Question On Govt Checks

[menzies]

My daughter just raised an interesting point.

So long as you file your tax return by the April deadline you don't have to send off what you may owe until July 15th.

Which means that those that owe can use the stimulus check to pay off their taxes. So will send the money straight back to the government.

I wonder what % of filers earning under 75K owe?

 

[catalinajack]

Don't count on seeing that money before 7/15. The Treasury Dept does not have enough paper stock or printing capacity to issue the number of checks that need to go out. And never mind the extensive programming and system testing (paper or direct deposit) that is required and all with very scarce IRS resources due to years of budget cuts all in the midst of the filing season which has been extended. This will be a mess. Folks will be back to work long before that money is disbursed.

My daughter just raised an interesting point.

So long as you file your tax return by the April deadline you don't have to send off what you may owe until July 15th.

Which means that those that owe can use the stimulus check to pay off their taxes. So will send the money straight back to the government.

I wonder what % of filers earning under 75K owe?

 

[O C Diver]

Don't know the percentage, but a large number of people file on line and use the bank transfer system to send money to the IRS, I do. But then I'm not getting money from the Government, it only goes the other way.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

Got my refund in 3 weeks this year....Not sure why the IRS direct deposit system wouldn't work for people who already filed and received.

My other thought was some sort of transfer to a credit card set up through the CC banks.

 

[FF]

I guess they need more help, only 74,454 Full-time equivalent, 2019

 

[twistedtree]

My daughter just raised an interesting point.

So long as you file your tax return by the April deadline you don't have to send off what you may owe until July 15th.

Which means that those that owe can use the stimulus check to pay off their taxes. So will send the money straight back to the government.

I wonder what % of filers earning under 75K owe?

It's still money that you would have otherwise needed come up with on your own. Her argument is equivalent to saying that you shouldn't both earning money because you will just turn around and spend it.

 

[menzies]

I get that, however if their stimulus impact calculations are based on all of it entering the money flow and multiplying as it get spent around, that amount will not enter the flow.
This is especially true for those still pulling in a check, whether working or still getting paid. It will probably not be spent.

 

[catalinajack]

Ted, with the deepest respect, you and most other folks are wondering the same and with much logic. But, as with many things in life, answers are oftentimes much more complicated. Sure, IRS has the information on anyone who has filed, LAST YEAR, 2018, for folks who used direct deposit which is a large percentage but not all. So, for those who received a check in the mail, now what? Yes, send a check to the last known address. Sound
Sounds simple. It is not.

First, how much does each person get? That is going to be a computation based on 2018 income. Simple? The arithmetic is but the programming is certainly not. We are talking about highly complex, interrelated systems not just a few Excel spreadsheets. After the code is written it must then be tested, also a time-consuming process. I could go into greater detail but your eyes would begin to roll long before you finished reading.

Here is another question I have not seen in the legislation. Will IRS be required to send checks to taxpayers who owe money to the Treasury? That question, by the way, is another complicated programming requirement regardless of whether there will be an offset. If support money will be offset against outstanding liabilities, there will be programming required to account for this. If not, different programming to suppress the offsets. Then there will be many types of notices required. More systems, more programming. Eyes rolling yet.

And all of this is supposed to happen during the filing season during which programming resources every year are TOTALLY dedicated to ensuring that refunds go out for 2019. Where is the IRS supposed to get the resources to do all this new programming? And, the filing season has been extended to 7/15. There is more, lots more, but I think you get the point.

Don't know the percentage, but a large number of people file on line and use the bank transfer system to send money to the IRS, I do. But then I'm not getting money from the Government, it only goes the other way.

Ted

 

[catalinajack]

FF come on. Just so you know, not many years ago that number was as high as 115,000. You really think there are excess resources lolly-gagging about? And, yes, they do need more help. Try calling the help line for help. You'll be on the phone for hours.

I guess they need more help, only 74,454 Full-time equivalent, 2019

 

[O C Diver]

Ted, with the deepest respect, you and most other folks are wondering the same and with much logic. But, as with many things in life, answers are oftentimes much more complicated. Sure, IRS has the information on anyone who has filed, LAST YEAR, 2018, for folks who used direct deposit which is a large percentage but not all. So, for those who received a check in the mail, now what? Yes, send a check to the last known address. Sound
Sounds simple. It is not.

First, how much does each person get? That is going to be a computation based on 2018 income. Simple? The arithmetic is but the programming is certainly not. We are talking about highly complex, interrelated systems not just a few Excel spreadsheets. After the code is written it must then be tested, also a time-consuming process. I could go into greater detail but your eyes would begin to roll long before you finished reading.

Here is another question I have not seen in the legislation. Will IRS be required to send checks to taxpayers who owe money to the Treasury? That question, by the way, is another complicated programming requirement regardless of whether there will be an offset. If support money will be offset against outstanding liabilities, there will be programming required to account for this. If not, different programming to suppress the offsets. Then there will be many types of notices required. More systems, more programming. Eyes rolling yet.

And all of this is supposed to happen during the filing season during which programming resources every year are TOTALLY dedicated to ensuring that refunds go out for 2019. Where is the IRS supposed to get the resources to do all this new programming? And, the filing season has been extended to 7/15. There is more, lots more, but I think you get the point.

I do get what you're saying, however, seems there are a lot of 1 and 2 family income people with kids, who file a joint return where income, number of kids, and contact information are on the first page of the form. Won't work for everyone, but certainly a place to start.

Ted

 

[FF]

The cash payouts need not be more complex than the basic info.

The desire is to flood the country with massive free credit , a few billion extra would be do no harm.

Are the retired included in this latest experiment in Keynsism ? Helicopter Money?

 

[catalinajack]

Ted, the IRS indeed has lots of information from past-filed returns. And, yes, there are many starting points. The problem is with the high complexity of programming that is required to pull information from quite a few mutually exclusive data bases to derive to whom to send checks and determine how much to send. It seems simple to anyone not well-versed in systems design but, I assure you, it is most certainly not. Implementing this law will be a major undertaking for the IRS for which IRS does not have the resources. Outside contractors will do the work but those contractors will have to hire to fill the need which doesn't happen overnight. Here is another challenge. Any new employee, outside contractor or actual Federal employee, who will be given access to secure IRS systems must go through an extensive background check which can, and does, take weeks and sometimes months.

I do get what you're saying, however, seems there are a lot of 1 and 2 family income people with kids, who file a joint return where income, number of kids, and contact information are on the first page of the form. Won't work for everyone, but certainly a place to start.

Ted

 

[catalinajack]

Larry Kudlow, on ABC, live, just 15 minutes ago (Sunday, 3/29, 9:45am Eastern Time), stated that the checks are going out in two weeks. Guess I was wrong. We'll see. And this from the guy who just four weeks or so ago assured the country that 15 cases would soon be zero.

 

[ssobol]

Most people get electronic transfer from the IRS, so the number of checks actually mailed via USPS is a lot smaller than you'd think.

My state income tax is based on the AGI from my Federal tax form. My state still requires that I file my state tax return on the usual date, so the Federal relief on filing really doesn't make any difference to me. If I have to do my Federal return to pay my state tax, I might as well send it in.

 

[BandB]

The IRS has been through similar checks twice before so this isn't reinventing the wheel. Programming fairly simple and far greater percentage getting direct deposit than in the past. Those not required to file, information will be pulled from Social Security.

Now, I see a couple of potential challenges. Using 2018 returns, a lot of people will have changed bank accounts. Others will have changed addresses. I'm not sure how they'll handle those situations.

Prediction. First payments around May 1 and most during the month of May.

 

[catalinajack]

BandB, the programming is not fairly simple. I enjoy all of your posts especially those on the running a business. But, on this one you are just plain incorrect. Your May 1st prediction may indeed become true but IRS will have to move heaven and earth to get it done. By the way, the work will be done by outside contractors. The IRS has long not had staff to do so.

The IRS has been through similar checks twice before so this isn't reinventing the wheel. Programming fairly simple and far greater percentage getting direct deposit than in the past. Those not required to file, information will be pulled from Social Security.

Now, I see a couple of potential challenges. Using 2018 returns, a lot of people will have changed bank accounts. Others will have changed addresses. I'm not sure how they'll handle those situations.

Prediction. First payments around May 1 and most during the month of May.

 

[BandB]

BandB, the programming is not fairly simple. I enjoy all of your posts especially those on the running a business. But, on this one you are just plain incorrect. Your May 1st prediction may indeed become true but IRS will have to move heaven and earth to get it done. By the way, the work will be done by outside contractors. The IRS has long not had staff to do so.

I consider the programming fairly simple and I'll tell you why. It's all reduced to data and formulas. A simple decision tree line of programming. Move heaven and earth? No, just have a focused team. I do see the social security link for those not filing returns being slightly behind as you're just going through the IRS database before going to the Social Security database.

Now, I'm also saying fairly simple for direct deposit. For those receiving checks, just having the check stock necessary will be a challenge and I could see checks lagging two to four weeks behind direct deposit.

Now, just because I think it's fairly simple doesn't mean I necessarily believe they're capable of pulling it off quickly.

 

[catalinajack]

BandB: I thought maybe, after reading a few of my comments, that someone would figure out that I have more than an outsider's perspective. I worked as a systems designer for five year's for the very contractor who is doing this work. Move heaven and earth because, in addition to the programming for this, these folks already are fully engaged in seeing to it that filing season processing does not crash. The data and formulae is the easy stuff, basically arithmetic. The harder part is the writing and testing of the code to elicit the information and intergrating the processing with other systems. For example, code has to be written to suppress offsetting against other outstanding federal debt - tax debt, student loans, delinquent child support. This is not fairly simple by any stretch of imagination. We are not taking about one simple data base but many inter-related data bases which all must talk to each at the same time. I mentioned a few. There are many more.

By the way, for those will get their money by check, IRS does not issue checks. They are issued by the Treasury Dept. Yesterday, Mnuchin said most folks would see their money in three weeks no doubt those who used direct deposit. Of course, folks who have closed accounts since filing their 2018 returns, well, who knows. This is not easy and no doubt there will be many glitches and no doubt the ignorant will pile all the blame on IRS.

I consider the programming fairly simple and I'll tell you why. It's all reduced to data and formulas. A simple decision tree line of programming. Move heaven and earth? No, just have a focused team. I do see the social security link for those not filing returns being slightly behind as you're just going through the IRS database before going to the Social Security database.

Now, I'm also saying fairly simple for direct deposit. For those receiving checks, just having the check stock necessary will be a challenge and I could see checks lagging two to four weeks behind direct deposit.

Now, just because I think it's fairly simple doesn't mean I necessarily believe they're capable of pulling it off quickly.

 

[BandB]

BandB: I thought maybe, after reading a few of my comments, that someone would figure out that I have more than an outsider's perspective. I worked as a systems designer for five year's for the very contractor who is doing this work. Move heaven and earth because, in addition to the programming for this, these folks already are fully engaged in seeing to it that filing season processing does not crash. The data and formulae is the easy stuff, basically arithmetic. The harder part is the writing and testing of the code to elicit the information and intergrating the processing with other systems. For example, code has to be written to suppress offsetting against other outstanding federal debt - tax debt, student loans, delinquent child support. This is not fairly simple by any stretch of imagination. We are not taking about one simple data base but many inter-related data bases which all must talk to each at the same time. I mentioned a few. There are many more.

By the way, for those will get their money by check, IRS does not issue checks. They are issued by the Treasury Dept. Yesterday, Mnuchin said most folks would see their money in three weeks no doubt those who used direct deposit. Of course, folks who have closed accounts since filing their 2018 returns, well, who knows. This is not easy and no doubt there will be many glitches and no doubt the ignorant will pile all the blame on IRS.

I fully understand your background. I also understand IT deeply and the capabilities of the departments that have worked under me as well as consultants. I know the IRS software is a tangled, patched mess. However, while I respect your opinion, I still disagree with it.

 

[menzies]

OK you two.

I award ten points to each of you and declare a draw.

Moving on!

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
I like government Czechs.

This woman is an artist designing the new obverse decoration for the new 500 koruna banknote. Katarina (above) has bee working for the Czech revenue agency since 1893. She hopes to retire and raise chickens on her farm in Pisec.

 

[catalinajack]

Menzies, I already had decided to respond no further. [emoji3]

OK you two.

I award ten points to each of you and declare a draw.

Moving on!

 

[BandB]

Updated information is that direct deposits may be made in the month of April. However, they're saying they'll only mail out 5 million checks a week so may take 20 weeks to mail out all the checks.

 

[catalinajack]

This is old news to me. I was aware of this last week. The reason for the 5 million checks per week is the Treasury just does not have the printing capacity to print more than that each week. If fact, they may not even have enough, right now, paper stock on which to print all of the checks that might need to be issued. A lot of folks are going to be angry. Remember, Mnuchin and Kudlow assured all that in three weeks everybody would see their money. Not gonna happen. This is going to be a colossal mess. For example, for folks who are not required to file and haven't filed, IRS does not have their information on file. No data, no checks, no direct deposit. Now what? Still think this is easy?

Updated information is that direct deposits may be made in the month of April. However, they're saying they'll only mail out 5 million checks a week so may take 20 weeks to mail out all the checks.

 

[menzies]

Menzies, I already had decided to respond no further. [emoji3]

Hmmmm

 

[BandB]

This is old news to me. I was aware of this last week. The reason for the 5 million checks per week is the Treasury just does not have the printing capacity to print more than that each week. If fact, they may not even have enough, right now, paper stock on which to print all of the checks that might need to be issued. A lot of folks are going to be angry. Remember, Mnuchin and Kudlow assured all that in three weeks everybody would see their money. Not gonna happen. This is going to be a colossal mess. For example, for folks who are not required to file and haven't filed, IRS does not have their information on file. No data, no checks, no direct deposit. Now what? Still think this is easy?

Now Mnuchin is ignoring the check issues and saying they're all set up to let everyone provide direct deposit info on line and the 20 weeks is crazy.

This doesn't mean the programming is complicated. Just means printing capability. The administration is still saying no problem though. I think the programming is easy. I think carrying it all out is something I doubt will be done as needs to be.

Social Security records are being used for those not required to file.

As for others who might be missed, last time it was to file a return. This time, if they've not filed and don't receive social security or SSI, I haven't heard their plan. Simplest answer is still to file.

But even today Mnuchin was assuring that it would be quick and doesn't know where that other information is coming from but all fake news. Wonder where he learned that approach.

 

[BandB]

Hmmmm

His new response was appropriate to new information for discussion. I don't see that he and I are arguing as much as discussing what has been said and what might be involved.

 

[backinblue]

My daughter just raised an interesting point.

So long as you file your tax return by the April deadline you don't have to send off what you may owe until July 15th.

Which means that those that owe can use the stimulus check to pay off their taxes. So will send the money straight back to the government.

I wonder what % of filers earning under 75K owe?

You don't have to file in April, you can now wait till July to file

 

[backinblue]

Don't count on seeing that money before 7/15. The Treasury Dept does not have enough paper stock or printing capacity to issue the number of checks that need to go out. And never mind the extensive programming and system testing (paper or direct deposit) that is required and all with very scarce IRS resources due to years of budget cuts all in the midst of the filing season which has been extended. This will be a mess. Folks will be back to work long before that money is disbursed.

Printing and mailing checks is not as hard as you imagine, but regardless, many will be electronic bank transfers, not paper checks.

 

[backinblue]

I get that, however if their stimulus impact calculations are based on all of it entering the money flow and multiplying as it get spent around, that amount will not enter the flow.
This is especially true for those still pulling in a check, whether working or still getting paid. It will probably not be spent.

But it is entering the economy. For instance if you didn't get a stimulus check you would need to come up with the money from somewhere else which presumably would subtract from the money flow.