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02-10-2014, 05:02 PM
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#1
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Member
City: San Diego
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5
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New to large boats
Awaiting a boat survey - set for tomorrow- understand the broker ordered an oil change done two days ago. Is this unusual?
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02-10-2014, 05:06 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
City: Victoria BC
Vessel Name: LUCKY US
Vessel Model: American Tug
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 267
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Welcome sky. Yes that does seem quite odd. I'd be cautious! Tells us more about the boat.
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02-10-2014, 05:14 PM
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#3
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Member
City: San Diego
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5
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1989, 61 ft Defever... Extended POC. Have a buyer agreement signed. Boat was supposed to be as is pending survey. Mechanical surveyor on the boat today said no use for an oil sample, oil changed two days ago by the seller's broker....makes me wonder why, is agreement void...
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02-10-2014, 05:17 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
City: Victoria BC
Vessel Name: LUCKY US
Vessel Model: American Tug
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 267
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I guess it can be if your not confident about the survey. Depending on how it's worded, most surveys are "upon satisfactory". So if your not satisfied then you can make the argument. What did the mechanic have to say about the engine otherwise?
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02-10-2014, 05:20 PM
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#5
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Member
City: San Diego
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5
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Still going over it...wanted to do preliminary survey with cold engines. Sea trial tomorrow
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02-10-2014, 05:27 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
City: Victoria BC
Vessel Name: LUCKY US
Vessel Model: American Tug
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 267
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This is one of the reasons I don't hold a lot of weight to having oil samples done when purchasing. The very fact that a broker would have it done to boot, does at first raise some eyebrows. Ya never know though, so I wouldnt be to quick to walk. Could still be a good deal. I'd wait and see what the Mech has to say first. And the results of the sea trial too. Maybe the broker was just having it done because it was way over due. Ya just never know.
Good luck and keep us posted on the progress. Sounds like it could be a real nice boat if it works out.
Cheers
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02-10-2014, 05:33 PM
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#7
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Technical Guru
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
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Take the engine oil samples anyway, after a vigorous test run. If anything bad is happening in engine, there will be hints of it in the sample even after a few hours run. Run the boat as hard as they let you.
When changing diesel engine oil, usually 10-20% of the old oil remains. Enough to flag a problem even if recently changed.
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02-10-2014, 05:37 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
City: Victoria BC
Vessel Name: LUCKY US
Vessel Model: American Tug
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 267
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Possibly. But you don't know if this is the first oil change or the tenth one that week. If someone suspect a problem with the engine. They will go to great lengths to hide it.
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02-10-2014, 05:54 PM
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#9
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Guru
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,602
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Why not ask the broker why the oil was changed? 95% of what you need to know mechanically will come out in the sea trial, out of the water survey and the general appearance and cleanliness of the ER and related systems.
What engines?
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02-10-2014, 06:45 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: North Charleston, SC
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser
Why not ask the broker why the oil was changed? 95% of what you need to know mechanically will come out in the sea trial, out of the water survey and the general appearance and cleanliness of the ER and related systems.
What engines?
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The broker might not be totally honest in his answer to that question. It seems a bit shady to me.
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02-10-2014, 07:08 PM
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#11
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 26,342
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I guess the sage advice is never buy a boat where the owner doesn't have a decent set of logs to show you and a file of receipts....
If the guy has a log...the answer might lie there.
It could also be the opposite what some are saying...maybe the broker has had his share of newbies to diesels and they panic when they see black oil.
As long as the boat price is in the ballpark and on the low side...wait a minute...what kind of engines and how many hrs? Maybe they are throwaways anyhow. Run them till they break whether a decade or 15 minutes...
If you aren't comfortable with a repower/rebuild in the next few years anyway....then you should be lowballing and crying foul if you don't get a good answer on the oil change. For a boat that big it's hard to imagine there isn't a nice set of documentation...if not..I'd be skeptical of buying it.
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02-10-2014, 07:12 PM
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#12
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Guru
City: Thibodaux, Louisiana
Vessel Name: Gumbo
Vessel Model: 2003 Monk 36
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,882
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Are the maintenance logs available? They could be fudged so have to be taken with a grain of salt but might give you a clue as to the care taken, or not, of the boat.
Was the boat owner maintained or by a shop or mechanic who could be contacted for info.
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02-10-2014, 07:16 PM
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#13
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Guru
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,977
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Like it says in the Torah," beware of brokers who change oil, (without a reason?)run from them as you would the plague." The broker has some 'splainin' to do.
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02-10-2014, 07:42 PM
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#14
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Guru
City: Powell River, BC
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,913
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Oil analysis is best used to trend parameters. It has little value as a snapshot.
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02-10-2014, 07:59 PM
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#15
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Technical Guru
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy
Oil analysis is best used to trend parameters. It has little value as a snapshot.
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Not entirely true. High Na or K or fuel tells a story without needing a trend. True that wear metal concentrations don't make much sense without a trend.
If a sample has 500ppm sodium, engine has a problem regardless what it might have been previously.
Oil samples are not a perfect tool at all, but useful anyway. 95% of "snapshot" samples tell you very little. But that other 5% could save you $40k (or more!!).
In the OP's case, it is worth it to pull samples after a good test run. The cost is low.
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02-10-2014, 07:59 PM
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#16
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Guru
City: St. Lucie VILLAGE -NOT- Port St. Lucie!!!!!
Vessel Model: 15' Hobie Power Skiff w/90hp Yamaha-owned 28 years. Also a 2001 Bayliner 3788 that I took in trade
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skytaylor7
Awaiting a boat survey - set for tomorrow- understand the broker ordered an oil change done two days ago. Is this unusual?
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Considering the size of the boat, I'm thinking those aren't little engines, therefore a oil change was quite expensive if he brought in professionals on HIS dime, so WHY did he do it? I'd really be concerned he was hiding something if he knew a survey was coming up. It's an extremely unusual action, as oil samples will be virtually worthless in showing engine wear.
Is he licensed and reputable? It would make me think "what else is being hidden?" You definitely should bring in an engine surveyor to do a thorough inspection- NOT just the hull surveyor doing a quick look-over.
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02-10-2014, 08:29 PM
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#17
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Member
City: San Diego
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5
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Thanks to everyone who has replied these were 3208TA 1989 vintage. I am aware that one oil sample does not tell the story but it does give you a baseline or a place to begin and was surprised to see that owner or broker would do that after we had the purchase agreement and knew we were moving to a mechanical and sea trial. Just a red flag we were concerned with and wondered if anyone else that had any experience such as this. Once again thanks for all responses will let you know how it goes.
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02-10-2014, 09:06 PM
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#18
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Guru
City: Portland, OR
Vessel Name: Our Heaven
Vessel Model: 1997 4800 Navigator
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 801
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Several things come to mind, one do you know indeed the oil sample came from the offered vessel? Also if the sample was indeed then taken to say Caterpillar to do the analysis I'd take it at face value. In addition, nothig stops you from taking your own samples after sea trial and waiting for your own analysis. Than if there are any differences between yours and theirs that might be a good give a way!!
When I completed my survey the mechanic did the sampling when I wasn't in the boat. I question as to whether he did a sampling of my boat in the first place. As well as the compression. I'd make sure to witness everything for yourself so you indeed know it was from your boat!
__________________
“Try something you could fail at. We all do things that we can comfortably achieve, but rarely do we set the high bar one notch above what we think we can clear, and that’s what’s driving me on here.” Lieutenant Colonel Alastair Edward Henry Worsley MBE (4 October 1960 – 24 January 2016) Explorer
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02-12-2014, 09:05 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
City: Victoria BC
Vessel Name: LUCKY US
Vessel Model: American Tug
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 267
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So how did the sea trial go and the rest of the survey?
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02-12-2014, 03:48 PM
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#20
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Member
City: San Diego
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5
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juesky;
though I've not received written reports, and summation, bout 2/3ds of the way through the hull survey we kinda figured enough was enough. Though the boat is only 26 yrs old there are enough things that I'm not sure I want to deal with. Cost of rebuilding or replacing so many of house systems.. structure questions...leaks, sure you get the picture.Looks nice and really like the layout and design when we get a chance to read over a actual list of repairs and can compare costs associated might be better able to make a decision as to our plans. However oil samples are the least of our concerns. Ha Ha . thanks again to all, and Good things for ya.
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