off ordinance though.

 

[BrianG]

Been on scene for many a boat fire, actually fought a couple...water without foam rarely does much except keeping adjacent boats from blistering.


Once fiberglass starts going hot..the whole boat seems to be a flammable liquid fire and without dry chem or foam...you are wasting your time and may be helping to spread the fire.



Small, initial class A fires...sure...but not after they get going. Plus I guess that guy never heard of an ABC dry chem.


Read more than one blog about one fire.

Fiberglass fires are not flammable liquid fires. AFFF is not indicated in fiberglass or any other class A fire. AFFF might be used in a fuel spill associated with a boat fire and a class A foam (basically soap) might be effective extinguishing the upholstery due to it's penetrating action, but generally, you put out fire with water. Class A foam is normally something used in overhaul-- not firefighting. At least that's how we did it in the largest Class 1 ISO rated department the country. My firefighting knowledge is not from blogs.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Let's take the Sandpiper fire apart and see what we as a group on TF can collectively learn.

I'm not passing myself off as the final authority. I'm trying to start an educational conversation. All input is welcomed.

I'm going to start by assuming that their assumption the fire was started by turbo blanket failure setting the wood beam over the engine on fire was correct.

My take away is that was a poor installation having the turbo shell close enough to a combustible material that a fire started so easily.

Shutting down the engine and electrics was good reaction due to the smoke in the vicinity of the engine space.

Stating that the extinguishing agent works solely by smothering the fire shows either a lack of understanding how an ABC fire extinguishing agent works or that they did not have the proper extinguishers. In addition to smothering the fire the agent in an ABC extinguisher interrupts the chemical reaction of the fire.

Two extinguishers worked, one did not. Three total is not enough. They checked the extinguishers before departure. How did they check them? Look at the gauges? Look at the date? Old extinguishers even showing good pressure should be replaced.

What was the failure? No pressure? Failed valve? Compacted agent? Never hurts to give a dry chem extinguisher a good shake or thump against something to break up compacted agent before pulling the trigger.

Water correctly applied can be very effective in extinguishing a class A fire. But.... they killed the electrics which means no water pumps so a garden hose or bucket near a faucet won't work.

A typical monohull sailboat puts the engine space and cockpit in the same area. The dingy was rigged off the stern. Once the interior became uninhabitable due to smoke the cockpit offered very little refuge. Then it became impossible to safely launch the dingy.

It's not clear where the ditch bag, if there was one, was stowed.

These things are more difficult to solve on a monohull sailboat than many of our trawlers.

Fires can go from a hint of smoke to "We need to get off of this boat!" faster than we can do anything about it. Search for the recent thread on the Mantee fire

A final comment on fiberglass fires. Yes, they are not classified as liquid fires. However once burning well the are very difficult to extinguish. Speaking from experience.

 

[Cheechako]

I just upgraded the alarms in my engine room with the 10 year lithium battery models. Pricey but will allow you to sleep through the night when on the hook because no more low-battery chirps.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

New here but retired Firefighter. I have a lot of experience with flammable liquid fires. I don't believe gasoline belongs on a boat. Use diesel for propulsion and propane for your OB and store the propane above deck and in a ventilated place. Other thing is bulk up on CO and smoke detectors and keep the batteries fresh. I know I know, the lotbat chirps are annoying. Keep what happened in Santa Cruz last October in mind. Change the batteries. And keep your extinguishers located in a visible and accessible place. btw, dry chem extinguishers make a terrible mess. It's the tool of choice on flammable liquids (stay upwind!) but we never used them on electrical fires. They do more damage than the damn fire. Try to de-energize the fire and use water. A small pump type extinguisher is a good idea.

Brian, thanks for your professional input. I too wish all boats could be diesel-powered; unfortunately gasoline is here for the foreseeable future for small craft. When I ran a boat yard encountering a bilge full of diesel because of a leak was not entirely unheard of, it was a major hassle to clean up, and hope the odor had not permeated the fabric, upholstery etc. Stepping aboard a vessel and finding a gasoline leak was an entirely different matter, it was downright nerve-wracking, including scrambling to ventilate and remove all ignition sources by killing power, hopefully with ignition-protected battery switches.

I've followed and written about the Dive Boat Fire in CA closely, https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/fire-are-you-and-your-vessel-prepared/ and am frustrated that we still have no clear cause. Are you implying that the smoke detectors on this vessel did not work because the batteries were dead? If so, I have not heard that.

I agree re. dry chem extinguishers, especially for small electrical fires, the evidence of which is shown in the video embedded in this article https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/portable-fire-extinguishers-not-all-are-created-equal/

(I'm in Taiwan, where they are attacking and repelling Corona like a foreign invader, I can't leave or enter my hotel, restaurant, train station or airport without having my temperature taken, everyone is wearing masks, and I mean everyone, my Uber driver was very proud to show me how he disinfects the hands of all riders with spray, and his car's door handles after each fare. I travel to Taiwan often and have always admired their industriousness and ability to mobilize in the face of emergencies, this is yet another example).

 

[psneeld]

While true that fiberglass may technically not be a liquid fire....as the resin get super hot and is on fire, unless my memory is totally gone, I believe I have seen it drip like burning plastic...I could be wrong...it could be other materials. It just I have seen it happen on several fires.


When I said "seemingly" it has been this dripping effect that I relate to burning liquid in that the fire can spread down much quicker than typical class A fires. That's one reason I like foam to fill up the lower spaces.


Once any of that oozing burning resin gets below, any oil or gas in the bilge becomes more easily ignited.



The last fire I was involved in I had to send the local FD back to their station for foam. It wasn't till foam was used that we got the fire out.

 

[BrianG]

Brian, thanks for your professional input. I too wish all boats could be diesel-powered; unfortunately gasoline is here for the foreseeable future for small craft. When I ran a boat yard encountering a bilge full of diesel because of a leak was not entirely unheard of, it was a major hassle to clean up, and hope the odor had not permeated the fabric, upholstery etc. Stepping aboard a vessel and finding a gasoline leak was an entirely different matter, it was downright nerve-wracking, including scrambling to ventilate and remove all ignition sources by killing power, hopefully with ignition-protected battery switches.

I've followed and written about the Dive Boat Fire in CA closely, https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/fire-are-you-and-your-vessel-prepared/ and am frustrated that we still have no clear cause. Are you implying that the smoke detectors on this vessel did not work because the batteries were dead? If so, I have not heard that.

I agree re. dry chem extinguishers, especially for small electrical fires, the evidence of which is shown in the video embedded in this article https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/portable-fire-extinguishers-not-all-are-created-equal/

(I'm in Taiwan, where they are attacking and repelling Corona like a foreign invader, I can't leave or enter my hotel, restaurant, train station or airport without having my temperature taken, everyone is wearing masks, and I mean everyone, my Uber driver was very proud to show me how he disinfects the hands of all riders with spray, and his car's door handles after each fare. I travel to Taiwan often and have always admired their industriousness and ability to mobilize in the face of emergencies, this is yet another example).

Hi Steve, The Conception tragedy hit close to home. I live in Santa Barbara, have dove with the Conception's sister ship and the fire was literally visible from the second floor of our house. The victims were reported to have died in their sleep from C0 poisoning. Reports I heard said they were still in their beds, not piled up at an exit as you might find at a night club fire. That suggests non functioning smoke/C0 detectors. Dunno if they didn't have batteries or if detectors were even present. The back up system was the roving watch. He was asleep. The means of egress were woefully inadequate based on the photos. The hatch was only accessible from the top of a bunk and the main stairway led not to the exterior but to the galley--the location of the fire's origin allegedly. Bad fires are always like this-- a combination of factors start falling like dominoes.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Hi Steve, The Conception tragedy hit close to home. I live in Santa Barbara, have dove with the Conception's sister ship and the fire was literally visible from the second floor of our house. The victims were reported to have died in their sleep from C0 poisoning. Reports I heard said they were still in their beds, not piled up at an exit as you might find at a night club fire. That suggests non functioning smoke/C0 detectors. Dunno if they didn't have batteries or if detectors were even present. The back up system was the roving watch. He was asleep. The means of egress were woefully inadequate based on the photos. The hatch was only accessible from the top of a bunk and the main stairway led not to the exterior but to the galley--the location of the fire's origin allegedly. Bad fires are always like this-- a combination of factors start falling like dominoes.

Brian, that is close to home, again such a tragedy. I just can't believe someone would not have escaped if an alarm went off. The (asleep) crew reported hearing no alarms at any time. The initial NTSB report (final not released yet) did not cite non-functioning alarms, and the vessel was recently inspected, including S alarms. Still, I don't know if the remains of the alarms were recovered. Having said that, I agree and have been suspicious this was an alarm issue almost from day 1. What I'd truly love it know is the make and model of the alarm, and which batteries were used, as I have found ionizing alarms to be far less sensitive to boat type fires than photoelectric, I always spec the latter.