Snubbing with a splice

[O C Diver]

So after last weekend's Southeast coast storm, I need to make a new snubber or 2. Lots of time to think when you're hunkered down on the hook and your single 3/4" rope snubber looks to be less than 1/2" wide. Switched out to the double during a lull in the wind. So I pretty much know what I'm going to make, until I saw this.


Crap! Picture is 90 off and they just lengthened the lines so that the splice is now underwater.

My double line that goes through the hawse pipes to the cleats, is two lines to the hook / plate. The one in the picture is braided forward of the bow with one line going to the chain.

Anyone used one like this or care to offer opinions?

Ted

 

[Comodave]

Not exactly like that but I do something like that at our home dock. We have mooring whips to hold the boat off the dock so I have longer lines to allow the boat to drift away from the dock. I spliced in a second line to the first line to pull the boat close to the dock for boarding without having to release the longer first line. I just pull the boat in and lay the second line over the first line on the cleat and cleat it off. When we are done going on or off the boat I just uncleat the second line and the boat drifts back out on the mooring whips and I don’t have to adjust the first longer dock line.

 

[O C Diver]

I'm looking more for performance, strength, and benefit information. Obviously it can be done. Advantages and disadvantages?

Ted

 

[FWT]

I too did a quick search on that technique and splice and came up dry.

So this is just instinct.

First, I don't like the idea of that splice. Seems to me it would be weakened by the angle, pulling apart the strands. Under load. Bobbing.

Second, seems like there would be SOME loss of strength introducing a splice between the cleat and chain, even if I am wrong about #1

Third, with two singles you have some redundancy if one gives way for some reason. With this set up you have redundancy above the splice but not below.

Just seems like a fancy way to do the job less securely.

My two cents, and the opinion isn't worth more than those pennies.

 

[O C Diver]

I too did a quick search on that technique and splice and came up dry.

So this is just instinct.

First, I don't like the idea of that splice. Seems to me it would be weakened by the angle, pulling apart the strands. Under load. Bobbing.

Second, seems like there would be SOME loss of strength introducing a splice between the cleat and chain, even if I am wrong about #1

Third, with two singles you have some redundancy if one gives way for some reason. With this set up you have redundancy above the splice but not below.

Just seems like a fancy way to do the job less securely.

My two cents, and the opinion isn't worth more than those pennies.

Ok, to address your points:

I have a thimble spliced into the end of my snubber. A shackle attaches it to the hook. Regarding your 1st and 2nd point, how would the splice above the water be different from a strength and pulling standpoint than the splice holding in the thimble? I see plenty of spliced loops throw over bollards that don't suffer from strength or odd pulling angles.

I agree with your 3rd point about redundancy. Hooking the chain before the windlass and cleating it off is my backup. When dealing with storms, I plan to keep my other snubber with the dual lines to the hook / plate. This would be my fair weather (under 25 knots) snubber.

Ted

 

[DDW]

I've kinda got one like that, just took twice the length of snubber line and cow hitched it through the eye of the chain hook. I wouldn't worry that much about a reduction of strength, since the snubber should be running at no more than about 25% of breaking strength anyway.

 

[FWT]

Ok, to address your points:

I have a thimble spliced into the end of my snubber. A shackle attaches it to the hook. Regarding your 1st and 2nd point, how would the splice above the water be different from a strength and pulling standpoint than the splice holding in the thimble? I see plenty of spliced loops throw over bollards that don't suffer from strength or odd pulling angles.


Ted

It is very well documented that an eye splice around a properly sized thimble is either the single strongest knot or splice there is, or darned close to best. That isn't in question. I just re-looked it up to confirm, and I see numbers like 90-95% of the strength of the line itself. A bowline knot is 60% by comparison. No knot comes close to an eye splce.

And an eye splice into a large loop has that same high strength.

The only time strength suffers is when the thimble is too small relative to the size of the line, and thus the turn is too cramped / sharp, weakening the line. The weakness becomes in the line, not the splice itself.

What I was questioning was the splice of two lines forming a "Y", of three points: one to a chain hook or lashed, and the other two to either side of the bow. THAT splice just seems weak to me, but I can't find any examples or discussion of that splice. So not finding anything on that unfamiliar splice, that where I said it was just instinct, and why.

 

[psneeld]

Why would a splice joining 2 lines be weaker than a splice forming a loop that is around a piling?

Picture splicing a big loop, cut the loop at the opposite point as the splice and tie those to cleats.

Seems the same to me.

 

[O C Diver]

What I was questioning was the splice of two lines forming a "Y", of three points: one to a chain hook or lashed, and the other two to either side of the bow. THAT splice just seems weak to me, but I can't find any examples or discussion of that splice. So not finding anything on that unfamiliar splice, that where I said it was just instinct, and why.

I agree with you but, anytime you make a loop with a splice, you're joining the end of a line to a continuous line. Aren't the same forces being exerted under tension?

Ted

 

[FWT]

I agree with you but, anytime you make a loop with a splice, you're joining the end of a line to a continuous line. Aren't the same forces being exerted under tension?

Ted

Good point. You might be right. And psneld above. As I said, nothing but gut feel.

 

[FWT]

For what its worth, the approach that most appealed to me from a prior discussion here was to use two singles, with two chain hooks, attached to the chain a few links apart. Total redundancy including from the event of a hook becoming detached. The only two downsides being the horror of having to bend over twice to attach two hooks, and the cost of two hooks instead of one. Otherwise, you have two singles to choose from when a single is all you need or want for the evening, instead of choosing between a bridle rig or single (in which case you will also have invested in two hooks). And if you want backup in case of chaffing add another single into the kit. Replacement from wear can be done replacing a single instead of a whole bridle. Simple and redundant.

 

[psneeld]

Ted did say fair weather snubber.

Methinks many on TF worry way too much most of the time and too little the times it probably is most needed.

But that's only after 2 careers of seeing the entire spectrum of boating get in and out of trouble...often amazed at how few don't considering their experience levels. Many reports right here on TF of sheer novices making a success on You Tube taking off on the grand adventure.

 

[FWT]

What, we over-think things here on TF? Shocked to hear that.

 

[Datenight]

Ted,

I had the "Y" set up on our previous boat a North Pacific 39. The line was 1/2". Never a worry in six years of anchoring.

For our present boat, a NP45, I did two single 1/2" lines to a shackle which attaches to the chain hook. The attached photo shows the snubber attached to the shackle with a bowline. That was for the delivery from Philadelphia, PA to Groton, CT. I have since spliced in thimbles in place of bowlines. Two seasons and working well.

I thought about going with heavier line but wanted the elasticity of the smaller diameter.

Rob

 

[Datenight]

The photo rotated 90*. The one shot where it does not matter!

Rob

 

[DDW]

For what its worth, the approach that most appealed to me from a prior discussion here was to use two singles, with two chain hooks, attached to the chain a few links apart. Total redundancy including from the event of a hook becoming detached.

The problem I have with this is that with a little yawing, one or the other line is very likely to go slack, and when it does the chain hook will fall off (unless it is secured somehow). With both lines going to a single hook, there will always be tension on it.

 

[FWT]

The problem I have with this is that with a little yawing, one or the other line is very likely to go slack, and when it does the chain hook will fall off (unless it is secured somehow). With both lines going to a single hook, there will always be tension on it.

Point taken. But seems to me in the last discussion on this folks reported that not happening. The same risk exists with one hook on a quiet night in a cove with no material current and you just drift in lazy fashion with no tension. How often does this happen to you? And if so, the redundancy fact leaves you with one attached, with the tension you say will be there.

 

[psneeld]

Point taken. But seems to me in the last discussion on this folks reported that not happening. The same risk exists with one hook on a quiet night in a cove with no material current and you just drift in lazy fashion with no tension. How often does this happen to you? And if so, the redundancy fact leaves you with one attached, with the tension you say will be there.

My chain hook feel off in almost every tidal creek I anchored in.

If you anchor in shallow water (or low tide areas with extreme tides) the snubber has to be so short so the hook doesn't touch bottom and then the snubber doesn't have much give.

So I gave up and just use a hitch and never an issue since....

 

[rgano]

Why would a splice joining 2 lines be weaker than a splice forming a loop that is around a piling?

Picture splicing a big loop, cut the loop at the opposite point as the splice and tie those to cleats.

Seems the same to me.

r

That is exactly how I was thinking I would make such a bridle if I wanted one. And then I'd braid the far end of the wye for attachment to the rode with a hitch. I prefer two braided snubbers made up to the chain/nylon rode with icicle hitches. Been through the hook plate, single chain hooks, etc,etc, What snaps back at you when that hook or shackle breaks? It's a pound or two of hook part, shackle, and thimble. It will hurt.

 

[O C Diver]

Ted,

I had the "Y" set up on our previous boat a North Pacific 39. The line was 1/2". Never a worry in six years of anchoring.

For our present boat, a NP45, I did two single 1/2" lines to a shackle which attaches to the chain hook. The attached photo shows the snubber attached to the shackle with a bowline. That was for the delivery from Philadelphia, PA to Groton, CT. I have since spliced in thimbles in place of bowlines. Two seasons and working well.

I thought about going with heavier line but wanted the elasticity of the smaller diameter.

Rob

Rob, I appreciate the information.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

My chain hook feel off in almost every tidal creek I anchored in.

If you anchor in shallow water (or low tide areas with extreme tides) the snubber has to be so short so the hook doesn't touch bottom and then the snubber doesn't have much give.

So I gave up and just use a hitch and never an issue since....

That is amazing!

I use a stainless steel Suncor chain hook. With a couple hundred deployments, I have yet to have it come off when anchored. Now I don't think the hook has ever been within 3' of the bottom. The other thing I do is make sure there's a large Loop from the bow roller to the chain hook. In essence, there is always 3' of chain hanging down from both sides of the hook.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

I know..... I have read the many views that work for a lot of people I trust.

But after 8 round trips of NJ to Brunswick, Ga and south ....and after the hook failures I had.....I mostly just used a 20 foot or so 1/2 inch single snubber hitched to the chain.

Just cleat it off, hitch it to the chain headed for the roller and power down the anchor till tight, then about 8 more feet of chain.....done.

 

[dhays]

I too would be concerned about the Y splice in this application. A spliced loop, as was mentioned before, is extremely strong when done well with a properly sized thimble. However, this isn't the same. A bridle can, and will, provide asymmetric loading on the two different legs of the bridle. A typical spliced loop doesn't have that asymmetric loading. For this reason I don't think the spliced Y would have the same strength as an equivalent spliced loop. I could be wrong however. It would be nice to get an expert opinion by some such as Brian Toss.


I don't use chain hooks for a bridle. I will either use a hitch around the chain or, more commonly now, soft shackle kluge of my own design that I like a lot. In either case, I prefer two legs of the bridle that come together and then are attached to the chain by a single point of attachment.


Of course, just because that Y splice in the picture may be not a strong as other systems, it could easily be "strong enough" for that application. I use 1/2" 3 strand nylon for my bridle legs. If I used 5/8" I could accept more weakpoints in the system.

 

[koliver]

Mine has performed well for 20 + years.
1/2" 3 strand line, twice the necessary length, pushed the middle through the stainless loop on the chain hook, pulled both ends back through the rope loop and back, one end to either hawse hole. Never had slippage, no chafe, never a concern that the 1/2" rope wasn't strong enough.

 

[Sofa King Fishy]

No reason to overthink it…use two separate 3 strand nylon lines, eye splice to wrap around bow cleats, and another eye splice with thimble at each end. Attach both to a shackle, then chain hook. Strength, Simplicity & redundancy.

 

[Hippocampus]

We used the old style mantus chain hook. With it it was simple to always have two totally independent snubbers.
Have seen people attach their chain hook to a short piece of chain. Then a shackle with a thimbled snubber. Between the weight of the short segment of chain and ability to twist around the anchor chain if necessary the chain hook doesn’t fall off.
Have never done that having only used self retaining hooks or just knots.

Going to give TTs suggestion of using dyneema loops a shotLooks like his technique makes this conversation moot.

 

[rgano]

No reason to overthink it…use two separate 3 strand nylon lines, eye splice to wrap around bow cleats, and another eye splice with thimble at each end. Attach both to a shackle, then chain hook. Strength, Simplicity & redundancy.

True, but the eye splices to drop over bow cleats and not necessary if you want to make the legs long enough to be adjustable using cleat hitches. Eye splices are redundant.

 

[FWT]

Reviving this, I came across another option.

Use an Alpine Butterfly knot in the center of a longer line with the two sides forming the bridle. Tighten it onto a thimble for chafe. Shackle it to a hook.

The rated strength is 67%. A bowline is 60%. Not as strong as a splice, which in 3 strand rates at 90-95%. But uncomplicated to do. One might compensate by going up in line diameter, or going to stronger double braid.

Without doing the math, this knot in double braid may equal spliced 3 strand of the same diameter.

Just another option.

https://www.animatedknots.com/alpine-butterfly-loop-knot

 

[O C Diver]

Reviving this, I came across another option.

Use an Alpine Butterfly knot in the center of a longer line with the two sides forming the bridle. Tighten it onto a thimble for chaff. Shackle it to a hook.

The rated strength is 67%. A bowline is 60%. Not as strong as a splice, which in 3 strand rates at 90-95%. But uncomplicated to do. One might compensate by going up in line diameter, or going to stronger double braid.

Without doing the math, this knot in double braid may equal spliced 3 strand of the same diameter.

Just another option.

https://www.animatedknots.com/alpine-butterfly-loop-knot

It's funny you revive this thread. I'm just finishing up my version 1.0 Snubber with a splice. Will be testing it in a week or so.

Ted

 

[FWT]

That's great. I'll be interested to hear the report on that.