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Old 03-05-2020, 07:03 AM   #81
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Most of us likely remember Bshillam's Vancouver boat purchase and delivery to Portland thread of two or so months ago. Lots of good back and forth regarding weather windows and timing. Bshillam did it right and had a relatively uneventful trip.

The poor souls on the DF 44 embarked on the aftermath of a few ferocious storms where winds at times in later February were clocked at 70 knots. The winds had dropped but not so much the seas where offshore buoys were showing 10 to 12' close spaced waves at end of February. A better understanding of their travel dates could pin down the exact buoy measured sea conditions leading up to the abandon ship time. But wow, that DF held up well all things considering.
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Old 03-05-2020, 07:13 AM   #82
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Regarding west coast weather in the Winter, I was planning on a departure window of 3/14 to 3/16 to head up to Santa Cruz Island from San Diego. The models were looking great, until this morning. I will stay put for another week.
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Old 03-05-2020, 07:57 AM   #83
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Yes agree, a proper full size parachute sea anchor to hold the head directly to the weather with minimal drift is essential equipment for serious offshore motorboat cruisers.
Anybody that has experienced propulsion failure, working in a hot engine room while the boat is rolling its gunwales under will relate to this concept.

I remember going aboard Scott and Mary Flanders "Egret" (N46) after an extensive sea crossing, with the big parachute always ready to deploy.
I was under the impression heaving to at an angle to the sea anchor would be preferred??
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Old 03-05-2020, 01:09 PM   #84
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I was under the impression heaving to at an angle to the sea anchor would be preferred??
Maybe a personal thing, but with my parachute anchor (as opposed to a drogue), any angle beyond directly into the waves that promotes a roll factor is not what I prefer, pitching is a lot easier to cope with.
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:12 PM   #85
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I was under the impression heaving to at an angle to the sea anchor would be preferred??
That may be more of a sailboat thing, as when the sails are rigged to heave to, the boat is at an angle to the wind/waves. In fact, I haven't heard the term "heave to" applied to power boats.
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:39 PM   #86
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That may be more of a sailboat thing, as when the sails are rigged to heave to, the boat is at an angle to the wind/waves. In fact, I haven't heard the term "heave to" applied to power boats.
They most certainly do. Even ships do it. And you can certainly do it with a drogue on a powerboat. The idea is that it creates a slick on the weather side of the boat that prevents waves from breaking. It is much preferred to lying now to where steep seas will cause pounding and potential equipment failure due to extreme fluctuations in the load.
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Old 03-06-2020, 10:09 AM   #87
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I was under the impression heaving to at an angle to the sea anchor would be preferred??
Maybe a personal thing, but with my parachute anchor (as opposed to a drogue), any angle beyond directly into the waves that promotes a roll factor is not what I prefer, pitching is a lot easier to cope with.

I think there is some truth in the middle here. I agree that the boat feels better when you take a wave square on the nose. Taking it at a 45 introduces some roll, which is less comfortable.

I was under the impression that from a technique perspective, springing the parachute prevents the bow from getting stuffed in a large steep face as can happen if you take the way on square. The parachute, like any anchor prevents the bow from rising quickly and easily and the bow can get stuffed in steep, tall faces.

I believe the technique of springing the parachute is to compromise some comfort (still better than rolling beam to) for safety.

Obviously if the waves aren't that large, springing the anchor isn't necessary.
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Old 03-06-2020, 10:47 AM   #88
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I believe the technique of springing the parachute is to compromise some comfort (still better than rolling beam to) for safety.

Obviously if the waves aren't that large, springing the anchor isn't necessary.
Springing the anchor to a 45 degree angle is to INCREASE comfort. The idea being that the "slick" or "wake" of the boat to the WEATHER side of the boat produces a shadow where waves flatten and do not break. Large ships do this much like a sailboat....except they use rudder and a little steam. Just the right amount of rudder and throttle and the boat holds at an angle to the weather. The boat is still moving through the water due to leeway. And the subsequent "wake" smooths the water to weather. Have you ever followed someone close astern because they are breaking the weather/waves ahead....same deal here. The deeper the keel, the more the effect. Obviously a planing boat would not benefit much as it is mostly a flat bottom. But I boat like a Nordhavn with a deep keel, it will help. Google "heaving to" and read about it. It is a common storm tactic....granted, mostly used by sailboats. But it is 95% sailboats out the cruising the oceans.
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Old 03-06-2020, 10:51 AM   #89
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One of the reasons vessels sometimes need to quarter into the seas is to shorten the effective length of the vessel to reduce hog and sag stresses in very heavy seas - not so much a problem in rec vessels. If we needed to ease the ride in destroyers, we never hit them head on if for no other reason than to avoid direct impingement of waves onto the forward gus, which are not all that watertight. But at five knots we could quarter into just about anything.
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Old 03-06-2020, 10:53 AM   #90
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One of the reasons vessels sometimes need to quarter into the seas is to shorten the effective length of the vessel to reduce hog and sag stresses in very heavy seas - not so much a problem in rec vessels. If we needed to ease the ride in destroyers, we never hit them head on if for no other reason than to avoid direct impingement of waves onto the forward gus, which are not all that watertight. But at five knots we could quarter into just about anything.
That same idea can make the pitching less violent (albeit with a little bit of roll added) in steep, close together waves. Particularly on a planing hull boat or anything else with a lot of buoyancy forward where it will follow the shape of the waves strongly rather than letting the bow dig in a bit and rise more slowly.
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:32 AM   #91
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IMO, the biggest failure of boaters is to recognize their limitations. The second biggest failure is to operate to a schedule. If one has to think about whether to go or not, reef or not, turnaround or not, it is generally too late.
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:32 AM   #92
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Wow...big difference in hogging and sagging ships and riding a sea anchor in 12 footers in a 50 something footer.


Sure both techniques are applicable...but not all the time and certainly not every vessel.


John...gotta tell you...have seen many a pleasure and small fishing boat lie directly ahull in beam seas where they are being blown downwind. I don't think I have ever seen the effect mitigate the waves.



Sure a huge ship creates a lee in waves up to a certain size....only makes sense that a 1100 foot ship, 60 feet deep is going to act like a breakwater in up tp 20 something waves....beyond that or steeper...doubt you will see many lie ahull.


Directly into breakers or at an angle is again going to be dependent on steepness, overall size compared to the vessel etc...etc.. also powering into waves is different than laying to a chute.


In this case, 10-15 foot waves...laying to a chute may have been the trick as it really wasn't survival tactics and may have allowed rest/recuperation of the crew...but alas we may never know near enough facts.
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:46 AM   #93
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John...gotta tell you...have seen many a pleasure and small fishing boat lie directly ahull in beam seas where they are being blown downwind. I don't think I have ever seen the effect mitigate the waves.



In this case, 10-15 foot waves...laying to a chute may have been the trick as it really wasn't survival tactics and may have allowed rest/recuperation of the crew...but alas we may never know near enough facts.
I absolutely positively said nothing about lying directly ahull. That is about the worst thing to do. Lying ahull is synonmous with giving up and leaving the boat to fend for itself.

And I will agree with your last assessment....although lying to a chute at an angle.

And you are misunderstanding me. We are not talking about a lee BEHIND the ship. We are talking about a slick on the weather side of the ship. A vessel that is properly hove to will be making leeway only....and this creates a protective slick on the WEATHER side of the boat.
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:02 PM   #94
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I absolutely positively said nothing about lying directly ahull. That is about the worst thing to do. Lying ahull is synonmous with giving up and leaving the boat to fend for itself.

And I will agree with your last assessment....although lying to a chute at an angle.

I used ahull in my example as that would provide the maximum profile for a slick and also probably make the boat blow the fastest downwind.


I understand the concept of angling vessels over wave for various reasons...just not sure that lying on a sea anchor is one of them except when dead on the bow wasn't working either.



It would take some interesting conditions to angle a vessel so that it presented enough beam to the seas yet blow straight enough downwind that the combo of slick and sea anchor would effectively reduce the waves.
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:09 PM   #95
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It would take some interesting conditions to angle a vessel so that it presented enough beam to the seas yet blow straight enough downwind that the combo of slick and sea anchor would effectively reduce the waves.
It would not take "interesting conditions"....only a seasoned prepared captain....
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Old 03-07-2020, 07:42 AM   #96
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It will be interesting to find out is there were any underlying issues, the coast guard video of the rescue shows the boat had a list for some reason.
Also look at the pic of the boat on the beach it appears to be a boat that needed basic maintenance.

It's not a good idea be headed down the coast at this time of year unless the boat was pretty much perfect. The boat appears to have a dirty bottom, barnacle buildup on the shaft that can be seen and just appears to be a bit run down. As the couple found out that coast can be totally unforgiving.. especially in winter. Just the dirty bottom, props and shafts may have cost them a knot or two and put them off on their arrival time and into changing weather and tides. But.. if they were accepting of the conditions of the running gear they may have neglected common maintenance in the E.R. also.

I am definitely hypothesizing and I may be totally off base and the boat could be a goldplater in the engine room, time will tell.

On a side note, I have such deep respect for the West Coast , especially in winter that the week before last I turned down the delivery of a brand new fast power cat from the PNW to Ensenada. A respected skipper did the trip and made it from Bellingham to Ventura in 2.5 days with two enroute fuel stops!. He planned right and had flat water for the entire trip. As much as I love those trips.. my respect for that coast and being pushed up against a trip to Florida where I am now made it a easy trip to turn down.
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Thanks for posting this; I was wondering if Island Fever was stabilized. (Apparently, she’s not.). A DF44 is very close to a full-displacement hull and without stabilizers can be rolly in moderate conditions. If this boat was stabilized, it might not have made much difference in a bar-crossing attempt, but might have allowed them to stay offshore more comfortably until conditions at the bar improved—assuming they still had propulsion. I’m also curious about the list to port. If they started out trimmed that way due to fuel/water imbalance that would be revealing.

I suspect they’d had more than enough and the forecast for deteriorating—not improving—conditions broke the camel’s back. But, with all respect, none of us know what we’re talking about in regard to their decision-making at this point, myself included.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:19 AM   #97
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Is it just me, or could that boat look a lot worse for what she just went through?
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Old 03-08-2020, 07:27 AM   #98
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The fact that there is no obvious hull breach or ripped of canvas can be very deceiving. Lord knows what is going on with the port side running gear - it may be mangled and pushed through the hull when the boat landed on it, or not. It will be interesting to know how or if salvage will be possible. For instance is there access to the beach for a crane, or will it be possible to drag it back into the water via a dug channel in the sand?
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:01 AM   #99
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There's most likely some kind of running gear damage on the port side. But from what I can tell in the small picture, that rudder is still in place and mostly at the correct angle.

For the most part, it looks like the thing was placed on the beach rather gracefully, all things considered.
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:44 PM   #100
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There's most likely some kind of running gear damage on the port side. But from what I can tell in the small picture, that rudder is still in place and mostly at the correct angle.

For the most part, it looks like the thing was placed on the beach rather gracefully, all things considered.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that boat didn't get there "gracefully."
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