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That's a good ad for the petrochemical industry who paid for it.
Maybe just relax and enjoy the renewable present. You'll be fine.
I don’t care who payed for it, is it factual.
What is the Tesla roof made from ? It has a life span calculated at 25 years, then is it reused or land filled ? What’s the pay back savings vs cost ?
I’m all in on solar, I installed both a panel on our sailboat and a solar water heater system for our home that payed for itself in several years. These systems had single panels not thousands of panels as in the solar farms.
What is the Tesla roof made from ? It has a life span calculated at 25 years, then is it reused or land filled ? What’s the pay back savings vs cost ?
I’m all in on solar, I installed both a panel on our sailboat and a solar water heater system for our home that payed for itself in several years. These systems had single panels not thousands of panels as in the solar farms.
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Yeah, the world as depicted in the Jetsons ain't gonna happen. Even with a few drones buzzing around there's potential chaos, and I don't mean chaos theory - real chaos.
Yes, folk are developing flying cars. Well, they may take off, but I can't see'em taking on...except in very specific, highly controlled situations...maybe..?
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Please define MMCC for this simple-minded fellow. (and no doubt some others) These bl**dy Drs and their abbreviations...
Therein lies one of the problems. As a business person, I'm not use to investing in things that take "several years" to pay for themselves when thinking "several years" is 7-12 years. I look at less than 3 years. So, to buy into solar, I must be convinced of the non-financial benefit, that it's better for the environment, for the world.
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Brett, how about just looking at the installation of a large PV system, (especially with a new build, like we did) as an investment in comfort, and ability to control one's personal climate, and yet also does contribute to the environment..?
Our power provider pays us about $150 per month for what we put back into the grid over that used from the grid. That's how I justified it, rather than just an ROI issue. Enphase just advised me our contribution to decreasing CO2 was equivalent to 35 trees just for last month, and we've been running our aircon virtually 24/7 because it has been so hot here in Queensland. Because of that, this month's credit was only $131.48 Last month was $184.28.
Ultimately, when batteries become a more realistic cost, we will be able to be grid independent it we wished, although while they are paying us so well, why bother..?
However, if the feed in tariff dropped enough, batteries would become more worthwhile, and effectively would provide our house with an uninterruptible power supply. When you are very computer reliant business-wise that can be good. Works for me.
FF
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"Please define MMCC for this simple-minded fellow. (and no doubt some others)"
"Man Made Climate Change" is the current Gov. science created & financed claim that the couple of percent of climate change that might be traced to mankind is worth billions in extra costs, a lowering of the planets std of living , as well as more power for the Gov. regulators.
"Man Made Climate Change" is the current Gov. science created & financed claim that the couple of percent of climate change that might be traced to mankind is worth billions in extra costs, a lowering of the planets std of living , as well as more power for the Gov. regulators.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. FF. Well, what's the alternative? Unrestrained growth and production with resultant destruction and pollution of the environment? Isn't there enough of a problem with killing the oceans with plastics? Like it or not or believe it or not the source of life on this planet IS the ocean! Think you can depend on industry to police itself?
Personally, I think the kerfuffle about MMCC is a bit of a red herring. As I mentioned, IMO, the REAL menace is fouling and killing the biomass of the waters we depend on. When the oceans die, we die.
Mr. FF. Well, what's the alternative? Unrestrained growth and production with resultant destruction and pollution of the environment? Isn't there enough of a problem with killing the oceans with plastics? Like it or not or believe it or not the source of life on this planet IS the ocean! Think you can depend on industry to police itself?
Personally, I think the kerfuffle about MMCC is a bit of a red herring. As I mentioned, IMO, the REAL menace is fouling and killing the biomass of the waters we depend on. When the oceans die, we die.
Brett, how about just looking at the installation of a large PV system, (especially with a new build, like we did) as an investment in comfort, and ability to control one's personal climate, and yet also does contribute to the environment..?
Our power provider pays us about $150 per month for what we put back into the grid over that used from the grid. That's how I justified it, rather than just an ROI issue. Enphase just advised me our contribution to decreasing CO2 was equivalent to 35 trees just for last month, and we've been running our aircon virtually 24/7 because it has been so hot here in Queensland. Because of that, this month's credit was only $131.48 Last month was $184.28.
Ultimately, when batteries become a more realistic cost, we will be able to be grid independent it we wished, although while they are paying us so well, why bother..?
However, if the feed in tariff dropped enough, batteries would become more worthwhile, and effectively would provide our house with an uninterruptible power supply. When you are very computer reliant business-wise that can be good. Works for me.
Yours being a new build gave you a tremendous advantage as it wasn't all incremental cost. For our home we have several issues. It starts with roofs that are not as conducive to solar as other styles. Second, is hurricane securing it. Then comes a power company whose programs leave a lot to be desired. Still, we're learning and preparing. We're starting with some industrial applications and building from there. Here, every power company has different programs and they're all into solar themselves so competing with you as their customer, trying to sell you, trying to limit you in ways. They've written the rules for the states. While providers here also pay back interconnective excesses, they also bill you connection fees.
Even better: since the movement is lateral and northbound,
Lake Stevens, WA will become one of L.A.'s smaller suburbs!
FF
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"Well, what's the alternative?"
That depends on the progress we make , one example is the use of space to collect solar power and using radio waves to beam it to earth.
Old concept with industrial space launches getting cheaper , who knows?
Another is "bright water" using air bubbles to change waters reflectivity and reflect solar heat back into space.
There are literally hundreds of ideas a few might work, none require killing off half or 3/4 of the planets population.
"Think you can depend on industry to police itself?"
Sure , it just has to be profitable for industry.
Much of the ocean plastic garbage comes from one country CHINA ,one man can make the decision there to clean up the ocean, or at least stop the dumping.
That depends on the progress we make , one example is the use of space to collect solar power and using radio waves to beam it to earth.
Old concept with industrial space launches getting cheaper , who knows?
Another is "bright water" using air bubbles to change waters reflectivity and reflect solar heat back into space.
There are literally hundreds of ideas a few might work, none require killing off half or 3/4 of the planets population.
"Think you can depend on industry to police itself?"
Sure , it just has to be profitable for industry.
Much of the ocean plastic garbage comes from one country CHINA ,one man can make the decision there to clean up the ocean, or at least stop the dumping.
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. FF. China and a lot of the rest of Asia IS the major single source of oceanic plastic pollution BUT it is America and other first world countries plastics that are exported to Asia for "reprocessing".
https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/30/21542109/plastic-waste-united-states-ocean-pollution-study
https://www.statista.com/chart/18229/biggest-exporters-of-plastic-waste-and-scrap/
Out of sight, out of mind. REAL easy to point fingers. Your neighbor has a messy lawn BUT it's your dog that's going over there to crap.
"Sure , it just has to be profitable for industry." EXACTLY my point!!!
There ARE major profits to be had by industry flogging "green" technologies to ameliorate MMCC but little to no profit dealing with cleaning up oceans.
Mr. FF. China and a lot of the rest of Asia IS the major single source of oceanic plastic pollution BUT it is America and other first world countries plastics that are exported to Asia for "reprocessing".
https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/30/21542109/plastic-waste-united-states-ocean-pollution-study
https://www.statista.com/chart/18229/biggest-exporters-of-plastic-waste-and-scrap/
Out of sight, out of mind. REAL easy to point fingers. Your neighbor has a messy lawn BUT it's your dog that's going over there to crap.
"Sure , it just has to be profitable for industry." EXACTLY my point!!!
There ARE major profits to be had by industry flogging "green" technologies to ameliorate MMCC but little to no profit dealing with cleaning up oceans.
Hippocampus
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I dunno. Gone through the saragasso sea multiple times. Don’t think it’s like the pacific. It’s our crap that’s floating there. Islands of plastic. Worse than Maine for prop fouling between that and weed.
Also think the huge masses of saragasso weed that gets bulldozed off Caribbean beaches is a very obvious example of MMCC.
People talk about coral bleaching and sea rise. But as I sit now in New England the changes are obvious. The change in species at the bird feeders. Wet snow clogging the snow blower. The pond not freezing but rarely.
Also think the huge masses of saragasso weed that gets bulldozed off Caribbean beaches is a very obvious example of MMCC.
People talk about coral bleaching and sea rise. But as I sit now in New England the changes are obvious. The change in species at the bird feeders. Wet snow clogging the snow blower. The pond not freezing but rarely.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. (Dr.) H. I'm not saying that MMCC is not a concern. It is, indeed but of much greater concern IMO is the state of our oceans.
http://https://www.reference.com/science/produces-world-s-oxygen-b62edacb2bd59362
https://eos.org/research-spotlights/worlds-biggest-oxygen-producers-living-in-swirling-ocean-waters
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/ocean-oxygen.html
People can move and adapt to changing climate and weather patterns (it will be VERY difficult and expensive BUT doable) but moot without OXYGEN.
One of the worst, IMO, planet saving "solutions" in my recent memory is CFL's (compact fluorescent lights). Sure. They used less energy thus reducing emissions from coal fired generating plants but allowed TONS of mercury (Hg) to pollute our water tables at dumps. Granted the amount of polluting Hg from the lamps is/was less than that released by burning coal but the lesser of the two evils is STILL evil.
Mr. (Dr.) H. I'm not saying that MMCC is not a concern. It is, indeed but of much greater concern IMO is the state of our oceans.
http://https://www.reference.com/science/produces-world-s-oxygen-b62edacb2bd59362
https://eos.org/research-spotlights/worlds-biggest-oxygen-producers-living-in-swirling-ocean-waters
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/ocean-oxygen.html
People can move and adapt to changing climate and weather patterns (it will be VERY difficult and expensive BUT doable) but moot without OXYGEN.
One of the worst, IMO, planet saving "solutions" in my recent memory is CFL's (compact fluorescent lights). Sure. They used less energy thus reducing emissions from coal fired generating plants but allowed TONS of mercury (Hg) to pollute our water tables at dumps. Granted the amount of polluting Hg from the lamps is/was less than that released by burning coal but the lesser of the two evils is STILL evil.
Hippocampus
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RT look at it as the same thing. Oceans are the largest biomass, the largest thermal mass, and the largest driver of weather and climate. Kill that biomass accelerate MMCC. Kill that biomass release huge CO2 stores. Kill the plankton kill major CO2 capture and destroy the cycling.
Kill the oceans kill us
Btw you can move, have O2, but still need to eat and drink. Humans only can flourish in a fairly limited temperature range. The developed nations are developed because they are in the temperate zone and have adequate water supply.
Kill the oceans kill us
Btw you can move, have O2, but still need to eat and drink. Humans only can flourish in a fairly limited temperature range. The developed nations are developed because they are in the temperate zone and have adequate water supply.
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. (Dr.) H. YES they are the same thing, more or less, BUT ocean degradation is a problem that is here and now. It's a proven and not based on "what if's" postulated by climate modeling.
The ONLY problem I have with MMCC is the actual extent to which man is contributing to this change. One can find a plethora of studies, ALL based on sound scientific data that can be interpreted to show entirely different degrees of CC and entirely different outcomes. I'm sure some of the discrepancies are as a result of various industrial and political agendas but that's another topic.
I'm surprised the overpopulation crowd hasn't spoken up yet with the "too many people on board" argument. Given your observation that increasing hostile living environments coupled with shrinking areas of arable land may be our future, a few worldwide famines OR a few more pandemics should put an end to that "problem".
Yup. No O2...no life (for us mammals, in any case).
Mr. (Dr.) H. YES they are the same thing, more or less, BUT ocean degradation is a problem that is here and now. It's a proven and not based on "what if's" postulated by climate modeling.
The ONLY problem I have with MMCC is the actual extent to which man is contributing to this change. One can find a plethora of studies, ALL based on sound scientific data that can be interpreted to show entirely different degrees of CC and entirely different outcomes. I'm sure some of the discrepancies are as a result of various industrial and political agendas but that's another topic.
I'm surprised the overpopulation crowd hasn't spoken up yet with the "too many people on board" argument. Given your observation that increasing hostile living environments coupled with shrinking areas of arable land may be our future, a few worldwide famines OR a few more pandemics should put an end to that "problem".
Yup. No O2...no life (for us mammals, in any case).
PJHoffnet
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The last thing I EVER want to see in my lifetime is flying cars. Unless these vehicles are under a 'fool proof' automated traffic control system that is directly linked (making them flying automated transports - i.e. human only puts in destination) you'll have near constant shrapnel falling from the sky in urban areas. A significant number of people can't drive in 2D - and now you want to throw in the Z axis. They don't make helmets large enough for this future.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. X. Well, you still have pandemics, droughts and famine to look forward to. You might also possibly toss in meteors, massive earthquakes, increasing volcanism, nuclear war and/or aliens into the mix if you're so inclined...
As far as throwing stuff away. Yup. That's part of the problem now. Unfortunately, the means AND the mindset to practice the 3 R's (reduce, reuse, recycle) is not within our grasp.
For any solution to the majority of the problems, it will take a global reset to change minds (not likely).
Mr. X. Well, you still have pandemics, droughts and famine to look forward to. You might also possibly toss in meteors, massive earthquakes, increasing volcanism, nuclear war and/or aliens into the mix if you're so inclined...
As far as throwing stuff away. Yup. That's part of the problem now. Unfortunately, the means AND the mindset to practice the 3 R's (reduce, reuse, recycle) is not within our grasp.
For any solution to the majority of the problems, it will take a global reset to change minds (not likely).
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SteveK
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#23 is here now and should be listed #1
#39 When all of the above come true, TF forum will no longer exist.
California Dreamer
#39 When all of the above come true, TF forum will no longer exist.
California Dreamer
Hippocampus
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Simple physics. Look at % of CO2 and other gasses in the atmosphere from human activity. Look at resultant effects. Judge to what degree they cause change.
See the early Intergovernmental reports (especially 1 through 4) showing relationships and predictions. Then look at the fine tuning as more information became available and better modeling occurred. Pretty compelling.
Don’t think TF will disappear due to MMCC. Recreational maritime industry will evolve. Think economics is a much greater threat. Increasingly the burden of owning and operating even a modest boat rises exponentially. I started very young on a very modest income but still had many opportunities including ocean travel and races. My kids and their spouses even with great jobs and both working can’t afford the time and money to keep anything beyond trailer craft. That’s the real threat. As we age out there’s no one to replace us. Income inequality will kill the majority of boating, skiing or even going to a baseball or football game in person.
See the early Intergovernmental reports (especially 1 through 4) showing relationships and predictions. Then look at the fine tuning as more information became available and better modeling occurred. Pretty compelling.
Don’t think TF will disappear due to MMCC. Recreational maritime industry will evolve. Think economics is a much greater threat. Increasingly the burden of owning and operating even a modest boat rises exponentially. I started very young on a very modest income but still had many opportunities including ocean travel and races. My kids and their spouses even with great jobs and both working can’t afford the time and money to keep anything beyond trailer craft. That’s the real threat. As we age out there’s no one to replace us. Income inequality will kill the majority of boating, skiing or even going to a baseball or football game in person.
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FF
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"Think of 8 billion people, defecating daily (if you're lucky) all using toasters and throwing away stuff...yep, too many."
Your dreams of death to much of the worlds population may have been heard,
EBOLA is back loose in Africa again.
And the Texas wind farms are useless , locked with ice in this latest winter storm.
Your dreams of death to much of the worlds population may have been heard,
EBOLA is back loose in Africa again.
And the Texas wind farms are useless , locked with ice in this latest winter storm.
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Hippocampus
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Due to the shift of the polar vortex from a burst of heated air coming up under it.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Ta-da!!! Flying cars... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ls-100mph-altitudes-10-000ft-cleared-FAA.html
Ta-da!!! Flying cars... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ls-100mph-altitudes-10-000ft-cleared-FAA.html
Exactly. Even, now, there are not enough raw materials in the world, for all seven billion people, to live the way we do now in developed first world countries. That's not going to get better as things run out.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. G9. "...not enough raw materials...". Well, sorta "exactly". We're living in a throw away society. As I mentioned in my post (#51), the 3 R's would go a LONG way IMO to ease the sourcing and consumption of limited resources. Again, as I mentioned, global reset of our way of thinking.
I can see a time, perhaps in the fairly near future where garbage dumps will be mined for "lost" resources, primarily metals, I'm guessing.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/landfill-mining-recycling-eurelco/
IF done in an ecologically sound manner it might be cost effective in some cases.
Mr. G9. "...not enough raw materials...". Well, sorta "exactly". We're living in a throw away society. As I mentioned in my post (#51), the 3 R's would go a LONG way IMO to ease the sourcing and consumption of limited resources. Again, as I mentioned, global reset of our way of thinking.
I can see a time, perhaps in the fairly near future where garbage dumps will be mined for "lost" resources, primarily metals, I'm guessing.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/landfill-mining-recycling-eurelco/
IF done in an ecologically sound manner it might be cost effective in some cases.
Well, none of us like to think too much about the fact that we take way more than our fair share of the world's resources. And, I understand why. I'm guilty, too, and I don't either.
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