taxes

[Bay Pelican]

Interesting translation.

Are you suggesting that 47% don't pay Federal Taxes means that 47% are getting a check?

Last number I saw was 113 million were getting some form or assistance which is only 35% not 50%.

 

[FF]

"They do nothing to alleviate the issues we have regarding the disparity of the very rich, the rich, and the well off, from the poor and struggling in our country."


Your proposed solution?

 

[HiDHo]

There’s nothing to keep the very wealthy from paying a few million more to the government.
B&B. “ Be grateful you have other income in retirement other than social security “ I’m gratful but you make it sound like there wasn’t a plan for retirement such as savings, 401k’s, deferred comp plans, investing in income producing for retirement. Those who did this “ foregoed immediate gratification for long term prosperity “ while working several jobs.

 

[menzies]

"They do nothing to alleviate the issues we have regarding the disparity of the very rich, the rich, and the well off, from the poor and struggling in our country."


Your proposed solution?

Freeze tax levels, balance the budget. Like State law, make it a law that the budget has to balance. Then only allow deficit spending in times of a declared war, or natural disaster.

Implement a national service. All kids, male and female, at age 18.Two years in Service. That does not mean armed service only, but across multiple disciplines, giving them a set of skills that are usable in the work force. Offer them entry into the following if they chose.

Technical colleges, stop converting them to four year colleges. Focus them on two year "vocation" courses. Carpentry, electrics, farming, plumbing, construction, etc. with an apprentice program following. It is shocking that in many cases you need a 4.0+ to get into a STATE college, the fall back is currently a two year school which is quickly disappearing.

Look at why state college cost are spiraling out of control, to the extent that many less-well-off families simply cannot afford it. Yes I've seen the arguments about paying your way through school, but it's damn hard to get a job and pay for tuition while you look over your shoulder and see that your extended family are struggling to put food on the table and cover healthcare etc.

Health care. We need to resolve the cost of health care. Everyone points to pharmaceutical prices, the manufacturers. More could be done there, but a stern look at hospital costs, especially specialist and administration costs, needs to happen. Health care can simply not be left to the free market. Burying our heads on the issue due to political stance is not resolving the issue - and it remains a huge issue.

There are a few ideas IMO, but of course politicians feed of division of the electorate, so small chance of any of this happening, especially since they sit in the top part of the divide.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
At the risk of having this post deleted OR the thread ended the only comment I can make is: IF the government used tax $$ more carefully, there would be enough to deal with those needing assistance.


Edit: Mr. M. Good points.

 

[menzies]

I'll add one more thing then I will shut up (maybe).

I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone did give 10% to well run not-for-profit organizations? Not just those that feed the hungry and clothe the poor, but teach skills, build houses, focus on drug and alcohol addiction, etc. etc.

But again, would that be seen as just another tax? Given, as pointed out, there is enough money going to federal, state and local government to do that, if managed appropriately.

 

[caltexflanc]

there is a significant percentage of the bottom 50% who owe their situation to their own bad choices and the government promoting welfare as a way of life.

What percentage is that? How specifically does government promote poverty as a way of life?

And how much has government spent bailing out, subsidizing, and given tax deductions for banks, corporations and farmers (now usually one and the same) who have made bad decisions?

 

[BaltimoreLurker]

Freeze tax levels, balance the budget. Like State law, make it a law that the budget has to balance. Then only allow deficit spending in times of a declared war, or natural disaster.

Implement a national service. All kids, male and female, at age 18.Two years in Service. That does not mean armed service only, but across multiple disciplines, giving them a set of skills that are usable in the work force. Offer them entry into the following if they chose.

Technical colleges, stop converting them to four year colleges. Focus them on two year "vocation" courses. Carpentry, electrics, farming, plumbing, construction, etc. with an apprentice program following. It is shocking that in many cases you need a 4.0+ to get into a STATE college, the fall back is currently a two year school which is quickly disappearing.

Look at why state college cost are spiraling out of control, to the extent that many less-well-off families simply cannot afford it. Yes I've seen the arguments about paying your way through school, but it's damn hard to get a job and pay for tuition while you look over your shoulder and see that your extended family are struggling to put food on the table and cover healthcare etc.

Health care. We need to resolve the cost of health care. Everyone points to pharmaceutical prices, the manufacturers. More could be done there, but a stern look at hospital costs, especially specialist and administration costs, needs to happen. Health care can simply not be left to the free market. Burying our heads on the issue due to political stance is not resolving the issue - and it remains a huge issue.

There are a few ideas IMO, but of course politicians feed of division of the electorate, so small chance of any of this happening, especially since they sit in the top part of the divide.

I agree with all of that and would add - Stop squandering our blood, money, time, and energy and creating more problems by trying to reshape the world to meet our ideals through regime change and nation building.

 

[O C Diver]

What percentage is that? How specifically does government promote poverty as a way of life?

And how much has government spent bailing out, subsidizing, and given tax deductions for banks, corporations and farmers (now usually one and the same) who have made bad decisions?

Ok, since you asked.

What percentage of the poor do you think do some of the following:
Do illegal drugs
Drink significant amounts of alcohol
Smoke cigarettes
Have a $75+ a month cable / satellite TV bill
Gamble / play the lottery
Buy non essentials on credit / impulse buy
Have more children than they can afford

I'm sure you think I'm a cold cruel person for suggesting any American live without these things. Well I can, because I lived through a hand to mouth existence for years paying off a substantial dept accrued by my exwife and I.

The government promotes poverty by rewarding for continued bad behavior. Benefits increase if you have more children while on government assistance. The government should be saying we will pay you a compensation / reward when the first child is born (which you can't financially support) if you will allow the hospital to sterilize you.
Government promotes poverty when they don't force you to perform public service for when you receive welfare / unemployment benefits. Government discourages employment when getting a low paying job equates to working for almost nothing when you loose your welfare benefits.

While I'm not a proponent of most corporate bailouts, I would rather see their employees working (and paying taxes) as opposed to collecting welfare and unemployment.

Ted

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. Not trying to start an argument but drug addiction (street and prescription drugs, alcohol and tobacco) is a social ill suffered by people at ALL financial levels and treatment should be addressed by an all encompassing medical system. Those people using are simply trying to find escape from their predicament.

Misuse of welfare is indeed a problem BUT not all that need assistance abuse the system. Perhaps better policing or a readjusted means test?
Forced sterilization (birth control) won't sit well with a "certain" segment of the greater population.
Perhaps a guaranteed income, if working, with no loss of benefits as judged by above mentioned means test.

Education at all levels is the solution.

 

[BandB]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. Not trying to start an argument but drug addiction (street and prescription drugs, alcohol and tobacco) is a social ill suffered by people at ALL financial levels and treatment should be addressed by an all encompassing medical system. Those people using are simply trying to find escape from their predicament.

Misuse of welfare is indeed a problem BUT not all that need assistance abuse the system. Perhaps better policing or a readjusted means test?
Forced sterilization (birth control) won't sit well with a "certain" segment of the greater population.
Perhaps a guaranteed income, if working, with no loss of benefits as judged by above mentioned means test.

Education at all levels is the solution.

There are so many issues and none of it is simple. However, the fact remains that we have a great economic divide and a lot of people suffering. There are more "haves" and more "have not's" that ever before. We have up to 15 years and more differences in life expectancy based on what county and state you live in, very much like the differences between poor and rich countries. We have a proliferation of hookworm in an area of Alabama because people don't have septic tanks. We have people dying because they live beside a mountain of coal ash. 3000 counties in the country have higher lead content in their water than Flint, Michigan.

Do a budget for a single mom making $10 an hour. You'll throw up your hands in desperation and then ask what assistance is available for her. Look at the young veterans returning from service and mentally and/or physically incapable of returning to a normal and productive life. There are diagnosed cases of PTSD but for every one there are hundreds of lesser degrees of it. I can't imagine seeing my buddy or brother in combat killed beside me, but I know I would need help dealing with it. Tell a 75 year old he should retire, only to find out his social security is only $1250 per month. Then tell him how to live on that. There is $1.4 trillion of student debt and there are young people who don't feel they'll ever get it paid.

Read this, the UN "Statement on Visit to the US by Professor Philip Alston, United Nations Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights."

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22533

Oh, and don't forget that among those not paying taxes, we have five times as many people in prison as the OECD average. Many of those are extra are for drug possession. Others for minor crimes. We have huge numbers in prison over minor infractions and fines and penalties that just grow.

We have one of the highest levels of inequality. We truly have the 1% and the 50%.

We have people who work 40 hours a week every week and don't pay federal income taxes. They don't pay only because we pay them too little to require paying. They still pay 7.65% on SS and Medicare and sales tax and property tax if they own anything and car registration. They may pay half a days earnings to register and license their car or in Mississippi many times that as they pay annual taxes on the car to register it.

See, I have the same anger over those not paying federal income taxes but my anger is directed at the rest of us, at society, at government, at employers, at education that we have so many people not earning enough to be required to pay federal income taxes.

It's not right. As a society and as a country, we are failing. Go to a medicaid nursing home and see the conditions as elderly are packed in two to a room. Walk into a housing project or poor neighborhood and talk to some residents. Go to Mexico Beach, FL for a week or eastern NC and SC, the areas flooded by Florence, or Puerto Rico. You'll see some wonderful, nice people, hard workers, living in unimaginable conditions and making the best of it. However, it's how their parents lived and grandparents, in poverty. Likely how their children will live as adults if nothing is done.

We hired a young girl from a small town in Mississippi recently. The few wealthy in town go to private school. The poor, over 97% black, go to the public school. 1% of the graduates are deemed ready for college. She felt so inadequate here beside other girls her age so my wife helped her get another high school diploma online with her tutoring. The girl was amazed to find out she's not stupid, actually very smart.

The SC Department of Education recently took over the schools of Williamsburg County. Hemingway High School has a 92% graduation rate but only 12% pass the end of course history exam. Only two of the district's 10 schools are "all clear" on accreditation. The county has a 30% poverty rate and a median household income under $29,000. I wish I thought the state will be able to quickly improve things but even if they had great new programs, there are 12 years of kids already far behind. They stand no chance of recruiting top teachers or administrators and lack the funding to enhance programs. The majority of people living there won't be paying federal income tax.

Like the girl we hired from Mississippi, you talk to nice young people with high school diplomas in some of these areas and realize they have the equivalent of an 8th grade or 9th grade education and any form of college is strictly out of the question, not because they're not smart, but because of their race and where they were born.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. BB. Isn't that basically what I posted? Lack of education at ALL levels IS the problem.

 

[twistedtree]

Greetings,
Mr. BB. Isn't that basically what I posted? Lack of education at ALL levels IS the problem.

I agree it's a core issue. And what I find even more troubling it that being poorly education is not only accepted, but in many ways celebrated in our culture. A lot of people seem to believe that having a good education is a bad thing, not a good thing. It's very odd.

 

[menzies]

Education and health care. What it all seems to come down to.

Why can't our elected leaders see what we, the electorate, see?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. m. "Why can't our elected leaders see what we, the electorate, see?" Perhaps we are electing the wrong "leaders".



Unfortunately, there are no poor folks in politics.

 

[O C Diver]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. Not trying to start an argument but drug addiction (street and prescription drugs, alcohol and tobacco) is a social ill suffered by people at ALL financial levels and treatment should be addressed by an all encompassing medical system. Those people using are simply trying to find escape from their predicament.

Misuse of welfare is indeed a problem BUT not all that need assistance abuse the system. Perhaps better policing or a readjusted means test?
Forced sterilization (birth control) won't sit well with a "certain" segment of the greater population.
Perhaps a guaranteed income, if working, with no loss of benefits as judged by above mentioned means test.

Education at all levels is the solution.

Mr. RT, I need to clarify a few things.

Not implying that social ills are only associated with the poor, but everyone has a choice. There are those who have escaped poverty through a frugal lifestyle and spending money on vocational training to get a better job, but they rarely make news.

If you will reread what I wrote, I wasn't advocating forced sterilization. I was suggesting the government offer a substantial amount of money to a woman willing to give up her future reproductive option. I would think an offer of $20K might be of interest to a woman living in poverty.

Ted

 

[menzies]

I was suggesting the government offer a substantial amount of money to a woman willing to give up her future reproductive option. I would think an offer of $20K might be of interest to a woman living in poverty.

Ted

Ted, let me ask you a question.

Would you consider making the same offer to a woman who was either rich or well off?

 

[O C Diver]

We have one of the highest levels of inequality. We truly have the 1% and the 50%.

So, if we take the wealth of the top 1% and cure all the problems of the bottom 50%, do you think 50 years from now the bottom 50% will be any different than they are now?

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Ted, let me ask you a question.

Would you consider making the same offer to a woman who was either rich or well off?

To be fair, yes. That's because I believe the world is overpopulated by humans.

My view was that the average child born into poverty will likely cost the government over $100,000 by the time they reach 18. I also believe that a woman raising her first child might fair better with an additional $20K or having an equal amount of additional benefits.

Ted

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. Sorry, I misinterpreted. You said "...we will pay you a compensation / reward when the first child is born (which you can't financially support) if you will allow the hospital to sterilize you." The mother is NOT being forced but what happens if she says no? Is she cut off welfare?


You go on to say perhaps a stipend of $20K might be of interest to a woman living in poverty in return for sterilization. So, this woman takes the $20K, gets an education and a job, wants to get married and have kids....no wait...


I understand what you're saying but I really don't think that's a viable, long term solution.


Re: Post #48. Nope. the bottom 50% will be in the same place IF they're only paid off and a goodly percentage of the 1% will leave the country. Train the bottom 50% and in 50 years, nay 5 years I would not be surprised if the numbers dropped to 10%.


Train and educate that single pregnant woman in poverty and support her while she learns and she won't be a long term burden on society.


Regarding welfare or social assistance. I fully agree, people should be required to work for their money OR attend school. Mandatory drug and alcohol testing should be put in place as well. Substance abusers will be treated in a medical facility.

 

[BandB]

Not implying that social ills are only associated with the poor, but everyone has a choice. There are those who have escaped poverty through a frugal lifestyle and spending money on vocational training to get a better job, but they rarely make news.

See....that paragraph shows you really haven't been among those trapped in poverty. Have you ever been to an inner city housing project? Sat and talked to homeless? They can't escape poverty through a frugal lifestyle, they're already as frugal as possible. They can't spend money on training. They have no money to spend.

69% of Americans have less than $1000 in savings according to one survey. Whatever, the real percentage, the bottom 50% don't have savings. If they have an emergency such as health care it goes on a credit card if they have one or they incur huge debt.

As others said, you don't play Robin Hood and take from the rich and give to the poor but you do take from the rich to provide education, health care, child care, to help people our of the cycle of poverty. You don't accept schools like those I mentioned earlier just because they're almost all black and the white kids are in private schools. In Mississippi, over half of all black students attend schools in districts rated D of F. Now, Clinton, MS is a great example of the opposite. But of those black students who attend D or F schools, those districts are 86% black and of those attending F schools, those districts are 95% black. You make changes now and you still have 10-20 years of undereducated.

I believe in certain unalienable rights of all people. Every child in this country should have access to a good education. Now, you want to see taxes come down, they will as you create more taxpayers. Every person living in this country should have access to good healthcare. Others have mentioned repeatedly those two issues. We have a bail system in this country where poor people are kept in jail and wealthy people get to go home. Not only then to they not make any money but we spend tax dollars housing them in jail. Reduce our prison levels to normal and you save enough money to go far. We need to develop more taxpayers and a larger tax base by enabling more people to earn money. We have people in jail at a cost to taxpayers of $80 to $150 per day over what originated as a $50 or $100 ticket. Fail to pay on time, fine added, then warrant and more fines and soon it's enough they'll never pay. Easier to do the time. Courts issue fines all the time that it's not reasonable to expect to be paid.

I never thought this day would come, but I have to applaud Walmart. Their efforts to increase their minimum wages was then followed by Amazon's announced increase (topping Walmart) and Target's plans. Then Walmart's new Education Benefits are very nice. We already had a program but we immediately augmented it with their program. Now if we could only make such a program available for all students regardless of where or if they worked.

 

[cardude01]

From the UN report referenced earlier by BandB.

III. Who are ‘the poor’?
10. I have been struck by the extent to which caricatured narratives about the purported innate differences between rich and poor have been sold to the electorate by some politicians and media, and have been allowed to define the debate. The rich are industrious, entrepreneurial, patriotic, and the drivers of economic success. The poor are wasters, losers, and scammers. As a result, money spent on welfare is money down the drain. To complete the picture we are also told that the poor who want to make it in America can easily do so: they really can achieve the American dream if only they work hard enough.

11. The reality that I have seen, however, is very different. It is a fact that many of the wealthiest citizens do not pay taxes at the rates that others do, hoard much of their wealth off-shore, and often make their profits purely from speculation rather than contributing to the overall wealth of the American community. Who then are the poor? Racist stereotypes are usually not far beneath the surface. The poor are overwhelmingly assumed to be people of color, whether African Americans or Hispanic ‘immigrants’. The reality is that there are 8 million more poor Whites than there are Blacks. Similarly, large numbers of welfare recipients are assumed to be living high on the hog. Some politicians and political appointees with whom I spoke were completely sold on the narrative of such scammers sitting on comfortable sofas, watching color TVs, while surfing on their smart phones, all paid for by welfare. I wonder how many of these politicians have ever visited poor areas, let alone spoken to those who dwell there. There are anecdotes aplenty, but evidence is nowhere to be seen. In every society, there are those who abuse the system, as much in the upper income levels, as in the lower. But the poor people I met from among the 40 million living in poverty were overwhelmingly either persons who had been born into poverty, or those who had been thrust there by circumstances largely beyond their control such as physical or mental disabilities, divorce, family breakdown, illness, old age, unlivable wages, or discrimination in the job market.

12. The face of poverty in America is not only Black, or Hispanic, but also White, Asian, and many other colors. Nor is it confined to a particular age group. Automation and robotization are already throwing many middle-aged workers out of jobs in which they once believed themselves to be secure. In the economy of the twenty-first century, only a tiny percentage of the population is immune from the possibility that they could fall into poverty as a result of bad breaks beyond their own control. The American Dream is rapidly becoming the American Illusion as the US since the US now has the lowest rate of social mobility of any of the rich countries.

 

[Padeen]

I’ve weighed all postions carefully and determined that Ted is correct.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. P. Could you be more specific please. Mr. OC has presented opinions on several issues the majority of which I agree with but he is just a bit "off base", IMO, on some.

 

[Padeen]

Do a budget for a single mom making $10 an hour.

It’s probably more productive to help this mom (and dad) improve their decision making skills. Creating a child is a tremendous responsibility, and one a parent should be prepared for.

You’re not qualified to be a parent if your income stream is $10/hr x Y hours.

 

[Padeen]

Greetings,
Mr. P. Could you be more specific please. Mr. OC has presented opinions on several issues the majority of which I agree with but he is just a bit "off base", IMO, on some.

I concur without qualification RT.

 

[Padeen]

Income Inequality?

Is it getting worse?

A crisis?

Like most political animals, it depends on whose stats you are comfy with.

“Figures don’t lie, but liars do figures”

There is credible research that II is not getting worse, nor is it a crisis:

https://www.cato.org/publications/p...-about-inequality-poverty-redistribution#full

 

[BandB]

It’s probably more productive to help this mom (and dad) improve their decision making skills. Creating a child is a tremendous responsibility, and one a parent should be prepared for.

You’re not qualified to be a parent if your income stream is $10/hr x Y hours.

You say that knowing nothing about that parent and the circumstances. There are a lot of people making less than $10/hr. I know single mom's who were stay at home moms with husbands who earned plenty until the husband was indicted or until he ran away. I know a young single mom who was raped by her mom's boyfriend.

Now let's assume for a second it was an unintended pregnancy. What we've got now is the reality of the single mom who needs education, healthcare, and day care if she's going to increase her earning power.

Nearly 40% of all hourly workers have been making less than $10.10 per hour. Now, hopefully, with the changes happening with some large employers that number will decrease.

 

[Padeen]

BandB: Why not donate your Riva to the IRS so they can redistribute the value to those that need it more than you?

Put your money were your dogma is.

 

[BruceK]

...Nearly 40% of all hourly workers have been making less than $10.10 per hour. Now, hopefully, with the changes happening with some large employers that number will decrease.

This is a US centric discussion,and USA has, to Australia,a different wage structure. We have wage fixing systems and tribunals,and a history of Union involvement in wage "negotiation". The minimum wage here is way more than $10 an hour,around double that,though our $ is less valued to yours.
While it may very well be that wages of $10ph are too low, increasing wages increases cost of production and that increases prices. It can increase inflation, which oddly enough was once seen as bad but is now seen as good, as a pathway to the holy grail (as some, not I,see it) of "growth".
Our wage level is one reason we cannot produce goods competitively. For example we have been quite unable to maintain an automobile manufacturing industry, we must import all our vehicles. Lots to choose from,but none locally made.
I advocate no position,but merely point out one effect of many of rising wages, they do not rise in a vacuum.