Women boating?

[Muirgen Afloat]

I have great hope in learning everything about handling the boat we just got. The first boat we had many years ago, I was so busy wrangling kids that I didn't get a lot of the hands on experience of the actually running.
I agree there is a little issue with learning from a spouse. Our first trip last weekend, we definitely learned the value of "marriage savers" (radios), I won't do any running now without them. I definitely looking up some boating classes to take as I need a big refresher on rules of the road and all the other boating stuff that I learned 19 years ago and forgot over not using. Would be super interesting to do some runs on others boats to learn without the emotional ties in it.
For now I am just going to figure it out as I go.. I did discover with the current, tides and just different handling of this boat's helm my steering is like a drunk sailor.. So hopefully that will improve soon.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

Wifey B: A number of reasons. I hate to say this but TF hasn't been friendly to women. Several couples and several women have left here due to the treatment and due to the general flavor of the forum. Only a few of us are stubborn enough to persevere. I try to welcome and encourage women but even those who join find, unfortunately, a grouchy old man attitude prevailing. There's a lot of condescension shown here toward women, even spouses, with negative comments and stereotypical labels. Perhaps if there were more women, it would be more comfortable for new women, but until it's more comfortable we're not going to have the number of new women we need. I hate to say these things but the question was asked and I'm trying to just give an honest answer.

I have to disagree with this. I haven't been a member long, but I've had nothing but respect and help with all my questions (even the stupid ones). Sure they has been some grouchy old man attitudes, but it's been the minority and definitely not something that would drive me away from the forum.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

I think all wives should at least have a basic understanding of how to operate the boat for emergencies like MOB or even just for a bathroom break for the capt. But just because my wife is more comfortable with me at the helm during docking while she tends to the lines, doesn't diminish her in any way in my eyes. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I have no problem calling her "my better half" and meaning it sincerely. I guess some would find that condescending too.

I suppose some could consider this condescending, but after 30+ years of marriage I consider it balance. Finding out what role each partner is comfortable with and making it your lifestyle. Kudos for you and her for doing what works for your marriage.

 

[backinblue]

I suppose some could consider this condescending, but after 30+ years of marriage I consider it balance. Finding out what role each partner is comfortable with and making it your lifestyle. Kudos for you and her for doing what works for your marriage.

Just curious what you consider condescending? We are at 40+ years so I guess it's working so far!

 

[Janet H]

But, for TF to be "fully gender diverse and inclusive",we`d need a Site Team from the various GLTBI categories plus....

Just pointing out that this is the internet - what we "think" we know about someone is based on what they've told us and our own bias. As an example - I could be a pencil-necked geeky 17 year old boy - how would you really ever know?

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

Just curious what you consider condescending? We are at 40+ years so I guess it's working so far!

I think a lot of is the tone of how something is said. We were metal sculptors before we started living full time on a boat. We both did the design, the cutting, cleaning, welding, building etc on it. But almost every art show we did I had to deal with JoeBillyBob in the booth... who would question me on who did the work..saying something like "But your husband does the welding, right?" Why they think the welding is the hard part, I'll never understand.

I suppose it's always the tone that implies you are incapable of something because of your gender.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

Just pointing out that this is the internet - what we "think" we know about someone is based on what they've told us and our own bias. As an example - I could be a pencil-necked geeky 17 year old boy - how would you really ever know?

I'm dying.. thank you for the great chuckle this morning.. :lol:

 

[backinblue]

I think a lot of is the tone of how something is said. We were metal sculptors before we started living full time on a boat. We both did the design, the cutting, cleaning, welding, building etc on it. But almost every art show we did I had to deal with JoeBillyBob in the booth... who would question me on who did the work..saying something like "But your husband does the welding, right?" Why they think the welding is the hard part, I'll never understand.

I suppose it's always the tone that implies you are incapable of something because of your gender.

That's part of the problem with a forum where there are only words and you decide what tone to attach to them which could be very different than what the person was thinking when they wrote them.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

That's part of the problem with a forum where there are only words and you decide what tone to attach to them which could be very different than what the person was thinking when they wrote them.

Plus, everyone thinks they are clever and have a sense of humor which of course can’t possibly be true :

 

[kthoennes]

At the risk of sounding like yet another cranky old (male) curmudgeon, as long as we're airing peeves and sensitivities, it drives me nuts when people use phrases like "we need to attract more [insert demographic here]." Okay, how many more? Want to set a quota? Oh certainly not -- just "more." Well what's a good "more" quotient then? Or when politicians and other issue-advocates use the phrase "too many" -- as in "too many babies have died from unsafe, faulty cribs." Too many military personnel are committing suicide. Too many teenagers self-harm. Every time I hear that "too many" phrase I think to myself, too many? Well okay then, how many was not too many, how many was still acceptable? Same as "too long" -- for too long now our people have been suffering under [name X social condition or injustice]. Okay, what was the acceptable period then, if it's too long now?

Yes, okay, B&B triggered this rant with "...we're not going to have the number of women we need." Well okay then, just how many is that? 5? 500? 5,000? 6.02 x 10^23? Maybe I spent too much time as a mechanical engineering major in college (and then an English major even worse!) but we constantly hear that feel-good, faux-assertive but utterly vague and completely imprecise, gassy phrasing in social and public policy debates (and forum debates) and it drives me nuts.

For too long, too many boaters have died in explosive fiery gas explosions! Okay then, how many were acceptable? When did we pass the thresholds of "too long" and "too many" in hideous loss of life?

Okay, end of gratuitous rant. I feel better. I've been bottling that in for too long.

 

[backinblue]

I agree and tried to say the same thing in a different way earlier. People who own and enjoy trawlers are going to fit in a very narrow demographic. Like it or not that is reality. If you don't like the type of people who make up the majority of the membership, then don't participate. I'm not making excuses for bad behavior, but there should not be a push to try and change the membership to meet some ideal quota. I wouldn't join the local Italian-American club and then complain that there are too many Italians in the club and they shouldn't celebrate Columbus day.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

You bottle your opinions?

 

[Janet H]

.... If you don't like the type of people who make up the majority of the membership, then don't participate. I'm not making excuses for bad behavior, but there should not be a push to try and change the membership to meet some ideal quota.

I disagree. The forum is intended to be welcoming and helpful and fun.

The problem arises when one persons idea of helpful or fun rubs someone else the wrong way. Assessing where the responsibility for maintaining the community posting vibe lies is the responsibility of the site team (once they are aware there's an issue). Was a poster over the line or did the reader take intent that was not there? Big question.

The site team spends a fair amount of time on this very issue. Newbies are often (for example) logged in seeking advice and are really put off when a snarky comment is lobbed into a discussion. The "snarky" comment may have been intended as funny but was received as cruel and the welcoming vibe we seek is undermined. That new member will never be back.

The same is true for comments, jokes and cartoons that perpetuate stereotypes that many women (especially) find offensive. These can be akin to the pin up calendars in old garages...yes, many men enjoy the view, but on the flip side women find them misogynistic. Perspective matters.

We have lots of site rules: https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/misc.php?do=sknetwork&page=rules

The short version is: be nice, be welcoming, be helpful, be appropriate and be reasonable.

Over the years we have made a number of changes aimed at making the site more approachable as without a steady stream of new members, the site will wither. Restrictions on some topics (politics, weapons, etc) are in place for this reason. We are a boating board - folks visit here to discuss boating and in the past the free flow of sewage from these topic areas while fun for a few, was offensive to a far larger group.

Finding balance is a tough gig but there is need to continually consider where we are and where we're going.

If you don't like the type of people who make up the majority of the membership, then don't participate.

This doesn't work on tech heavy discussion forums. Inevitably trolls and aggressive posters drive disrupt topics and drive away reasonable people and new members. All that remains are a few diehard trolls and the board slowly sinks.

 

[kthoennes]

I think backinblue kind of nailed it -- I think the forum membership simply tends to correspond to or reflect the prevailing likely clientele. I'll bet the great majority of those who maintain and operate big(ger) boats are men, and of those, most are going to be older because it generally or usually takes a higher-than-average income to float our boats. Cold hard stats. Not always of course, but generally. I think this forum is largely and probably an accurate reflection of the demographics of those who own and maintain the boats and would logically have an interest in the topics and discussions. Certainly and happily there are many exceptions, like Peggy Hall, and I couldn't be happier she's a contributor. Her presence and her advice directly solved a persistent problem we had for years.

I'll never forget standing at the Jeep/Eagle dealer in Anchorage one day waiting in line. The service guy was talking to a woman in front of me who had a loose plug wire. He painfully explained the problem to her as if she were three years old. Turns out she was a jet fighter mechanic at Elmendorf. It was hilarious, one of my favorite moments in gender interactions. Got a kick out of it, but let's face it, it is statistically rare.

At the same time, while my wife and I are a team on the boat, we have very different roles and preferences. This forum is about the only online or social media I do (if we can really call it social media -- to me this forum has a huge utilitarian value beyond social media in the typical sense) but my wife makes great fun of it. She has little to no interest. When something breaks on the boat she'll say, Uh oh, better post something to the guys in the trawler forum, we need a replacement for a GZ34X21-34BZ12XYZ cabinet latch in the forward berth.

I had a massive crush on Tania Aebi in college. The Rolex photo! But for every Tania Aebi or Florence Arthaud there are ten Joshua Slocums or Robin Knox-Johnstons. Just the cold hard stats.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

That's part of the problem with a forum where there are only words and you decide what tone to attach to them which could be very different than what the person was thinking when they wrote them.

True same with texts.. sometimes you read things into them that aren't there.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

Plus, everyone thinks they are clever and have a sense of humor which of course can’t possibly be true :

Yeah.. this is also true. As I tell Scot.. sometimes you aren't as funny as you think you are..

 

[Andy G]

As an example - I could be a pencil-necked geeky 17 year old boy - how would you really ever know?

Actually, no you couldn't & how do I know.

Well, you posted a very similar 'hyperthetical' during the OTDE 'wars', in 2015/16. So at the very least you would now be a mid twenties pencil necked geek!

 

[SteveK]

Just pointing out that this is the internet - what we "think" we know about someone is based on what they've told us and our own bias. As an example - I could be a pencil-necked geeky 17 year old boy - how would you really ever know?

Now you sound like a cougar, just saying, if you insert 'with' after could.

 

[Janet H]

Now you sound like a cougar, just saying, if you insert 'with' after could.

Right - but I would not. There are laws and... well, it's inappropriate.

 

[SteveK]

Right - but I would not. There are laws and... well, it's inappropriate.

OK, I will be 18 next June.

 

[BruceK]

Just pointing out that this is the internet - what we "think" we know about someone is based on what they've told us and our own bias. As an example - I could be a pencil-necked geeky 17 year old boy - how would you really ever know?

So true. Takes me back to squeezing blackheads . There could be diverse range of Site Team genders already. Or not.

Ah, the joys of the internet... you go through a lot of salt.
Any female volunteers yet?

 

[Peter B]

Okay, end of gratuitous rant. I feel better. I've been bottling that in for too long.

Yep...far too long...oh sorry, how long would have been long enough then..?

 

[Seevee]

At the risk of sounding like yet another cranky old (male) curmudgeon, as long as we're airing peeves and sensitivities, it drives me nuts when people use phrases like "we need to attract more [insert demographic here]." Okay, how many more? Want to set a quota? Oh certainly not -- just "more." Well what's a good "more" quotient then? Or when politicians and other issue-advocates use the phrase "too many" -- as in "too many babies have died from unsafe, faulty cribs." Too many military personnel are committing suicide. Too many teenagers self-harm. Every time I hear that "too many" phrase I think to myself, too many? Well okay then, how many was not too many, how many was still acceptable? Same as "too long" -- for too long now our people have been suffering under [name X social condition or injustice]. Okay, what was the acceptable period then, if it's too long now?

Yes, okay, B&B triggered this rant with "...we're not going to have the number of women we need." Well okay then, just how many is that? 5? 500? 5,000? 6.02 x 10^23? Maybe I spent too much time as a mechanical engineering major in college (and then an English major even worse!) but we constantly hear that feel-good, faux-assertive but utterly vague and completely imprecise, gassy phrasing in social and public policy debates (and forum debates) and it drives me nuts.

For too long, too many boaters have died in explosive fiery gas explosions! Okay then, how many were acceptable? When did we pass the thresholds of "too long" and "too many" in hideous loss of life?

Okay, end of gratuitous rant. I feel better. I've been bottling that in for too long.

kthoennes,


GREAT POST and so true, and totally agree.

 

[Judy at JWY]

I have always been treated respectfully and professionally on TF. If I weren't, I would have dropped off like I have on all other forums but one. Why aren't there more female Brokers? Engineers? Captains? The numbers are slowly increasing but in minuscule percentages. Does it bother me? No. While I am always glad to come across a woman who is expert in her field, I rarely think about gender in the boating context and not sure how much it matters.

When does it matter? The wife/spouse/SO/girlfriend should know how to save herself and her mate. Can she launch the dinghy by herself? Drop an anchor? Manage the helm? Other than knowing these basic emergency measures, I think the female counterpart should do whatever she wants as long as she is physically and structurally capable of handling it. If the wife isn't volunteering with a smile, then rethink your attitude and priorities. Don't forget that boating is supposed to be fun!

Having been a previous yacht owner, I understand all of the male/female issues in boat handling and lifestyle, including the fact that if my former husband had listened to some of the suggestions posted in this thread, I might not have been divorced. Yes, our boat was a significant factor.

So ladies, please chime in to the posts of interest as your perspective should be heard and I know there are a lot of you from whom we can all learn. But let's not make this a forum based on PC or "rightspeak" rather than common courtesies and decent human behavior.

Thanks to all who have kept me engaged in this forum and from whom I continue to learn. For example, I never thought "admiral" to be an offensive term, maybe corny, but not derogatory. Not sure I ever really use it, but I will certainly refrain henceforth.

Judy

 

[Seevee]

Judy,


Great post and we a blessed to have people like you aboard.


Re: Admiral.....
I never thought it was the lease bit derogatory, and can't begin to see why others do. It's the "top" rank..... the commander of the fleet.



And, yes I use it. My GF loves it and good enough for me.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

For example, I never thought "admiral" to be an offensive term, maybe corny, but not derogatory. Not sure I ever really use it, but I will certainly refrain henceforth.

Judy

I've never thought it was derogatory either.. personally I prefer Supreme Ruler of all she surveys.. but it's just an opinion.

 

[SteveK]

I've never thought it was derogatory either.. personally I prefer Supreme Ruler of all she surveys.. but it's just an opinion.

And on land that is what you shall be called Admiral.

 

[alormaria]

Judy,


Great post and we a blessed to have people like you aboard.


Re: Admiral.....
I never thought it was the lease bit derogatory, and can't begin to see why others do. It's the "top" rank..... the commander of the fleet.



And, yes I use it. My GF loves it and good enough for me.

Twice I've had the pleasure speaking with a female US Coast Guard Admiral.



Making fun of her by calling her "Admiral" was the very, very, very last thing on my mind.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

and on land that is what you shall be called admiral.

lol

 

[slowgoesit]

[/B]

Actually, no you couldn't & how do I know.

Well, you posted a very similar 'hyperthetical' during the OTDE 'wars', in 2015/16. So at the very least you would now be a mid twenties pencil necked geek!

Andy, actually she could have been a really accomplished ELEVEN year old pencil necked computer geek back then! Just sayin'