Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-18-2020, 10:14 PM   #1
Guru
 
menzies's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,340
A Simple Question About The Pharm Industry.

How many of you think they make too much money now?
__________________
Advertisement

menzies is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 12:35 AM   #2
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 18,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by menzies View Post
How many of you think they make too much money now?
I think they make too much from the US market and from certain drugs and types of drugs. I think they need to be able to recover costs of developing drugs and if there wasn't an incentive, they'd not develop. However, I don't think they should be receiving double, triple, quadruple and more for drugs in the US compared to any other country. If US costs were just equivalent to Canada costs I'd be happier.

I think there are other structural things that need to be addressed. For instance, the involvement of insurers adds a third party in the US and you're talking profit for the pharmaceutical, the insurer and the pharmacy. Also, Medicare is not allowed to negotiate rates.

Also, there's the question of how researched should be financed. Today it's done through government grants, private and charity grants, and selling the product. Perhaps if it was refined the costs of the drugs could be adjusted.
__________________

BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 03:58 AM   #3
TF Site Team
 
Insequent's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Insequent
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 50 Mk I
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I think they make too much from the US market and from certain drugs and types of drugs. I think they need to be able to recover costs of developing drugs and if there wasn't an incentive, they'd not develop. However, I don't think they should be receiving double, triple, quadruple and more for drugs in the US compared to any other country. If US costs were just equivalent to Canada costs I'd be happier.

I think there are other structural things that need to be addressed. For instance, the involvement of insurers adds a third party in the US and you're talking profit for the pharmaceutical, the insurer and the pharmacy. Also, Medicare is not allowed to negotiate rates.

Also, there's the question of how researched should be financed. Today it's done through government grants, private and charity grants, and selling the product. Perhaps if it was refined the costs of the drugs could be adjusted.
All valid perspectives. But if the costs in the USA reduced to the Canada levels, would pharma remain profitable, and be able to stay in business? Yes, its unjust that USA is subsidising other countries costs, but all the health stuff is a difficult thing to get right and few, if any, places have.

The high cost drugs here are subsidised as part of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, but access is limited. When a drug is added to the PBS it is for a very specific condition/situation, and each new patient case has to be approved to qualify for the subsidy. I don't know how good the people are that make those calls, and it has to be a difficult job. My own experience: During cancer treatment my wife's oncologist wanted to prescribe a drug on the PBS scheme. The request was denied on the basis that for her particular cancer the drug would not provide sufficient extension of life. This was not an assessment of her condition at the time. She did not fit the criteria that had been determined and set in stone at the time the drug first went onto the PBS We could not afford to pay the full cost (it could have ended up as 7 figures), so were unable to test the oncologist's opinion that it might save her life. Was he right? Had the evidence for use changed since it was first listed on the PBS? Her cancer was at an advanced stage, perhaps nothing could have saved her. But it was still very hard for us to accept at the time. Oh, and we had the highest level of private health insurance cover at the time, but that made no difference.

Pharma needs to be able make enough money to fund research, and given the very small probability of getting a breakthrough they have to cover the cost of a huge number of failures for that one success. Another issue is the expiry of patents and impact of generics. Somehow the lack of incentives for pharma to continue research in those areas also has to be fixed.

Right now, with covid-19, its a good thing that the world has the amount of pharma research capability that it does. I would hope there is enough scrutiny of the industry to ensure that unreasonable profits do not occur, but do worry about the capacity of some people to exploit gaps. Detailed disclosure and big sticks required? The carrot being reasonable profit - hard to define that too I guess.

I think not a simple question, or a simple answer.
__________________
Brian
Insequent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 07:17 AM   #4
Guru
 
Woodland Hills's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alzero
Vessel Model: Hatteras 63' CPMY
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,215
Yes Pharma would be profitable at Canadian prices. Just not as exorbitantly profitable. Even at European prices..... do you think they are selling at a loss over there?
Woodland Hills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 09:01 AM   #5
Guru
 
menzies's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,340
https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...-us-now-136255
menzies is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 09:16 AM   #6
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,296
Its the entire industry that has huge markups.

Anyone with a TV has seen the add where a lady enters a code in her phone and the price purchase price drops to under $10, from almost $70.

This is because most folks have some sort of medical insurance , which gets "discounts" both from the pill pushers and the hospitals.

With insurance and mediwhaever most hospital bills are hugely discounted .

ALL prices need to be posted , no more $80.00 each aspirin pill billing!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 09:24 AM   #7
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,611
Define "too much money" first.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 10:06 AM   #8
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,239
As already mentioned, research and drug trials cost huge money and normally years and years before they make the first dollar. My exwife works overseeing independent 3 party drug trials. You would be amazed at the number that don't reach desired goals (to work better than the existing drug), and either go back to research or get dropped.

Then there are the drugs that have the substantial investment cost, hit the market as the new wonder drug, only to be surpassed a year later by a competitor's drug. Golden goose turns into a common laying chicken.

There are also drugs developed for very small markets (uncommon to rare diseases). These can have high consumer costs. A drug company is a business, why should it pay all the upfront costs on a drug, that it can't recoup investment and make a profit on, before the drug goes off patent?

One of the reasons that so many great products have been developed in this country is that the patent laws and pricing freedoms motivate people and companies to take chances, and risk capital in pursuit of the next great product. Remove the profit incentives, and there's less innovation.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 10:25 AM   #9
Guru
 
Woodland Hills's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alzero
Vessel Model: Hatteras 63' CPMY
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
Define "too much money" first.
Itís like pornography: we canít define it, but we all know it when we see it.
Woodland Hills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 10:30 AM   #10
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,436
Possibly a look at their balance sheets would be in order for the truly interested.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2020, 10:34 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
City: Tampa, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insequent View Post
I think not a simple question, or a simple answer.
That's the real point here. Anyone who thinks they have the simple answer, only has a simple-minded answer.
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 05:30 AM   #12
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,296
One simple answer is competition , sure patent protection is needed to spur new research , but when an old product like an Eppi pen , goes from a couple of bucks to a couple of hundred ,overnight, . competition (not gov force or fraud ) would soon bring the price down.


Competition is the simple and fairest answer.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 07:45 AM   #13
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
One simple answer is competition , sure patent protection is needed to spur new research , but when an old product like an Eppi pen , goes from a couple of bucks to a couple of hundred ,overnight, . competition (not gov force or fraud ) would soon bring the price down.


Competition is the simple and fairest answer.
We took that approach and now 90+% of our antibiotics are made in China. How's that working out for us now? Tell me in a month when we're out of them.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 08:17 AM   #14
Guru
 
menzies's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,340
I believe those drugs are made in India, with the raw materials sourced from China?
menzies is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 10:19 AM   #15
Guru
 
City: Satsuma FL/Daytona Beach Shores
Country: United States
Vessel Name: No Mo Trawla
Vessel Model: Hurricane SS188
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,252
My GP moved me through 4 different blood pressure meds due to carcinogenic impurities in them from China and India.
__________________
Buffalo Bluff Light 28
Donsan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 02:30 PM   #16
Newbie
 
City: Virginia
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 3
Since my wife is a ex-pharmacist and has some views on this subject I thought I'd interject the perspective of marketing, namely the vast sums of money they spend as an industry. I'll let you guys decide if this seems like too much, just enough, or too little. My opinion is it is WAY too much and the money could be spent more efficiently to help lower the cost of drugs.

From the article:
Of the nearly $30 billion that health companies now spend on medical marketing each year, around 68 percent (or about $20 billion) goes to persuading doctors and other medical professionalsónot consumersóof the benefits of prescription drugs. Thatís according to an in-depth analysis published in JAMA this week. The study broke down exactly how health companies convinced us to spend enormous sums on our care between 1997 and 2016. In that time, health companies went from spending $17.7 billion to $29.9 billion on medical marketing.

Source:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2019...es-to-doctors/
Shenandoah52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 04:51 PM   #17
Guru
 
menzies's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,340
Careful, as there are lies, damn lies and statistics!

Included in that number are all of the education programs - disease state as well as product. A decade ago the line was very blurred between professional education and marketing. Over the last decade this has been cleaned up a ton. While there are still some "iffy" players out there you will find that the professional medical organizations now follow ACCME guideline when it comes to commercial sponsorship of their conferences and other education.
Of course there will always be cynics - especially those who make a living or their name from bring cynical!
menzies is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 05:04 PM   #18
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,239
That's amazing!

But Pharma is a business, not a nonprofit.

Imagine how cheap my next trip to a fast food restaurant
would be without all the advertising, but then I might not eat there. Guess that's what advertising is for.

Pharma is business. Without advertising, you might not buy your Male Enhancement drug from their company. That's the way business and advertising work.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 06:41 PM   #19
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,611
So does Apple make too much money? Many if not all of the same issues noted above.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020, 07:02 PM   #20
Guru
 
menzies's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
So does Apple make too much money? Many if not all of the same issues noted above.
Big difference between life saving, life maintaining products and a commodity.

If people can't afford an iPhone and have go get by with a flip phone or no phone at all, that is very different from getting by with inferior or no drugs due to affordability.
__________________

menzies is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×