Gulf Stream slowdown

[RT Firefly]

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/c...-overturning-oscillation-weakest-in-millenium

 

[Yahoo 1]

Bonjour

Interesting indeed.
“ Without the warm North Atlantic Drift, the UK and other places in Europe would be as cold as Canada, at the same latitude. For example, without this steady stream of warmth the British Isles winters are estimated to be more than 5 °C cooler, bringing the average December temperature in London to about 2°C. ”

https://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/North-Atlantic-Drift-Gulf-Stream.htm

 

[O C Diver]

That's truly amazing that they know exactly what the gulfstream current speeds were 1,000 to 1,600 years ago.

Ted

 

[oscar]

That's truly amazing that they know exactly what the gulfstream current speeds were 1,000 to 1,600 years ago.

Ted

Yeah, science is all BS.......

 

[oscar]

Bonjour

Interesting indeed.
“ Without the warm North Atlantic Drift, the UK and other places in Europe would be as cold as Canada, at the same latitude.

Very few people are aware that New York is at the same latitude as Madrid. Many years of aviating to Europe the weather was the same, but the daylight differences over the seasons was striking. Light at 4am in Oslo and 70 degrees outside.......

 

[Yahoo 1]

Very few people are aware that New York is at the same latitude as Madrid. Many years of aviating to Europe the weather was the same, but the daylight differences over the seasons was striking. Light at 4am in Oslo and 70 degrees outside.......

You are right, very few people are aware of that. Same latitude as well as Naples South of Italy.

 

[kthoennes]

Yeah, and Sioux Falls, South Dakota and French Riviera/Monaco are the same latitude too. I don't think Prince Albert has to scrape the ice off his windshield though.

 

[Yahoo 1]

Yeah, and Sioux Falls, South Dakota and French Riviera/Monaco are the same latitude too. I don't think Prince Albert has to scrape the ice off his windshield though.

Indeed !

 

[BruceK]

Yeah, and Sioux Falls, South Dakota and French Riviera/Monaco are the same latitude too. I don't think Prince Albert has to scrape the ice off his windshield though.

A "Prince Albert" does not attach to a windscreen.

 

[O C Diver]

Yeah, science is all BS.......

I wouldn't say that. This just appears as red meat being tossed to the base. When did science become the new religion where no one dares to question the pronouncements?

Ted

 

[boathealer]

I wouldn't say that. This just appears as red meat being tossed to the base. When did science become the new religion where no one dares to question the pronouncements?

Ted

Um, you know exactly when/how that got started. It is shameful.

If you do not agree with every last government billion-dollar cost adder, you are automatically a science denier and a domestic terrorist.

 

[DCDC]

I visited Waterford on the south tip of Ireland several times and was surprised to see cabbage palms. Not too far from Newfoundland but equipped with Gulfstream central heating.

 

[socalrider]

I wouldn't say that. This just appears as red meat being tossed to the base. When did science become the new religion where no one dares to question the pronouncements?

Ted

And of course your objection to this research is based on your own scientific study of the gulf stream rather than, say, "red meat that's being tossed out to the base"?

You're not "questioning the science", you're rejecting it out of hand because you don't like the conclusion and have been trained to believe that scientists are lying to you as part of some massive and imaginary conspiracy.

 

[Swa]

OMG its “The Day After Tomorrow”

 

[Swa]

There are many other researchers reconstructions that disagree with these conclusions and don’t show any significant decline over the last 150 years at all. Disaster scenarios might make for a good headline, but we’d be better off leaving the climate drama to Hollywood.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Funny how a simple post about a publication is turned in a thread about pro vs con science.
And most of people critic about science are benefiting from it every day without even noticing this.

L

 

[BruceK]

Odd weather things happen. This spring/summer/autumn a La Nina has affected the east coast of Australia,drought quenching rain,full dams, lower temperatures. But on the west coast, there are high temps and fires. Last year, much of the east coast was dry and on fire, in high temperatures. La Nina is balanced by El Nino somewhere else, ? the west coast of USA.
Maybe the gulf stream just needs a big propeller at point of origin to speed it up. Powered by a coal fired electricity plant?

 

[FF]

"When did science become the new religion where no one dares to question the pronouncements?"

When science became political and climate change became a religion ,,,,"Settled Science".

 

[Ski in NC]

Questioning scientific theories used to be healthy and welcomed.

Now, if certain topics are questioned and debated, in certain circles one is labeled a "denier".

I had this happen to me when I simply questioned the accuracy of models used to forecast climate change. The climate is a very complex system with lots of variables and lots of processes that are not well understood. The analogy I used is it is similar to modeling an economy with all the variables there. I was in no way promoting that climate change was not happening, just questioning about model accuracy.

In that group I was basically shouted down and labeled a "denier".

Not a healthy situation for science.

 

[O C Diver]

And of course your objection to this research is based on your own scientific study of the gulf stream rather than, say, "red meat that's being tossed out to the base"?

You're not "questioning the science", you're rejecting it out of hand because you don't like the conclusion and have been trained to believe that scientists are lying to you as part of some massive and imaginary conspiracy.

Yes, actually I'm questioning the science. I have run numerous diving charters to the western part of the gulfstream in Maryland, North Carolina, and Florida.

From my experience the gulfstream stream varies greatly. We dive shipwrecks as deep as 300' where the decompression is done in the gulfstream. Sometimes the current screams at over 2 knots. Other times it's under 1/2 knot. Sometimes we find the warm blue water at 60' to the surface, other times it may be only the top 15'. Most years the gulfstream can be found as close as 50 miles off of Maryland. Occasionally the gulfstream tracks much further offshore. This is evidenced by the pelagic fish that are usually caught off Maryland (tuna and marlin) being all but absent. Instead they are much more prolific in Bermuda.

When diving the shipwrecks off of Cape Hatteras to Morehead city, North Carolina, we expect to see blue gulfstream water. There will be summers when the Northerly gulfstream is pushed offshore by upwellings of the Labrador current with it's Southerly current and cool green water.

Anyone who has dove or boated between Florida and the Bahamas will tell you that the gulfstream changes it's velocity and depth of warm blue water.

Do you think hurricanes and super storms have any impact on the gulfstream?

So with all the variables that I have witnessed over the last 40 years, when scientists tell us they know with absolute certainty (isn't that what science is, knowing with absolute certainty) what the gulfstream velocity was 1,000 to 1,600 years ago, I laugh.

Ted

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. "...(isn't that what science is, knowing with absolute certainty)..." Absolutely NOT! I've never heard any reputable scientist state that their findings were absolute. A LAW, as it were. 99.99% certainty, perhaps BUT there is always that little bit of the unknown that is admitted to. I've read some results that say "Aha! This proves my theory", but it's still a THEORY.



Research findings are published in peer reviewed journals and read by fellow researchers who may be able to use those findings in support of their own research or dispute said findings based on their own research. Cold fusion and poly water are two "discoveries" that were initially thought to be scientific breakthroughs but later debunked as a direct result of peer review.



Climatic conditions can be determined by ocean sediment sampling, ice core and soil sampling, tree ring analysis and any number of methods so it's not unrealistic to postulate what the Gulf Stream (major climate influence in certain parts of the world) was doing 1000 to 1600 years ago.



My initial post was simply an interest piece. One small spec of information that might fit in somewhere in the greater scheme of things. One paper is NOT a game changer.

 

[ktdtx]

I was basically shouted down

There is little discussion tolerated any more much less questioning the validity of the methodology or conclusions.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Yes, actually I'm questioning the science. I have run numerous diving charters to the western part of the gulfstream in Maryland, North Carolina, and Florida.

From my experience the gulfstream stream varies greatly. We dive shipwrecks as deep as 300' where the decompression is done in the gulfstream. Sometimes the current screams at over 2 knots. Other times it's under 1/2 knot. Sometimes we find the warm blue water at 60' to the surface, other times it may be only the top 15'. Most years the gulfstream can be found as close as 50 miles off of Maryland. Occasionally the gulfstream tracks much further offshore. This is evidenced by the pelagic fish that are usually caught off Maryland (tuna and marlin) being all but absent. Instead they are much more prolific in Bermuda.

When diving the shipwrecks off of Cape Hatteras to Morehead city, North Carolina, we expect to see blue gulfstream water. There will be summers when the Northerly gulfstream is pushed offshore by upwellings of the Labrador current with it's Southerly current and cool green water.

Anyone who has dove or boated between Florida and the Bahamas will tell you that the gulfstream changes it's velocity and depth of warm blue water.

Do you think hurricanes and super storms have any impact on the gulfstream?

So with all the variables that I have witnessed over the last 40 years, when scientists tell us they know with absolute certainty (isn't that what science is, knowing with absolute certainty) what the gulfstream velocity was 1,000 to 1,600 years ago, I laugh.

Ted

Ted what you are describing is local variation while what is discussed in the article is global variation, not the same.
Is it possible to know exactly stream strength in a specific place, no. Is it possible to infer global stream strength during a certain period, yes.

Paleo climatology is a real science field and not just some noise to make the buzz. Obviously not based on measurement but based on indirect data observation like ice sample, sediment samples or even vegetation.

L

 

[O C Diver]

Ted what you are describing is local variation while what is discussed in the article is global variation, not the same.
Is it possible to know exactly stream strength in a specific place, no. Is it possible to infer global stream strength during a certain period, yes.

Paleo climatology is a real science field and not just some noise to make the buzz. Obviously not based on measurement but based on indirect data observation like ice sample, sediment samples or even vegetation.

L

Since gathering of the currents and volume data didn't start till 2004 (according to the article), how do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt what the volume, flow rate, width, depth, and temperature of the gulfstream was 20 years ago, 200 years ago, or 1600 years ago? Keep in mind that an increased temperature with less flow or vice versa could probably yield similar results. Sorry, don't see the scientific checks on this one.

BTW, if the ocean temperature is heating up, don't you want the current to slow down to maintain the same temperatures in areas impacted by the gulfstream?

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Climatic conditions can be determined by ocean sediment sampling, ice core and soil sampling, tree ring analysis and any number of methods so it's not unrealistic to postulate what the Gulf Stream (major climate influence in certain parts of the world) was doing 1000 to 1600 years ago.

Greetings Mr. RT,

Postulate, that's an interesting word. Some how I don't see the extremists viewing this as anything but settled science. Wonder if the producers of this study view this phenomenon and cause as settled science or would care to grade the probability of them being correct?

Ted

 

[Lou_tribal]

Since gathering of the currents and volume data didn't start till 2004 (according to the article), how do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt what the volume, flow rate, width, depth, and temperature of the gulfstream was 20 years ago, 200 years ago, or 1600 years ago? Keep in mind that an increased temperature with less flow or vice versa could probably yield similar results. Sorry, don't see the scientific checks on this one.

BTW, if the ocean temperature is heating up, don't you want the current to slow down to maintain the same temperatures in areas impacted by the gulfstream?

Ted

Like I mentioned paleo climatology is based on indirect measure meaning different sources of data that are the result and evidence of what happened like for example analysis of tiny bubbles in ice samples that give an hint about atmosphere composition at a specific age , sediment analysis that can contain specific minerals, animal/vegetal residue that can give an hint about climate at that place at a specific age (if you find a piece of a particular specie you know that this specie was living there at that time so you can infer what was the climate too) etc etc.

May sources of data can give clue about what happened in past ages even if we were not there to make measurement at that time, either on earth or ocean floor. Ocean and atmosphere are tightly entangled so many observation of things above and below can give insight of what happened.

The goal is not to have an exact picture of what happened in a particular year but in a particular period of time.

Also ocean circulation is more complex than just ocean temperature and driven by many things including water temp and salinity all along the chain. Break one and thee is impact without any possible doubt. Currently melting glacier are pouring gigantic amount of fresh water in places where salinity plays a key role so the impact is expected and was expected for years now.

L

 

[FWT]

Funny how a simple post about a publication is turned in a thread about pro vs con science.


L

There is a lot of junk published, where we laugh privately and say to ourselves "no one could possibly be foolish enough to believe THAT."

But ignoring it has gotten us to the bad place where we are today. The backlash is that many more now feel they should call out junk when seen, in the vain hope it doesn't take root.

 

[Swa]

Science isnt about the truth. Its ideas are based on data from experiments. I know this as I use to watch myth busters I also recall the 70s global cooling and Al Gore's 10 year "true planetary emergency" Now cow farts contributes to climate change. Since there are more humans on Earth than cows and they smell awful could we all just stop doing that. It might help speed up the gulfstream

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. " Some how I don't see the extremists viewing this as anything but settled science." Agreed. Conclusions based on myopic observations. I attempted to clarify MY opinion of the results in my last paragraph (post #21).
I don't think the authors think of their research as settled in any way. I think this was more of a Hmmm....moment as opposed to an AHA! moment.

 

[Giggitoni]

I wouldn't say that. This just appears as red meat being tossed to the base. When did science become the new religion where no one dares to question the pronouncements?

Ted

If traditional (non-political) science had this attitude a few hundred years ago, our earth would still be flat!