EPIRB and AIS

[psneeld]

I give up. Yes I know that. But I also know over the last few years more and more sailors are now carrying personal AIS rather than gps only PLBs. Position isn’t everything. Getting the person out of the water quickly and safely is. Given just about every MFD gives you a AIS position on your screen in real time can you accept it greatly enhances odds of recovery of a live person? Even with drift or in a raft. In the past on a small boat you were taught to hit the MOB button, drop a MOM then search. Sure that’s still true but having the person in the water actively transmitting a AIS signal is a game changer in my mind. You can look at your MFD and go to where they are now.
PSN I’m not a professional SAR but I’ve been on the other side of this for 35+ years thinking about how to keep me and crew safe. Say whatever you want they definitely compliment each other.
Looking at the forest not one tree OP asked how to spend his money.
Have a handheld and ships DSC vhf and know how to use it
Get a personal AIS/gps unit for your self and crew
Get a raft appropriate for where you may find yourself.
Have a ditchbag appropriately stocked.
If offshore have some form of Satphone and ships epirb.
Then you’re covered for fire, sinking, medical emergency and MOB. Ships epirb doesn’t help much with MOB to my thinking.

As said we’re replacing our PLBs with the linked combo units as cruising kitty allows. Being coastal now I’m not replacing the ships epirb battery and will depend on the combo units. Now that’s my decision without any nitpicking. Given the ACR unit isn’t that expensive but still a boat buck for two think the OPs and my money is better spent there then on a ships epirb. Outside helicopter range definitely necessary but doesn’t sound like he’s crossing oceans. Have fun nitpicking.[/QUOTE

Don't give up...but before you go, reread post #3 (if you ever did). Think I posted they compliment each other right off the bat. Post #27 reaffirms their combined usefulness.

No one doubts your savvy as an offshore skipper, we all know how different it can be than inshore, but lets not forget the similarities either.

If I nitpick it's because I believe someone is making a misleading statement that taken by someone else that could cloud their judgement on skippering or buying equipment. If you have ever noticed, I usually don't get into the many BS "feel good" discussions or at least bow out after I think I have made my point about correcting an error/misstatement.

That's why on a lot of tech stuff i always recommend a lot more research that what is usually posted on many these threads due to everything from just different points of view to flat out incorrect information.

You may not agree with many things I say, but if it's safety at sea, I can only say that the devil is in the details. Sometimes they separate between survival and something worse. I see too many skippers applying knowledge they have read and use it like a cookbook rather than stepping far enough back to see the big picture.

 

[psneeld]

Use case turns out to be interesting, I think. For a PLB, I'd really want AIS. Especially for a race. The person who goes in the drink is right near a bunch of boats paying attention. The goal is for the vessel to find the nearby person.

If the case of a long delivery or cruise or Bahamas crossing in the event of a major medical issue or vessel issue, the goal is to find the vessel and it isn't known if other vessels are nearby and that helicopter has to find its way there. It isn't clearnto me how much sending the GPS location via AIS is helping any more than sending it by satellite. The officials get it and can use it or relay it.

AIS PLBs are great. They are also on my list. If I had a sail boat, I'd have a bunch already.

Just my thinking -- among much thinking around here!

In rescues the old saying "location, location, location" is the most important part. Right after that, usually follows "time, time and time" to rescue. Looks like the AIS can be a great addition for self rescue by the vessel for a MOB or assistance from any other AIS equipped vessel nearby.

From what I am reading, the AIS equipped GPIRB and PLB send out a signal that will appear as a distress signal with position that will appear immediately on chartplotters set up for that.

A common complaint about many distress broadcasts by the USCG is a position isn't all that useful to a lone good sam watchstander who couldn't write it down fast enough or calculate its guesstimate distance from the potential responder's location. If broadcast and on a chartplotter...a quick zoom out or GOTO function (if plotter has that capability) would show that watchstander of a good sam vessel whether the distance is worthy of a response without the delay of going through the SAR system.

 

[Hippocampus]

Returning to the OP. He’s not crossing oceans. He appears to be worried about expenditures.
If replacing a ships epirb no question the current generation is head and shoulders above the past. Given cost of battery replacement don’t think it’s cost effective to replace batteries on either ship or personal devices. Rather think it’s worth the additional few hundred dollars to move to current tech.

In use with a dedicated mast head antenna was able to send and receive AIS for around 15-20 nm in open ocean settings. This was utilizing a gps hockey puck on a rail about 5 feet above the water. This is congruent with published data. This was true for A, B and B+. Once within range of land based stations distance limitations weren’t a concern.

The OP will not be in open ocean settings. Given antenna height isn’t limiting like with AIS the gps component should function adequately in a combined unit. The AIS component will aid final approach.

The handheld device is portable. Line of sight could be improved by going up to the fly bridge or standing on the house or attaching to a flag halyard. I don’t know but think 1nm is pessimistic. During MOB drills our rate of failure to find buoys, balloons flags on floats whatever was poor. Sure no problem on a calm sunny day but not so much at night, or even modest 3-5’. Was taught during MOB one person is assigned to do nothing other than look at the MOB. Think that’s very unlikely to happen. You probably won’t see the person go over. As a mom and pop hard to run the boat and watch a MOB. Even with crew and you stop the boat then wake up crew there will be a time you can’t watch. There’s an old saying “anyone can make a boat go but it takes a sailor to stop one.” Power has a great advantage here but it may still be awhile before you’re cognizant of the problem.

Even if just 1nm I think having AIS for SAR units or the mothership to have is a huge advance.

A ships unit is around the same price
https://www.amazon.com/McMurdo-G8-SmartFind-Manual-23-001-001A/dp/B07FBK7VCM/?tag=bsafe06-20
But it will sit in a bracket no on you.

So possibly could buy a something like that for the boat and one ACR combo personal unit if you set a rule no one goes outside without having the personal one on them. But knowing that complacency sets in worry that rule will be broken. So for his use pattern would rather see two combo personal units. It’s rare at night for more than two to be up and common for there only being two on the boat.

I know you can’t buy safety but agree having a ships and personal devices for everyone is the ideal. But the basic question is for a coastal/ nearshore boat is the 5 1/2 hundred dollar ships epirb really necessary given advances in personal units? For present we’re pure coastal and within 50nm at all times so for us I think not. We have 4 pfds with tethers. Reality is we no longer use the tethers. But if doing a transit in anything but the the most benign conditions we’re pretty good above putting on a PFD if going outside. Even if you bang your head the ACR units go off if the PFD inflates. Maybe not the crouch straps and only over our shoulders. They’re stored in the open in the pilot house. How about for the OP? What should he do?

As an aside have had the rolled paper ones go off randomly. Once during storage in the house. Once while working on the foredeck with rain and green water. Scared the fecal matter out of me and strained my neck. Now have only hydrostatic ones.

 

[OldDan1943]

Perhaps we should include discussing a “dead man switch’”???

 

[twistedtree]

These rescue devices serve two purposes


1) Alert people that you have a problem


2) Aid people in actually finding you.


EPIRB does a great job at #1, and a pretty good job at #2


AIS enhances #1 by alerting all in-range AIS boats who would otherwise not know about the EPIRB.


But more importantly, AIS significantly improves #2 by providing a live pinpoint on your location, drift direction and speed, etc. EPIRB may give coordinates, but good luck finding someone in the dark, in rough seas. AIS let's any boat responding go directly to the current distress rather than having to search an area for someone who has drifted since the last position report, etc. etc.



Adding AIS to a PLB is similarly critical. If someone falls overboard, the most likely, and often only boat that is going to rescue them is the boat they fell off of - but only if they know you went over, and can then find you. AIS will alert the helm right away, and take you right to them. At night, in rough conditions, it's probably the only way you will recover the person, other than sheer luck.

 

[STB]

I haven't researched these a ton, but in what I've seen the DSC within PLBs has been 0.5W and the AIS in PLBs and EPIRBS has been 1W...as compared to 2W for Class B AIS, 5W for class B AIS, and 12.5W for class A AIS and 1W for a small hand-held VHF radio in low-power mode.

 

[STB]

Twisted tree, some PLBs use DSC vs AIS, which has a broader compatibility, I suppose. The 0.5W has concerned me, given my luck with 1W handheld in harbors and marinas. But a digital signal is different than analog voice an obstructions might be less from.a high VHF antenna down to water. Dunno'.

 

[Hippocampus]

“ if the case of a long delivery or cruise or Bahamas crossing in the event of a major medical issue or vessel issue, the goal is to find the vessel and it isn't known if other vessels are nearby and that helicopter has to find its way there. It isn't clearnto me how much sending the GPS location via AIS is helping any more than sending it by satellite. The officials get it and can use it or relay it.”

Land based stations in Florida and the Bahamas not the same as open ocean. As TT most elegantly points out still have the issue of finding the person quickly. Drift a particular issue in Florida straits. Also generally want land fall in daylight so unless you’re on a big center console with quads so some of it is during the night.
(7-8kt boat 12-14h)
Perhaps PSN has some insight. Doing a brief internet search there’s numbers for everyone but not specifically for folks doing coastal/nearshore on cruising power. What’s the breakdown for reasons for SAR calls? What %age for MOB, fire, sinking, med emergency, loss of propulsion?

 

[rslifkin]

If the case of a long delivery or cruise or Bahamas crossing in the event of a major medical issue or vessel issue, the goal is to find the vessel and it isn't known if other vessels are nearby and that helicopter has to find its way there. It isn't clearnto me how much sending the GPS location via AIS is helping any more than sending it by satellite. The officials get it and can use it or relay it.

The location via AIS is the final step in getting to you quickly / easily in my mind. The location sent to SAR authorities is critical, but once any resource that can receive AIS gets close, they can now see your location in near-realtime on a chartplotter rather than having to get any updates via the SAR agency and plot your location manually.

 

[Hippocampus]

Yes as stated in my response to the quote I don’t think this is a concern for Florida to Bahamas.you are never more than 50nm from land on that trip. Not the same as open ocean.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

There is also one PLB/AIS approved in the US that just went on the market: ResQLink AIS Personal Locator Beacon - ACR ARTEX. The PLB capability (same as EPIRB but with less battery life) alerts the SARSAT/COSPAS system and will provide a distress alert to the appropriate SAR system. The AIS capability transmits the local VHF-FM alert that can be picked up by nearby AIS receivers. Thus you have what is in effect a "global alert" and a "local alert" functionality. The unit also transmits on the aircraft distress UHF frequency which provides a homing signal for SAR aircraft. ACR has the only one so far but I am sure the other PLB manufacturers will get there's soon! The PLB/AIS is also designed to be attached to a lifejacket.

I think these are a game changer. I encountered a demo model at the Marine Equipment Trade Show in Amsterdam in November, and was able to talk to an ACR rep for some time about it. For PFD use, I believe the combo PLB/AIS makes great sense, I plan to switch from a stand alone PLB to one of these for my personal gear.

There is another manufacturer, ACR partner in the UK, it's the same product, simply rebranded.

Does it make sense to have an AIS built into an EPIRB too? Why not, it enables local, non-professional assets to home in on your signal, albeit a short range one.

I wrote it up, and several other products from METS, for ProBoat, here's an excerpt...

Resqlink AIS Personal Locator Beacon: Personal locator beacons or PLBs have been around for years, I literally take one with me every time I travel. More recently personal AIS rescue devices have also become popular. These two devices are at opposite ends of the rescue spectrum, the former is satellite based, sending an alert to a rescue coordination center thousands of miles away, while the later is local, sending a short-range signal via the Automatic Identification System (it’s VHF or line of sight range, albeit short as the “transmitter” is at water level), which is usually reserved for vessels. The dilemma has been deciding which to rely on professional albeit potentially far away assistance, or rescue from the local vessel. ACRs, Resqlink now provides both global and local rescue options in a single unit. The unit is oblong and narrow, it can be worn on foul weather gear or a PFD (it can be triggered automatically by an inflatable PFD). Using Near Field Communication or NFC, the Resqlink can be polled using an app and smart phone, to confirm it is working properly, without wearing down its battery with conventional testing. If you are in the water awaiting rescue it’s nice to know someone is on the way, the Resqulink affords users this peace of mind using RLS or Return Link Service, which acknowledges, with a flashing blue light, that the signal has been received by a rescue coordination center, Finally, the Resqlink also includes both visible and infrared strobes to speed rescue once support assets are on scene. ACR ACR Electronics, Inc. 5757 Ravenswood Road, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33312. +1 954 981 3333 Home - ACR ARTEX

 

[Mark Laurnen]

I have the McMurdo EPIRB with AIS. Get both, and hope you won’t need either.

 

[danderer]

My approach is:

- My wife has an AIS/Strobe on her jacket. If she goes over I expect to be her best hope. This combination will allow me to locate her at short range. At night without these missing her by even 100' could be fatal. If I need more help I'll set off the vessel EPIRB.

- I have the same AIS/Strobe on my jacket plus a PLB (for those times I single-hand).

I would have gone with combined units had they been available a couple years ago.

 

[bumpkin]

If you are looking at your expenditures not buying an epirb is an excellent place to start. Your VHF radio should broadcast about 15-20 miles. So if you are staying close to shore you don't need an epirb. If you are going to make an occasional trip out from land you can rent one at a very reasonable rate.

VHF is very useful. Listen in on 16 and you can find rescues/monitoring going on most days. It is very interesting.

If you are single handling you need to have a good MOB system. I think that would be much better than an epirb.

Mike

 

[Statistical]

I think these are a game changer. I encountered a demo model at the Marine Equipment Trade Show in Amsterdam in November, and was able to talk to an ACR rep for some time about it. For PFD use, I believe the combo PLB/AIS makes great sense, I plan to switch from a stand alone PLB to one of these for my personal gear.

There is another manufacturer, ACR partner in the UK, it's the same product, simply rebranded.

Does it make sense to have an AIS built into an EPIRB too? Why not, it enables local, non-professional assets to home in on your signal, albeit a short range one.

I wrote it up, and several other products from METS, for ProBoat, here's an excerpt...

Resqlink AIS Personal Locator Beacon: Personal locator beacons or PLBs have been around for years, I literally take one with me every time I travel. More recently personal AIS rescue devices have also become popular. These two devices are at opposite ends of the rescue spectrum, the former is satellite based, sending an alert to a rescue coordination center thousands of miles away, while the later is local, sending a short-range signal via the Automatic Identification System (it’s VHF or line of sight range, albeit short as the “transmitter” is at water level), which is usually reserved for vessels. The dilemma has been deciding which to rely on professional albeit potentially far away assistance, or rescue from the local vessel. ACRs, Resqlink now provides both global and local rescue options in a single unit. The unit is oblong and narrow, it can be worn on foul weather gear or a PFD (it can be triggered automatically by an inflatable PFD). Using Near Field Communication or NFC, the Resqlink can be polled using an app and smart phone, to confirm it is working properly, without wearing down its battery with conventional testing. If you are in the water awaiting rescue it’s nice to know someone is on the way, the Resqulink affords users this peace of mind using RLS or Return Link Service, which acknowledges, with a flashing blue light, that the signal has been received by a rescue coordination center, Finally, the Resqlink also includes both visible and infrared strobes to speed rescue once support assets are on scene. ACR ACR Electronics, Inc. 5757 Ravenswood Road, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33312. +1 954 981 3333 Home - ACR ARTEX

Yeah we just got a pair of these. Pretty much best of both worlds. Really no reason to not get them over AIS only or PLB only devices other than cost and I expect in time cost will come down to be comparable to single purpose devices.

AIS requires a boat (yours or another) over the horizon but is your best bet to being resuced quickly. PLB has global range but response time can be 2-24 hours depending on conditions and location. Now you don't have to pick you get both.

Another nice thing about these is they have RLS (Return Link Signal) which lets you know your PLB emergency message was received by the sat network.

We won't replace our EPIRB until it reaches end of life but when we do it will also be a combo AIS+EPIRB model.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

That's all good to hear. Where did you get yours?