New Convert from Sailing

[Captain_Michael]

Just sold my sailboat, a 46' Moody center cockpit, earlier this month. Bitter sweet experience, but getting up in years and the maintenance on a 46' sailboat was getting to be a bit much, and we are ready for something different.

Momentarily boat-less, but probably will be looking into a trawler later this spring or summer, hence joining this forum. Chartering would make more financial sense than owning, except we are interested in a version of the Big Loop, and that sort or rules out renting. We want to take the boat from the Eastern seaboard to the Great Lakes for a summer or two, then bring her back to the Eastern seaboard via the St. Lawrence and around Nova Scotia.

Both of us are retired so we would spend the summers on the boat and put her ashore in the winter. We are used to cruising (more coastal than off shore), and I can do a fair amount of the maintenance. Have rented trawler-like boats on the Rideau Canal in Canada a couple of times. Enjoyed the experience more than I thought I would.

Joining the forum to get an idea of the issues of trawler cruising along with listening to the owners of the various makes discuss strengths and weaknesses of their vessels.

 

[KnotYet]

Welcome aboard, Capt.

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. Sounds like a good plan.

 

[rgano]

Glad to have you aboard, Captain. I am unfamiliar with Daniel Island. Would you care to tell us about it?

 

[Captain_Michael]

Daniel Island is in Charleston Harbor--just north beyond the cable-stayed bridge that is the hallmark of the harbor. The island actually is more of a peninsula between the Wando (to starboard) and Cooper (to port) Rivers when passing under the bridge. Used to belong to the Guggenheim family as a hunting preserve and some cattle ranches, and it was fairly isolated and hard to get to. That changed in 1995 when I-526 was extended east of I-26 to Mt. Pleasant, crossing Daniel Island. Development began then and is almost complete now. There are three "areas" of some 7000 homes, apartments and condos comprising the island: two residential areas with a commercial region (stores, shops, fire/police, waterfront area, retirement home, churches, schools, libraries) between them, all located on the east side of the island. The first residential area, the older one, is opposite the state port authority on the Wando River, then there is the commercial area (the Volvo Tennis stadium the most visible landmark) with some docking, then the park side along the Wando with more homes and golf courses. I-526 divides the island with the older residential and commercial areas to the west; the park side to the east. There is some transient space on the docks, but I did not keep my boat there when I had her--the taxes on boats in SC are ugly, characterized as personal property and at a rate higher than automobile taxes.

 

[Jeff F]

Welcome. That route you describe is commonly called the Down East Circle or Loop. You'll find some discussion here on that and also on looper forums. Sounds like a great plan to me, and many summers can be spent cruising the Great Lakes and associated waterways.

Sent from my SM-A125W using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[rgano]

Daniel Island is in Charleston Harbor--just north beyond the cable-stayed bridge that is the hallmark of the harbor....../QUOTE]

Thanks for that. Where would you expect to moor your new trawler?

 

[Captain_Michael]

I am far from purchasing a trawler. Have to do a lot of research, convince myself to go back into debt and payments, then act, and act in the spring so I can start the loop. But if all the planets line up, I would also try to buy a vessel in ready to go condition. So a month renting a slip where I buy the boat to get her ready and loaded, and then off to start the Downeast Loop.

If I can do that, I avoid an annual slip fee which I would like to do as I know I'll have enough slip fees in marinas over the course of the loop plus winter storage, and by moving, I avoid the property tax. Property tax is based on where the boat is moored or docked. Storage or docking a boat at a yard for repair work is not seen as a taxable location, and in winter storage, there are always some repairs that need doing.

I used to keep my sailboat in Kilmarnock, VA, Northern Neck, Chesapeake Bay, in Lancaster County. Lancaster dropped its boat-property taxes and makes far more revenue in sales taxes from local purchases, yard work, boaters eating out, etc. A third of the boats from the neighboring country (which kept its tax) moved to Lancaster the year they dropped the boat tax.

 

[N4061]

Welcome to Trawler Forum. It sounds like you have a few options based on your travel plans. Remember many items associated with the "cost of ownership" of any boat (power or sail) are similar so be careful thinking a trawler may cost less. I'm experiencing the reverse (trawler to sail) today and the only real savings is related to the difference in size (40' trawler to 16' Sailboat). As I explore potentially larger sailboats, I see very similar costs to our trawlers (slip fees, insurance, hull cleaning, washing / waxing, maintenance, taxes, etc....).

John T.

 

[O C Diver]

Have to do a lot of research, convince myself to go back into debt and payments, then act, and act in the spring so I can start the loop. But if all the planets line up, I would also try to buy a vessel in ready to go condition. So a month renting a slip where I buy the boat to get her ready and loaded, and then off to start the Downeast Loop.

That's a very ambitious schedule.

The Downeast Loop can be quite a bit more rugged than the Great Loop and repair facilities in both are fewer and further between. I've done the Loop, spent a summer in Lake Superior, and did some research on the Downeast Loop. My caution to you isn't about doing it, but about the amount of time needed to make sure systems are current, no postponed maintenance, and the boat will handle the conditions you may encounter. If you plan to spend a summer in the Great Lakes before heading out the St. Lawrence River, then you will likely have a better handle on your boat's systems and its ocean capabilities.

Ted

 

[Captain_Michael]

That is the plan--a summer on the Lakes, put the boat ashore for the winter, then out and down the St, Lawrence the next year (in the summer).

Nothing makes sense financially about owning a boat unless it is a workboat. Otherwise, the boat is that hole in the water into which we toss bundles of money.

 

[Bacchus]

Welcome aboard TF
Lots of great cruising options in the NE. I have N etc a number of loopers that return or winter their boat in the area to explore the territory they bypassed looping. The Trent Severn Waterway and Georgian Bay are worth a season of exploring alone.
My Bacchus website has a cruising notes section with some info to entice you.

 

[Captain_Michael]

Bacchus,

Thank you. My wife and I have rented canal boats twice from LeBoat on the Rideau system. The first trip was our 50th anniversary in 2019 and we liked it so much we planned to return in 2020. Covid zapped that, but we made it in September 2021.

Have rented sailboats for over a decade up on Manitoulin Island and the North Channel, so we look forward to filling in the gap between Rideau and Georgian Bay--the Trent-Severn Waterway--hopefully on our own bottom some day soon.

 

[Bacchus]

Captain-Michael
I have never rented the LeBoats but have recommended them to many that are interested in buying boats as a way to experience cruising and figuring out what their musts, wants and don't wants are for a boat.
If interested, I have a Cruising Notes section on my Bacchus website (linked in my signature). The 2019 Georgian Bay cruise is the most complete. Lots of info from prep & planning, lessons learned and a daily log (with track and pics).

 

[backinblue]

Just sold my sailboat, a 46' Moody center cockpit, earlier this month. Bitter sweet experience, but getting up in years and the maintenance on a 46' sailboat was getting to be a bit much, and we are ready for something different.

Welcome aboard! Many of us here are former sailboat owners, but not sure it was the expectation of less maintenance that drove us here. It's generally more comfortable conditions to travel in and less physical effort than sailing. Just curious if you really expect a decrease in maintenance and why? I guess maybe a much smaller trawler than 46' could be easier to maintain.

 

[psneeld]

Considering how much time many sailors are under power... it is a natural gravitation to a boat type more suitable....

World sailors I apologize...but there are but a few in your category.

 

[diver dave]

I"ve heard many times of this "physical effort" effect, in reference of the escaping sail and going to power. I'm doing the opposite and nearing retirement.

Are people finding winch grinding to be this effort? or, listing hulls, or raising halyards??

True, I've only been sailing for less than a year, but have done almost a thousand miles of ocean transit already. I find working on cars to be more demanding. or yard work, or...

thinking more on this, certainly racing is demanding; but, racing power boats vs sail maybe even more so.

 

[backinblue]

A lot of the physical effort can be taken out of sailing compared to in the past. Modern furling systems, self-tacking headsails, electric winches, etc. So then it comes down to the comfort of passage where I think most would agree a trawler wins. I know that's a generalization and you can always cite examples to the contrary. I actually enjoy sailing more because motoring can be a little boring at times, but I do find it more comfortable especially in bad weather.

 

[diver dave]

I think my limited past has contaminated my thinking. Its' been 99% southern boating, where the sun in the eyes issue is far more painful than the "its cold" issue. Also, I do 90% + of all the boat work myself, and I still have 4 x big block rebuilds in my mind on the power side. My current little 29hp diesels seem so easy to wrestle with. And, my sailcat makes a fine power boat, level cruising, quiet, but true, only a piece of fabric over the helm, and a fake window ahead to keep out the spray. But, usually 70 to 80's water temp.

 

[psneeld]

As usual...depends on the boat, its layout and its primary cruising use.

Some boats are hard and uncomfy, others better suited...whether sail or power.

Small and offshore, hard to make a trawler more seaworthy than a good small sailing vessel. Those attributes make it less "comfy" on various levels.

 

[DavidM]

A trawler with a warm, dry pilot house is the main difference to me vs a sailboat with an exposed aft helm. Even the bimini won't protect you from rain from the stern.

And maybe another difference is windows at eye level in a trawler, usually not in a sailboat.

Maintenance differences are a matter of access. Trawlers under 35' don't have much better engine access than sail boats.

David

 

[Captain_Michael]

My sailboat was 46'. She had the deck gear that cut down on the physical labor--power main winches, roller reefing for the main, jib and staysail. Sails were set and struck but once a year. Had a hard dodger and bimini with full enclosure sides (mosquito netting and/or isinglass) so crappy weather could be minimized. But she was twenty years old and something always needed attending. 46' is not a small vessel, and I liked to keep her looking good, so cleaning, varnishing, polishing, etc., was a chore--even with an awlgrip hull! I kept her in the Chesapeake Bay area, so in the summer breezes were limited and one did a lot of motoring. The sailboat is the powerboat with the big stick sort of thing.

Two years ago my wife slipped and fell from the boat to the dock when getting off--maybe 4'. Broke a wrist and more importantly, some confidence. We're in our mid-70's, and we want to keep on the water, so a trawler with its greater roominess, lower freeboard, etc., seems the next step. We'll look around, go to the Trawler Fest in Stuart in March, probably the powerboat show in Annapolis in the fall, that sort of thing. No rush. Will likely charter a trawler in the fall in cooler weather.

 

[Captain_Michael]

Bacchus---I did look at the Georgian Bay-Trent Severn spots on your website. Nicely done. I ended up in logistics in the military so I can appreciate and commend your attention to comprehensive planning.

We used to go over to Killarney and down to Tobermory when I chartered boats out of Gore Bay. Wonderful area for sailing and boating--in the summer!

 

[backinblue]

My sailboat was 46'. She had the deck gear that cut down on the physical labor--power main winches, roller reefing for the main, jib and staysail. Sails were set and struck but once a year. Had a hard dodger and bimini with full enclosure sides (mosquito netting and/or isinglass) so crappy weather could be minimized. But she was twenty years old and something always needed attending. 46' is not a small vessel, and I liked to keep her looking good, so cleaning, varnishing, polishing, etc., was a chore--even with an awlgrip hull! I kept her in the Chesapeake Bay area, so in the summer breezes were limited and one did a lot of motoring. The sailboat is the powerboat with the big stick sort of thing.

Two years ago my wife slipped and fell from the boat to the dock when getting off--maybe 4'. Broke a wrist and more importantly, some confidence. We're in our mid-70's, and we want to keep on the water, so a trawler with its greater roominess, lower freeboard, etc., seems the next step. We'll look around, go to the Trawler Fest in Stuart in March, probably the powerboat show in Annapolis in the fall, that sort of thing. No rush. Will likely charter a trawler in the fall in cooler weather.

Makes perfect sense now, thanks Michael. Good luck with your search. You thinking brand new purchase? That will certainly cut down on maintenance. Just know that lead times are getting long on desireable boats. Maybe you can find something that's just a few years old and lightly used. There are a few members here having new Helmsman Trawlers built. Nice boat for not a lot of money IMO and resale value should hold up well. Good luck with wherever you land.

 

[N4061]

Question

A lot of the physical effort can be taken out of sailing compared to in the past. Modern furling systems, self-tacking headsails, electric winches, etc. So then it comes down to the comfort of passage where I think most would agree a trawler wins. I know that's a generalization and you can always cite examples to the contrary. I actually enjoy sailing more because motoring can be a little boring at times, but I do find it more comfortable especially in bad weather.

Looking for a little more information on "comfort of passage". As a trawler guy who still has never sailed (new boat still in the garage) but thinks about the potential of a larger sailboat possibly with a raised pilothouse / salon (Moody 42 or 45 as an example) or even a Motor Sailor (N56 as an example) what am I missing about comfort?

The original Nordhavn46 was basically a sailboat hull with an engine and paravanes. I can recall its gentle motion (swaying from side to side) without the fins or active stabilizers and would think a sailboat of equal size with deep heavy keel and sail would provide either similar or more comfortable ride? What am I missing?

Granted the view from land of a sailboat tied to a mooring during a storm doesn't look all that appealing but then again, she is just sitting there.

Is this whole "comfort" thing more about piloting the boat from the Air-conditioned or heated Pilot House in comfortable clothing sipping on a boat drink? Been there, done that and even this gets a little boring over time. I would think I could do the same in the raised cabin of a SB.

Looking for all opinions as I continue to work towards launching the Sandpiper someday soon (no cabin or PH so it's all weather permitting). Thanks

John T.

 

[backinblue]

John T. you are absolutely correct and I knew I would get a reply like yours which is why I said I was generalizing. The type of sailboat you are describing is not what the majority of people sail in. By comfort I mean being inside out of the weather which is entirely possible in some (small %) of sailboats. And I also said that motoring can get boring as compared to sailing. I also agree that in rough conditions, if you can be inside a pilothouse of a sailboat it may well be more comfortable than a trawler. I have never sailed on a boat like that so I'm not sure if all sail handling (such as reefing and trimming) can be accomplished from inside with no physical effort.

 

[N4061]

Sailing

John T. you are absolutely correct and I knew I would get a reply like yours which is why I said I was generalizing. The type of sailboat you are describing is not what the majority of people sail in. By comfort I mean being inside out of the weather which is entirely possible in some (small %) of sailboats. And I also said that motoring can get boring as compared to sailing. I also agree that in rough conditions, if you can be inside a pilothouse of a sailboat it may well be more comfortable than a trawler. I have never sailed on a boat like that so I'm not sure if all sail handling (such as reefing and trimming) can be accomplished from inside with no physical effort.

Totally understand the generalization and get it. I have a lot to learn before even thinking what I believe may work as a sailing trawler is even possible. If I learned anything about myself from years boating it's that I enjoy the connection with the water (to a degree and in nice weather) and discovered we lost some of that with the trawlers. Even time spent in the flybridge (less than 10% of total time aboard) felt far away from the water. You have to remember I grew up on the water with small outboard boats then a 22' Mako CC in southern California. I have no idea if after learning to sail and spending time in our open cockpit Sandpiper will convince me that I still have that "near the water" desire or just remind me that I miss the PH trawler.

Life is too short not to try everything.

John T

 

[mvweebles]

Totally understand the generalization and get it. I have a lot to learn before even thinking what I believe may work as a sailing trawler is even possible. If I learned anything about myself from years boating it's that I enjoy the connection with the water (to a degree and in nice weather) and discovered we lost some of that with the trawlers. Even time spent in the flybridge (less than 10% of total time aboard) felt far away from the water. You have to remember I grew up on the water with small outboard boats then a 22' Mako CC in southern California. I have no idea if after learning to sail and spending time in our open cockpit Sandpiper will convince me that I still have that "near the water" desire or just remind me that I miss the PH trawler.



Life is too short not to try everything.



John T

Interesting. This is the first time I've read someone else articulate something my wife and I have felt for years - there is something about our boat that feels connected. Maybe because it's such an old, classic design. Our Willard 36 has an enormous and nicely protected cockpit. The design is low in the water and thus feels very connected to the water. There is a downside to this too - getting the exhaust system right on our trawler is as difficult as it is on a sailboat.

I have a fair amount of time on a friend's Brewer 46 pilot house sailboat. The design is heavily skewed towards sail performance - more of a center cockpit sailboat with a raised salon. We sailed it out of San Francisco up and down the California coast. Visibility from below wasn't great, but good enough (while better, visibility on my Willard 36 isn't great either). My friend would single hand the boat, which is saying something given brisk winds of San Francisco. Very nice boat - circumstances around his divorce forced him to sell. A few years later he , bought another boat - this time, a powerboat. He crewed for me in several deliveries and fell in love with trawlers.

Although I'm pretty sure Weebles will be our last boat, I sometimes daydream of something else, and a motorsailor creeps in though for me I view sail as stability and power-assist versus a cure for boredom. Something like a Fisher catches my eye. Or a trawler with a decent sail plan such as Mark Pierces Coot 38.

When I first started delivering, I delivered both sail and power. I quickly stopped delivering sail partially because sailboats are slow and therefore relatively expensive to deliver (thus objectionable to the owners who seemed frugal to begin with). But also because sitting in a cockpit exposed to weather for a couple days sort of sucks. Going forward for any reason can be hazardous - I just felt there were a lot more ways to get hurt on a sailboat than a powerboat and since delivering was my livelihood, prudence suggested I shy away from sail. Plus owners of Nordhavn trawlers didn't balk at paying a delivery skipper.

There is a big, big difference between day/weekend sailing a sailboat vs cruising one. Sure you can motor a sailboat and you can't sail a powerboat. But few sailboats are optimized for powering. Engines are often squeezed into a space where maintenance is poor. Poor noise insulation. Props are optimized to reduce drag when sailing.

I do miss sailing, but mostly I miss dinghy sailing. Best of both worlds would be a trawler large enough to carry a pair of Lasers on deck for sailing around anchorages.

Thanks for sharing your decision process. Keep it up!

Peter

Attached picture is Nokken, a sistership, on San Francisco Bay. View attachment 124373

 

[backinblue]

I agree with both of these previous posts and concur that the connection to the water is a big thing I miss about sailing. I hope to find the right time and place to at least enjoy day sailing again. It's more than just being close to the water. It's hard to describe the feeling when there is no motor running and you are keenly aware of the forces of wind and water moving your boat and how you react to them.

 

[DavidM]

For me it is more about being in control of the forces of mother nature while sailing. Motoring is dependent on a complex mechanical device. Sailing is harnessing the forces of wind and sea.

It can be exhilarating, and it can be scary, but hopefully scary in a nice way.

David