Snubbing with a splice

[FWT]

While I was fooling around looking for the strength rating of the Alpine Butterfly hitch I stumbled up this discussion about options to tie a snubber to a chain or rope rode.

Lots of folks here report success in using a rolling hitch, but this suggests there are simple ways to improve upon that. The simple solution being a second rolling hitch.

For what its worth.

http://https://www.practical-sailor.com/safety-seamanship/hitches-to-grip-anchor-chain

 

[Hippocampus]

+1 on the PS article. Lived on the hook for 8 years. Always used 2 independent snubbers. Wanted them to go independently to the chain. For reasons I don’t fully understand found it resulted in less sailing/hunting of the boat.
Think 3 strain works better as snubber line and is easier to splice. Do measure the snubbers time to time. If they’ve stretched a lot then get replaced.
Really liked the old style mantus chain hook with the flexible plastic piece to hold it on the chain. Unfortunately they stopped making that design. Find a hitch is foolproof but sometimes a pia to untie. Going to try out a dyneema loop. Any body here have much experience with that and the details involved?

 

[FWT]

+1 on the PS article. Lived on the hook for 8 years. Always used 2 independent snubbers. Wanted them to go independently to the chain. For reasons I don’t fully understand found it resulted in less sailing/hunting of the boat.
Think 3 strain works better as snubber line and is easier to splice. Do measure the snubbers time to time. If they’ve stretched a lot then get replaced.
Really liked the old style mantus chain hook with the flexible plastic piece to hold it on the chain. Unfortunately they stopped making that design. Find a hitch is foolproof but sometimes a pia to untie. Going to try out a dyneema loop. Any body here have much experience with that and the details involved?

The beauty of this topic is there seems to be no one right way. There are lots of valid approaches. I think I'm going to start with my new build with a single hook and snubber, and if the construction seems to work then make a second. Splicing 3 strand isn't that hard.

My logic has everything to do with my circumstances. Though I expect to have foredeck duty with this, my wife isn't going to be lashing any new (to her) hitches with confidence whenever she has that duty, nor enjoy the untie in the morning. And just an old fashioned hook. If any issues arise, then it will be on to the next best idea.

 

[Shrew]

I don't understand the objective here. Ideally you'd make a bridle with two independent legs.

1) A Bridle helps with yawing

2) The total strength of the bridle is the combination of the two independent lines.

3) A bridle with two independent lines provides redundancy.

Having a bridle with two attachments points going down to a single hawser line makes no sense. You maintain the reduction in yawing, however you cut the strength and redundancy in half.

If the portion of the single lines parts, you have ZERO redundancy.

So, can someone explain what benefit you're gaining by trying to build a 2-leg to 1-hawser bridle?

 

[FWT]

I don't understand the objective here. Ideally you'd make a bridle with two independent legs.

1) A Bridle helps with yawing

2) The total strength of the bridle is the combination of the two independent lines.

3) A bridle with two independent lines provides redundancy.

Having a bridle with two attachments points going down to a single hawser line makes no sense. You maintain the reduction in yawing, however you cut the strength and redundancy in half.

If the portion of the single lines parts, you have ZERO redundancy.

So, can someone explain what benefit you're gaining by trying to build a 2-leg to 1-hawser bridle?

Who, me? I'm headed to two lines, two hooks, cleated port and starboard.

 

[Shrew]

Who, me? I'm headed to two lines, two hooks, cleated port and starboard.

It was the scope of the original thread. Are you just hijacking any snubber thread to discuss your idea? If so, then you should consider starting a new thread.

 

[FWT]

It was the scope of the original thread. Are you just hijacking any snubber thread to discuss your idea? If so, then you should consider starting a new thread.

Jeez.

No hijack. The idea is discussion on a discussion forum. Since I was the last to post you had me confused.

Carry on.

 

[O C Diver]

I don't understand the objective here. Ideally you'd make a bridle with two independent legs.

1) A Bridle helps with yawing

2) The total strength of the bridle is the combination of the two independent lines.

3) A bridle with two independent lines provides redundancy.

Having a bridle with two attachments points going down to a single hawser line makes no sense. You maintain the reduction in yawing, however you cut the strength and redundancy in half.

If the portion of the single lines parts, you have ZERO redundancy.

So, can someone explain what benefit you're gaining by trying to build a 2-leg to 1-hawser bridle?

Shrew, with all do respect, you're mistaken, unless your boat never sails at anchor.

1. A bridle makes no to little difference at yawing. Sailing at anchor is a function of hull design and or forward windage. Switching from single snubber to bridle has no effect on windage and hull design.

2. Wrong, unless your boat never sails at anchor. When a boat sails off to one side, one line (furthest cleat from your chain hook) takes the tension and the other (closest to the chain hook) slacks. Depending on the length of the snubber, one could part before the other comes under tension.

3. Yes providing it's the line that fails. Redundancy is better accomplished by 2 completely separate snubbers.

I have been using a single line over the bow roller for the last 5 years, without issue. The idea behind the bridle spliced to a single line was to move the attachment to the hawse pipe and cleats. When anchored in modest to strong winds, the single line over the bow roller snaps between port and starboard, requiring me to tie it in place. Frankly not worried about breaking the new 3/4" line I'm making the snubber out of. The theoretical weak points are the splices, and mine always have an eye splice around the thimble where the chain hook is shackled on. Whatever the percentage of strength that is lost from a splice, it's certainly not cumulative.

Less you think I'm at risk in heavy weather, my third snubber has 1" lines with independent shackles on the chain hook.

Ted

 

[angus99]

Ted, are there any wind/surge conditions at which you’d become concerned about over-stressing the bow roller/pulpit? I seem to recall your Cherubini is built like a tank but your avatar appears to show a bridle or snubber coming out of a hawse hole. Do you take stress off the pulpit/roller in heavy weather? (And I know you studiously avoid heavy weather.)

 

[O C Diver]

Ted, are there any wind/surge conditions at which you’d become concerned about over-stressing the bow roller/pulpit? I seem to recall your Cherubini is built like a tank but your avatar appears to show a bridle or snubber coming out of a hawse hole. Do you take stress off the pulpit/roller in heavy weather? (And I know you studiously avoid heavy weather.)

Sean reinforced the pulpit during the refit. From memory, he added 3/4" from the hull to the sides and at least that much from the hull to the bottom of the pulpit of biaxial cloth and fiberglass. It's rock solid.

That said, I would rather avoid excessive stress on the pulpit. I avoid waves when anchoring. My idea of short scope is 7:1. 10:1 above 30 knots. So the angle of the snubber off the bow roller is pretty shallow. I've seen 40 knots with the snubber over the bow roller. My storm snubber is a plate with a slot and 2 lines (1" double braid) coming back to the hawse pipes. They could extend the chain plate out to 30' if needed.

It was time to replace the snubber. So I made a new snubber that goes over the bow roller. I made a bridal with a splice that's almost done. The bridal wth a splice may be too short as there are loops on the ends to go through the hawse pipes and over the cleats. Each splice eats a foot of 3/4" rope. Hamilton Marine sells short pieces of 3/4" hard lay premium New England brand rope for a very good price. Worse case, I'll need another $50 worth of rope.

Ted

 

[Shrew]

Shrew, with all do respect, you're mistaken, unless your boat never sails at anchor.

Fair enough. Excluding the list of reasons a bridle is better or not, let's go back to the original scope of your post.......

You've proposed a bridle spliced to a single line. What benefits does that afford you. If you're confident with a single line what does the "Y" bridle do better than a single line??

 

[Shrew]

As for the butterfly knot discussion. You could make a bridle using a butterfly knot. It is commonly accepted that in most cases a splice is significantly stronger than a knot. However, in this case the alpine butterfly is on a bight.

In a snubber, the snubber legs are not usually tied and untied. The only benefit to any knot on a bite is it is temporary and can be placed anywhere in the rope. I don't see much need to turn my anchor snubber back into a length of line to be re-purposed.

My snubbers are 25 feet long each, have thimbles and a shackle and a chain hook. Even if I tied a knot on a bite, I would never remove it. Therefore, I'm not sure what the knot would be buying me.

 

[O C Diver]

You've proposed a bridle spliced to a single line. What benefits does that afford you. If you're confident with a single line what does the "Y" bridle do better than a single line??

The bridle spliced to a single puts the load back through the hawse pipe onto the cleats. As the boat swings with a traditional double line, one line draws tight rubbing up the drooping chain to the bow roller, tick tick tick tick. After an irregular time period, the other line starts to slack, tick tick tick. I'm hoping for the junction splice to be behind the drooping chain, and the single line forward staying taunt to avoid the, tick tick tick tick. My pillow is resting against the chain locker bulkhead. Regular noise is fine. Tick tick tick tick, followed by 30 seconds or more of silence before the repetition, isn't acceptable. That's why I switched to the snubber over the bow roller, no tick.

Ted

 

[Hippocampus]

Had a kellet we never used. Use two independent snubbers. Downside of of one very strong snubber is less stretch and elasticity so less absorption of shock loads from gusts. Found dragging the kellet on its own light line run through the roller (snubbers go directly to their respective cleats) gave the least motion and quietest ride. Trick is to match length of line attached to the kellet to depth. Not an issue near the equator but up north you need to adjust periodically.
With the new boat need experience to decide what to use and how to rig it. Have chafe free runs for the snubbers but also a Sampson post. Be nice to use it.

 

[O C Diver]

So an update on my snubber with a splice. I'm anchored off the St Johns river in Jacksonville, FL. It's blowing 25 with sustained gusts 30 to 40 knots.

Picture 1 shows the two lines coming forward from the hawse pipes to a splice, then going forward to an eye splice around a thimble, shackle, and chain hook.



Pictures 2 & 3 show a large eye splice with chaffing sleeve, around the cleat and through the hawse pipe. I did this to eliminate any stretching of the line through the hawse pipe (stretching and the resulting squeaking is annoying when you're trying to fall asleep).





Picture 4 shows a 3/8" line tied to the looping chain to keep it from rubbing on the snubber.



Picture 5, I probably need to increase the distance between the two splices by 3'.



Picture 6, the business end. Got to like that massive Suncor 316 SS thimble, $22 from Defender.com.



While putting this post together, there have been a few gusts to 40 knots. Blount Island is .2 miles up wind of me, so waves are less than 2'. Break strength on the rope is 17,150 pounds. Supposedly, a splice reduces the break strength to 60% or 10,290 pounds. No noticeable stretching so far. Rocna is buried with 10:1 scope. Version 1.0 looking good so far.

Ted

 

[FWT]

Ted, that looks good to me.

Glad to hear you like that chain hook. I had one in cart folder to buy once I fill the cart with more stuff.

I don't know how much length you figure you have to work with, from cleat to hook. But it seems to me if you lengthen the two legs, the chain section from roller to hook could just droop between the legs without rubbing the snubber? Saving the step of that extra line.

And, its nothing but guess and instinct, but I would guess that the tighter the angle between the two legs (by making the legs as long as practical) the stronger that splice would be. Taken to an extreme of a wide right angle I'd think there would be loading on a single strand of the 3 strand, but taken to the extreme of no angle and that loading would go away. Might well be wrong about this entirely.

Bottom line: looks good, as-is. Version 2.0 would only fine tune what is already good.

How large a line are you using? Hard to tell from the pics, but looks like half inch?

 

[O C Diver]

Ted, that looks good to me.

Glad to hear you like that chain hook. I had one in cart folder to buy once I fill the cart with more stuff.

I don't know how much length you figure you have to work with, from cleat to hook. But it seems to me if you lengthen the two legs, the chain section from roller to hook could just droop between the legs without rubbing the snubber? Saving the step of that extra line.

And, its nothing but guess and instinct, but I would guess that the tighter the angle between the two legs (by making the legs as long as practical) the stronger that splice would be. Taken to an extreme of a wide right angle I'd think there would be loading on a single strand of the 3 strand, but taken to the extreme of no angle and that loading would go away. Might well be wrong about this entirely.

Bottom line: looks good, as-is. Version 2.0 would only fine tune what is already good.

How large a line are you using? Hard to tell from the pics, but looks like half inch?

Not going to lengthen the legs, the section between the hook and the splice of the two legs joining.

The chain loop from the bow roller to the hawse pipe and down, works well just as it is.

Not really worried about the angle of the splice as far as load strength. My boat sails at anchor, so the angles and which leg is under tension changes constantly

The line is 3/4" nylon.

Ted

 

[Simi 60]

I have been using a single line over the bow roller for the last 5 years, without issue.

We are the same, near 6 years of daily anchoring and we sail around all over the place.

Tried twin snubbers,waste of time and chafed the hull

Now we just use a single over the bow roller.
A 5 metre with victory hook for everyday - this just touches the water
A 10 metre with soft shackle if we are getting more than 40 knots.

Bought a full drum of 20mm 3 strand nylon and replace the 5m every couple of years even though there is negligible sign of any wear.

 

[rgano]

So an update on my snubber with a splice. I'm anchored off the St Johns river in Jacksonville, FL. It's blowing 25 with sustained gusts 30 to 40 knots.

Picture 1 shows the two lines coming forward from the hawse pipes to a splice, then going forward to an eye splice around a thimble, shackle, and chain hook.

View attachment 127557

Pictures 2 & 3 show a large eye splice with chaffing sleeve, around the cleat and through the hawse pipe. I did this to eliminate any stretching of the line through the hawse pipe (stretching and the resulting squeaking is annoying when you're trying to fall asleep).

View attachment 127558

View attachment 127559

Picture 4 shows a 3/8" line tied to the looping chain to keep it from rubbing on the snubber.

View attachment 127560

Picture 5, I probably need to increase the distance between the two splices by 3'.

View attachment 127561

Picture 6, the business end. Got to like that massive Suncor 316 SS thimble, $22 from Defender.com.

View attachment 127562

While putting this post together, there have been a few gusts to 40 knots. Blount Island is .2 miles up wind of me, so waves are less than 2'. Break strength on the rope is 17,150 pounds. Supposedly, a splice reduces the break strength to 60% or 10,290 pounds. No noticeable stretching so far. Rocna is buried with 10:1 scope. Version 1.0 looking good so far.

Ted

What is the WLL of the hook? Is it carbon steel?

 

[O C Diver]

What is the WLL of the hook? Is it carbon steel?

Thimble, shackle and hook are all Suncor 316 stainless steel. WLL of shackle and hook is 2,500 pounds. My Acco G4 chain has a WLL of 5,400 pounds.

Ted

 

[rgano]

I am sure the Suncor SS is good. I had a no-name SS anchor shackle of almost 1/2-inch size in which I found a crack in the bow above the spin hole. Have stuck with CMA and the sort steel since.

 

[O C Diver]

I am sure the Suncor SS is good. I had a no-name SS anchor shackle of almost 1/2-inch size in which I found a crack in the bow above the spin hole. Have stuck with CMA and the sort steel since.

I use Crosby rated galvanized steel shackles on the chain to anchor connection. End for end my chain each year and inspect the shackle. They’re inexpensive enough that they get changed out every 4 or 5 years. The snubber gets checked each time it's deployed, so I worry about that shackle less.

Ted

 

[rgano]

I think I meant CMS above.

If everybody out there cruing and anchoring did as you do, we would hear of FAR fewer ground tckle system failures, but I fear you are an exception.

 

[FWT]

Ted:

You have likely given the new bridle a workout this summer. The new spliced version working well?

 

[O C Diver]

Ted:

You have likely given the new bridle a workout this summer. The new spliced version working well?

Love it!

Have anchored out with it 41 times since April. Boat seems to sail less at anchor. I'm attributing that to the hook being much closer to the bow. The loops over the cleats have eliminated any stretching through the hawse pipes (which was very annoying in the forward berth. Can't find anything wrong with it.

All that said, I'm probably going to make another one. I'd like the junction of the legs from the hawse pipes one foot lower and the junction to the hook one foot longer. I'm so happy with this one, that I never used the new one I made to go over the bow roller. So I'm probably going to take that one, scavenge the hardware and chaffing sleeves, and buy some more rope.

This is what CDO (OCD in alphabetical order) will do to you.

Ted

 

[FWT]

Terrific. Thanks for the report.

 

[boomerang]

Ted, I've been following your spliced bridle/snubber thread and would appreciate your input regarding your latest bridle. We bought PSN's Albin 40 last winter and it appears that he used a snubber, securing it to the sampson post ,either through a single hawse hole or over the anchor roller, I'm not sure which because I've never remembered ask him. Anyway, when we brought the boat home from Florida to the Chesapeake Bay, I rigged up a single line snubber with a galvanized chain hook to get us started (I think he simply used a rolling hitch or similar to secure the snubber line to the chain). Having never used a snubber on any of our previous boats ,since they were all a nylon rode & chain combination without hawse holes, I wasn't sure what we wanted or needed. By the time we got to Myrtle beach, I was sure I didn't want a farm implement-style grab hook for a snubber hook , mainly because the thing does come off of the chain too easily. I ordered a chain hook with an eye big enough to accommodate 2 thimbles for a bridle system. It worked well for the rest of the trip north and throughout the summer season here at home and I've decided I like the bridle style rig, using the hawse holes. My issue is the cup-style hook is a real pita to get on & off of the chain. It's impossible to do with the chain taught, which makes anchoring a little more complicated with a strong wind or current. We're going to keep it as a backup (after I replace the china manufactured tractor supply "galvanized" thimbles that rusted the very first day they got wet...they were all I could find locally at the time) but I bought a Suncor anchor chain hook, which is definitely easier to hang on the chain. My issue is that the eye on the suncore is too small to handle any more than a single line (I thought about using a shackle to join 2 lines to the hook but I prefer the minimum amount of hardware wherever possible).
Which brings me to the point of my post. I'm going to try a bridal system with a single tag line below the splice going to the chain hook like the tackle you've fabricated and are happy with. I've added a 12" cleat below each hawsepipe (on the horizontal deck since there wasn't room for a vertical cleat like you have pictured, but still close to the pipe) so I most likely won't be using the sampson post.
My question to you, since you were working on the 2nd version, is what would you consider a good length to start with ,concerning the bridal to hook measurement? I'm not worried about the boat side, since I'm planning on securing the bridal using the cleats with enough line to fine tune and adjust and not a loop hung on the cleats like you have pictured. I'm using 1/2" nylon and want to keep enough stretch in the line to absorb the shock but keep everything as compact as possible. I recall you mentioning your new iteration using a longer tag line to the hook.
I'm sitting here with several piles of 3-strand line, new thimbles and 2 chain hooks at my feet so I'm ready to stink up the house with melted nylon & start splicing! We still have a few more local anchoring nights planned before we head South for the winter and I'm looking forward to not fighting with the clumsy chain hook we've been using.
The first hook is the original one we purchased. It has a large eye with room for 2 thimbles & stays on the chain securely when anchored but a real booger to get on & off of the chain. Plus the quality seems a little light but I doubt that we'll ever come close to testing it's breaking strength.
The second pic is what we just bought and plan on using as our main hook. It's heavier-duty and hooks on the chain easily but has an eye only big enough or a single thimble.

 

[mvweebles]

For those with smaller boats, or simply avoid single-purpose gear aboard, a longish dockline with a Camel Hitch (similar to rolling hitch but more secure attachment to chain) is all you need.

Peter

 

[boomerang]

I learned how to tie an icicle hitch for using a single-line snubber but really prefer just hanging a hook on the chain, mainly because it's so much quicker for on/off. This boat doesn't seem to sail at anchor as others I've seen but I like using the hawse holes and a bridle because I can tweak the line and having 2 of them going through the pipes splits the load between the cleats and the pipes, to a degree. Not that we're planning on anchoring in heavy weather for long...we anchor out to relax!

 

[mvweebles]

I learned how to tie an icicle hitch for using a single-line snubber !

Better man than I am. I've learned to tie an icicle hitch a few times. Retention is my problem - I forget within minutes. But hey, if you listen carefully when I'm tying a bowline, you'll hear me muttering "rabbit comes our of the hole and around the tree....."

For those curious, here's an icicle hitch. It's superb for horizontal pulls on a slick post such as a stanchion.

https://youtu.be/stSVqdQFtfs

Peter.