Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-24-2022, 08:28 AM   #21
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2,203
What goes on with rack storage or trailer boats wouldn’t seem to be the focus of this discussion. Rather the issue of concern for most here is trawlers or similar vessels that meet documentation requirements.

More specifically boats in the 40-55’ range. Had a interesting conversation with a manager at IGY. Big money to be made with large vessels. More work done servicing by the yard. More systems to service. More ancillaries consumed. Small boats take up less floor space and use fewer in-house services but for unit area make up for it in volume. It’s in the middle there’s less profit. More self servicing using products bought outside the facility or done by outside vendors. Lower margin.

Used to be yards preferred power to sail. More profit per unit area of berthing. That has shifted as sail is now as complex as power as regards components and servicing needs. But the middle being still the least profitable was my takeaway from talking with him.

Think that will be reflected in new construction. There’s a noticeable shift to selling “lifestyle “. Straight working yards are being phased out. Now you see yards with a restaurant, pool, manicured grounds and multiple non essential lifestyle improvements. You go to a restaurant to eat the food. They make the money on the drinks. Same is occurring with marinas. I’m concerned about the quality of the dock, shore power, fresh water and service techs. But that’s not what’s being sold. So I’m stuck paying for “ lifestyle “ as well. I can only hope enough people spend on “lifestyle “ that small and midsized berthing persists. So the dock queens serve a function for me not to be discounted. My favorite yard was 3/4 commercial and scuzzy. But the work was extremely high quality. Prices reasonable. They explained what they were doing and why. You learned and they even gave good advice so you could DIY. You either went to your boat and worked on it or went off cruising. It wasn’t a social spot to hang out. Now it’s a popular bar, pick up spot, mediocre restaurant, large area of rack storage, some slips and a fuel dock. The working trawlers and lobster boats have left. In season more tourists than boaters in the area. Finding parking is a chore.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2022, 08:35 AM   #22
Member
 
City: SAINT MARYS
Vessel Name: Final Draft
Vessel Model: Albin 28TE
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 14
New Marina in St Marys, GA

A totally new marina is being developed in St Marys, GA a couple of miles off the Atlantic ICW. It is part of the "Cumberland Inlet" project by Jacoby Development. There will be dry stack storage as well as a new keyhole basin with 160 slips on the North River. The marina is to be managed by Oasis Marinas. This development is on a 750 acre brown field site of a defunct paper mill. Jacoby Development has previously developed a brown field site in Atlanta, GA now known as Atlantic Station into a major upscale multiuse area. (Disclaimer: I have no affiliation of any type with Jacoby Development.)
Major advantages of a marina in St Marys include: direct access with no bridges or other obstructions to the St Marys all weather inlet, direct access to the ICW, on the Georgia side of the FL-GA border which changes ratings for some insurance companies, and small friendly town only 7-10 miles from I-95.
hatchetjoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2022, 10:47 AM   #23
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
What goes on with rack storage or trailer boats wouldn’t seem to be the focus of this discussion. Rather the issue of concern for most here is trawlers or similar vessels that meet documentation requirements.

.
No one mentioned trailer boats but rack storage is definitely connected as it frees up a lot of slips. It is part of the total picture and availability of marina storage. Trawlers compete for total space and dry storage while targeting a freeing of space for larger boats, also frees space for trawlers over 40'. Smaller trawlers are excellent candidates for dry rack storage as facilities built today are more able to handle larger boats.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2022, 11:29 AM   #24
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2,203
Accepted. However what I’ve seen to date has been modified forklifts. Seen rather large center consoles but weight remains a restriction so few FD or even larger SD boats in racks. We ran a center console we used for striper and some fly fishing kept on the racks while we had a sailboat. It was surely convenient. Thought about giving up the ability to fly fish by putting a tower on it. Although a small boat was told a lousy idea by the yard as height was another restriction on whether it could be rack stored. Other problem was the yard wanted rack stored boats to leave ASAP once in the water. They had very limited in water dock space for them. Would think that would be inconvenient for trawler owners.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2022, 11:57 AM   #25
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Accepted. However what I’ve seen to date has been modified forklifts. Seen rather large center consoles but weight remains a restriction so few FD or even larger SD boats in racks. We ran a center console we used for striper and some fly fishing kept on the racks while we had a sailboat. It was surely convenient. Thought about giving up the ability to fly fish by putting a tower on it. Although a small boat was told a lousy idea by the yard as height was another restriction on whether it could be rack stored. Other problem was the yard wanted rack stored boats to leave ASAP once in the water. They had very limited in water dock space for them. Would think that would be inconvenient for trawler owners.
Many now use various forms of travel lifts. There are not totally automated units too. Keep in mind that if space is freed by storing other boats in racks, then that frees space for trawlers that may not have a usage style compatible with rack storage.

Before we moved to the lake, I had rack storage and a wet slip as I wanted a space to dock during the day and stay out late and use all weekend.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 06:09 AM   #26
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2,203
Yup have seen those and various forms of automated moveable racks inside the storage building. Agree it has freed up space for other uses. Still, since I’ve started boating berthing has been a limiting factor. To the point lack of local availability and expense impacts the boat buying decision. My feeling (no formal evidence) is some don’t boat or only charter due to this state of affairs.
In America’s Home Town (Plymouth MA) the waiting list for a mooring has always been decades. There’s fewer moorings for boat = or >40’ there. Same in Marion so suspect commonly true elsewhere. Wait times have only gotten longer. Towns rather put in moorings with smaller swing diameters so they can pack more in.
We used to use a hauling service in Mattapoisett. You’d bring your boat to that town. They’d haul it and store it on huge fields a few miles in land in that town. Got around the expense and limited availability of seasonal storage to some extent but in water remained a difficulty.
My impression is at least for the northeast things have gotten much worst. Berthing expense has skyrocketed. Storage needs to planned up to a year in advance. Think it’s worst everywhere we go. We’ve booked our Xmas storage in the Bahamas already having been told if we don’t there be no space available where we want to stay.
Weird world. It was cheaper to book a slip for a season than for a few occasional weeks in R.I. We won’t occupy that slip for more than half the time paid for but needed that reliable berthing during the summer so we could also spend land and family time ashore. Most people aren’t full time cruisers so reliable berthing is a big deal.
So totally agree with the implied premise of the OPs original question. There’s not enough berthing and moorings. It’s gotten worst and more expensive. The middle of the market is hardest hit. Economic forces favor small boats and large but not the middle. This is being enhanced by consolidation of the marina industry. Please share your personal experiences to support or deny this impression.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 08:37 AM   #27
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 9,638
I am in Waterways Marina, about 1075 of the AICW. There are 2 story condos surrounding the basin. When the condos were first built, the slips were offered to the condo buyers. Seems the condo buyers were not interested. No boat, liked the view of the pond. Boats moved in, blocked the view, from the condos. The condo folks started to complain, no view, diesel smell, workers on the boats etc. They wanted, I think to throw out the boat owners. HA HA, that did not work. I own 2 slips, rent one, park my boat in the other. The original marina builder had plans to put in another dock and slips off of that. The owner waited too long to start…. Seems their permission approval expired and when they were back for a renewal, the EPA folks said, no way, so we are limited to 100 slips and a huge basin. SMILE
__________________
The meek will inherit the earth but, the brave will inherit the seas.
OldDan1943 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 10:42 AM   #28
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Yup have seen those and various forms of automated moveable racks inside the storage building. Agree it has freed up space for other uses. Still, since I’ve started boating berthing has been a limiting factor. To the point lack of local availability and expense impacts the boat buying decision. My feeling (no formal evidence) is some don’t boat or only charter due to this state of affairs.
In America’s Home Town (Plymouth MA) the waiting list for a mooring has always been decades. There’s fewer moorings for boat = or >40’ there. Same in Marion so suspect commonly true elsewhere. Wait times have only gotten longer. Towns rather put in moorings with smaller swing diameters so they can pack more in.
We used to use a hauling service in Mattapoisett. You’d bring your boat to that town. They’d haul it and store it on huge fields a few miles in land in that town. Got around the expense and limited availability of seasonal storage to some extent but in water remained a difficulty.
My impression is at least for the northeast things have gotten much worst. Berthing expense has skyrocketed. Storage needs to planned up to a year in advance. Think it’s worst everywhere we go. We’ve booked our Xmas storage in the Bahamas already having been told if we don’t there be no space available where we want to stay.
Weird world. It was cheaper to book a slip for a season than for a few occasional weeks in R.I. We won’t occupy that slip for more than half the time paid for but needed that reliable berthing during the summer so we could also spend land and family time ashore. Most people aren’t full time cruisers so reliable berthing is a big deal.
So totally agree with the implied premise of the OPs original question. There’s not enough berthing and moorings. It’s gotten worst and more expensive. The middle of the market is hardest hit. Economic forces favor small boats and large but not the middle. This is being enhanced by consolidation of the marina industry. Please share your personal experiences to support or deny this impression.
Omg, I'm been to Plymouth but America's Home Town? lol. 1620 vs. 1607 vs 1513. Let the wars begin.

Removing small boats from the wet slips will impact the middle. You want to solve Plymouth Harbor, built a dry storage unit for 400 boats.

I agree certain areas have problems. In New England boating is seasonal and difficult to justify marina builds. The rates they would need to charge aren't those boaters are currently willing to pay. They really need annual rates for half year seasons. Still space availability has fluctuated. Marina people I've talked to say there were empty slips from 2010-2014 after no availability in 2003-2008. I think your impression of things being much worse are true impressions but one must be careful as to when they're comparing. Much worse than 8 to 10 years ago, yes. Much worse than 25 years ago, yes. Much worse than 15 years ago, perhaps in some places, but generally not.

I agree with you on moorings. Never found one we could use (other than Catalina). I think it's not a coincidence that the two areas that seem most short of slips are those with mooing fields, RI/MA and the Puget Sound area.

I want to share examples of two dry storage units located very close to each other in Fort Lauderdale. F3 can handle 46' LOA, 20' Height, 30,000 pounds and is all automated by lift, no fork lift, hurricane rated to 170 mph. Port also uses a cradle and one wall handles to 42' while the other handles 52' but still the 30,000 pound limit and as a 10 year old facility only rated to 135 mph, which is still above anything ever to hit Fort Lauderdale. Why not similar in NE? NE boaters wouldn't be willing to pay the price. That simple. They make sense in Fort Lauderdale where marinas are $25 to 45 per month and wet slips require 12-15 bottom cleanings per year. Again, it's economics. Plymouth Harbor has, to my knowledge, only one full service marina in Safe Harbor Plymouth which was a Brewer property. Very small with 100 wet slips and 60 dry. The dry can only handle up to 23' and the wet slips are mostly 40' and less with a few up to 50' but larger only on end tie. However, within 50 miles there are available slips. Just not right there. And within 50 miles a lot of larger slips.

A season being easier than a few weeks is true most places. It's either transient or seasonal rates, but few marinas willing to commit to weeks or months in advance at anything other than transient rates. Not going to do discounted short term rentals in peak season. Christmas storage in Bahamas, of course it's booked in advance. Peak season, holiday?

I don't argue that at various places there are shortages, but I do contend when economically beneficial there will be new marinas built. And I would not build in Plymouth but might in Boston or Newport.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 11:06 AM   #29
Guru
 
backinblue's Avatar
 
City: Stratford, CT
Vessel Name: Blue Moon
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 355
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
OIn New England boating is seasonal and difficult to justify marina builds. The rates they would need to charge aren't those boaters are currently willing to pay. They really need annual rates for half year seasons.
B, I don't understand your point here. Yes boating in New England is seasonal and so are the marina fees. Most commonly, you pay a summer slip fee and a winter land storage fee. Combine those together and you have your annual fee that most boaters are willing to pay judging by the fact that most marinas are nearly full to capacity.

The length of the season does not determine the fee, it's more about property value and income level that sets the price of what the market will bear. Boating in the Carolinas might have twice the boating season but half the cost for a slip.

Again I have to point out the Steele Pointe marina that was just completed a couple years ago in Bridgeport, CT. Certainly looks like they spared no expense and it is marketed as a luxury destination. I can't say it's a success yet, but someone has a vision that they are willing to spend on.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson
backinblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 11:37 AM   #30
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by backinblue View Post
B, I don't understand your point here. Yes boating in New England is seasonal and so are the marina fees. Most commonly, you pay a summer slip fee and a winter land storage fee. Combine those together and you have your annual fee that most boaters are willing to pay judging by the fact that most marinas are nearly full to capacity.

The length of the season does not determine the fee, it's more about property value and income level that sets the price of what the market will bear. Boating in the Carolinas might have twice the boating season but half the cost for a slip.

.
There is not just the reduced slip rental due to the short season as winter land storage doesn't pay what slips do. There is reduced work for the yard and reduced sales in other ways such as no fuel sales during half the year. Staffing is a huge challenge when you have no work for a large part of your staff for half the year. It's a lot easier to run a profitable marina in a warm climate just like it's much easier to run ice cream and yogurt stores. Doesn't mean it's not possible in colder climates, just means fewer total sources of revenue for much of the year.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 11:57 AM   #31
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 5,367
Things like restaurants aren't always a bad thing. The marina we're in is a working yard. They've been working to make their docks nicer, etc. over the last few years and have put in a few more amenities, but nothing that takes away from the basics or adds much cost (no pools or anything).

They also have a bar / restaurant right on the river next to the gas dock. The restaurant is all of 500 feet from the lift pit, yet the people sitting at the bar during the day don't seem to mind the noise of travelifts and other equipment running around the yard nearby. There are only a handful of other waterfront bars in the area, so the restaurant pulls in a whole lot of extra money beyond what the marina and yard makes otherwise.
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 02:34 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
LN-RTP's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Name: Odin
Vessel Model: Albin 28TE
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 246
A new "Marina" is being built in Palm Coast, Flagler County:
Marina del Palma is a residential marina, you buy a lot, then build a house.
The Marina will dry stack
your boat, up to 30' in a boat house.
Larger boats can buy a slip.
We bought a lot there last year and are planning to build.
https://www.marinadelpalma.com/
__________________
www.odincharters.com
LN-RTP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 05:14 PM   #33
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2,203
There’s rack storage at SH in Plymouth. Filled with small boats. If it wasn’t there they be trailered. At least in that town trivial impact on slip availability.
It says “America’s Home Town” on all the traffic signs here. Admittedly I’m confused. Even after living here for decades when someone says I’m going to the city I think they mean Manhattan.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 06:43 PM   #34
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
There’s rack storage at SH in Plymouth. Filled with small boats. If it wasn’t there they be trailered. At least in that town trivial impact on slip availability.
It says “America’s Home Town” on all the traffic signs here. Admittedly I’m confused. Even after living here for decades when someone says I’m going to the city I think they mean Manhattan.
Wifey B: Saw the signs when we were there. Wanted to take a marker and correct them, but didn't do so. Sort of like all the places declare themselves best or All American city based on one year long ago. We saw the rock and then moved on. Jamestown, of course we saw their claims and St. Augustine, then the Lost Colony in Manteo.

Since I'm posting already, I'll jump in for hubby and say the early rack storage was small boats but nothing today preventing much larger boats on racks other than the cost. I'd sure rather have the boat carried on a cradle than fork lift. I use to get worried every time ours was brought out or taken in on fork lift. Fortunately it was done most times before we arrived or after we left.

Manhattan? As in Kansas?

And to those in the other boroughs, all the city is the NY, but to those in Manhattan, only Manhattan counts as NYC.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 08:42 PM   #35
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2,203
Wow please don’t catch an attitude. Just pulling your chain for a attempt for a smile.


BTW grew up on the lower east side. Worked at downstate kings county and lived in Brooklyn heights then. The locals also “went to the city. No they weren’t talking about the financial sector of London :-).
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2022, 08:54 PM   #36
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Wow please don’t catch an attitude. Just pulling your chain for a attempt for a smile.


BTW grew up on the lower east side. Worked at downstate kings county and lived in Brooklyn heights then. The locals also “went to the city. No they weren’t talking about the financial sector of London :-).
Wifey B: Didn't you see all my smiles?
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2022, 08:21 AM   #37
Guru
 
backinblue's Avatar
 
City: Stratford, CT
Vessel Name: Blue Moon
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 355
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
There is not just the reduced slip rental due to the short season as winter land storage doesn't pay what slips do. There is reduced work for the yard and reduced sales in other ways such as no fuel sales during half the year. Staffing is a huge challenge when you have no work for a large part of your staff for half the year. It's a lot easier to run a profitable marina in a warm climate just like it's much easier to run ice cream and yogurt stores. Doesn't mean it's not possible in colder climates, just means fewer total sources of revenue for much of the year.
Sorry B, still not buying that argument. Length of season does not determine the price. For example, someone in CT may pay $6000 for a 6 month slip + $3000 for winter storage. Someone in North Carolina, might pay $3000 for a 12 month slip. Also the hauling/storing/launching creates lots of work opportunities for the marina crew including regular maintenance, winterizing, painting, zincs, upgrades, spring commisioning, etc., that happens in the off-season with more regularity than those who boat year-round. The shorter season helps the staffing issue as you can hire seasonal help like dock hands and gas attendants but not have to pay them in the winter. Often they are high school and college students. The higher skilled mechanics are rarely with nothing to do.

So I agree that there may be less sources of income in the winter, but why does that matter if they make up for it in the summer?
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson
backinblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2022, 08:34 AM   #38
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 9,638
IMO, if you can afford it, and you want a ‘home base’, buy the slip. Over time and when you are ready to sell your boat, sell the slip separately. The boat is an asset and the slip is a different asset. It is. So. Very easy to raise the rental fee.
__________________
The meek will inherit the earth but, the brave will inherit the seas.
OldDan1943 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2022, 08:51 AM   #39
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 5,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDan1943 View Post
IMO, if you can afford it, and you want a ‘home base’, buy the slip. Over time and when you are ready to sell your boat, sell the slip separately. The boat is an asset and the slip is a different asset. It is. So. Very easy to raise the rental fee.

In many areas, that's unfortunately not an option. There are some places where you can buy a slip, but others where unless you buy waterfront property and install your own slip, there aren't any you can buy (they're all in marinas that rent them).
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2022, 09:25 AM   #40
Guru
 
fstbttms's Avatar
 
City: Under a boat, in a marina in the San Francisco Bay
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 574
https://brooklynbasin.com/
Attached Thumbnails
brooklyn basin rendering 4.jpg  
__________________
Clean bottoms are FastBottoms!
fstbttms is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012