catalinajack
Guru
Sometimes, just because, especially with the Coasties doing safety checks.
Coast Guard boarding: what ID?
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jleonard
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Yes, it was visible. Was it more than 500 yards away? No idea, 500 yards is a long way off and difficult to estimate at least it is for me.
I thought I had plenty of room to safely pass in front, but apparently not.
It was no big deal, we got to see the sub pretty close up.
I've also been outside of New London/Thames River area and have seen multiple boats "on plane " to get close to a submarine because there were no CG or Navy boats creating the protective zone.
That didn't last long as they came out in a hurry and chased boats away.
i know the thread is about coast guard boarding, but does anyone know if in washington state do local officers have the right to board at any time just like the coast guard does?
if the vessel is your home does it change anything?
not that i would deny leos from doing what they need to do, but would like to know my rights.
if the vessel is your home does it change anything?
not that i would deny leos from doing what they need to do, but would like to know my rights.
psneeld
Guru
Even if a liveaboard, you can not stop a USCG boarding.
As to locals and Washington State LEOs...often the only ones that can are the ones that can enforce fishing/hunting regs...because they can have access to refrigerators and freezers and coolers. Others often go by jurisdiction unless state law prohibits safety inspections like the USCG has jurisdiction for.
As to locals and Washington State LEOs...often the only ones that can are the ones that can enforce fishing/hunting regs...because they can have access to refrigerators and freezers and coolers. Others often go by jurisdiction unless state law prohibits safety inspections like the USCG has jurisdiction for.
Portage_Bay
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Don't forget border partol. I've seem them working as far south as Des Moines
PAllen529
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ID
My fairly educated assumption is that using your DL with the state of issue and DL number they are quickly able to pull up your record and determine if you have multiple offense history (eg. Drug running, BUI/DUI, human trafficking and the like) as well as any open warrants or other pertinent information.
My fairly educated assumption is that using your DL with the state of issue and DL number they are quickly able to pull up your record and determine if you have multiple offense history (eg. Drug running, BUI/DUI, human trafficking and the like) as well as any open warrants or other pertinent information.
True for Federal, particularly USCG (actually the 4th Amendment does apply but CG warrantless inspections have been held to be an exception). However, it may not be true for every state. State laws and regulations may in fact limit when and where a state LEO may board and for what purpose. One would have to be familiar with the differing US state laws. For example, in Virginia there are some limits on when the Marine Police can stop and board and for what purposes. https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title29.1/chapter7/section29.1-745/
Here is the rule for non-residents operating a boat in VA waters (assuming a vessel not registered in VA)
If you are operating a boat registered in Virginia, you must comply with Virginia’s boating safety education requirement. If you are operating a boat registered in another state, but temporarily using the waters of Virginia for a period of 90 days or less, you must meet the applicable boating safety education requirements of your state.
I'm not exactly sure about being in international waters, but I doubt any State Law Enforcement has jurisdiction. Again, I don't know these Laws, but the USCG may have the right to ID in International waters just as the can search your vessel.
USCG may board and exercise authority (i.e. enforce US federal law) over any US flagged vessel (so any recreational vessel documented by the CG OR registered in a US state) anywhere in the world. However, recognizing provisions of international law and custom the CG normally would not do so in the territorial waters of another country without that country's permission.
CaptGary
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I was boarded years ago in Connecticut. It was in the evening after anchoring out for dinner behind Flat Hammock near Fishers Island NY. There was some drinking going on (I abstained as I was operating the boat), but everyone was a responsible adult and not inebriated. I had my wife and three other couples on board. They asked everyone for their drivers licenses and proceeded to radio each name (phonetically) over their radio to the CG Station so they could run checks on everyone! I asked them if they would prefer my Captains License (even though it wasn't a Charter) and they said no. All they wanted was a drivers license. I don't know what would have happened if someone didn't have a license or ID on them and I also don't know what authority they had to run background checks on EVERYONE on the boat. I suspect it may have been a training exercise as the "officers" looked like kids! They were very professional however and we had more than the required safety gear on board. We did offer them cookies as they were preparing to leave the boat, but they graciously declined. Overall a curious, but not troublesome experience.
ProMaritime
Senior Member
Whatever you do don't show them your MMC or 6-Pack license if you have one. I'm told that the Coasties can give anyone (licensed or not) they board in US waters or on the high seas if a US flagged vessel and give them a Rules of the Road test on the spot.
I am told they are much more likely to be tougher on USCG license holders than on the average boating Joe.
I am told they are much more likely to be tougher on USCG license holders than on the average boating Joe.
ProMaritime
Senior Member
I guess LEO means "Law Enforcement Officer' or local water cop. They have been told by me and others that without probable cause they have no authority to board a USCG documented vessel.
If a water cop sees you drinking and driving your boat, smoking dope, if that still illegal anywhere or beating your wife, yes those are probable causes. The USCG can board any vessel in US waters with or without probably cause.
If a water cop sees you drinking and driving your boat, smoking dope, if that still illegal anywhere or beating your wife, yes those are probable causes. The USCG can board any vessel in US waters with or without probably cause.
No authority to give a navigation rules test during a CG boarding. There is no requirement to recite the rules just follow them in actual practice. For CG licensed the requirement is to pass the test. Now, if the reason for the boarding is a witnessed violation of the regulations, the boarding officer might ask if you understood the rule and how you were in violation. Much like the police asking if you knew you blew through that stop sign. It is possible that if one holds a CG license there may be less willingness to let a violation go with a warning because of an expectation a licensed mariner should really know and follow the rules. However, that would be something an individual CG boarding officer might do, it's not in any regulations.
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The history of this is all pretty interesting. One of the first laws passed by the 1st US congress was to establish the Revenue Cutter Service which was given the power to board any vessel to check if import duty had been paid on cargo. Import duties were the only source of revenue for the new Federal government as the income tax wouldn’t arrive for over 100 years.. Almost all imports to the US came by sea so Congress cared a lot about this revenue.
Congress did not give the Revenue Cutter Service authority to do safety checks. It never would have occurred to them. The life jacket hadn’t been invented. Navigation lights didn’t exist beyond an oil light . Nor fire extinguishers beyond a bucket of water.
When the Revenue Cutter Service was merged into the new CG, they retained this unique power to board vessels without probable cause. But they also interpreted this power to include safety check and a host of other things.
Ashore, a police officer can not stop you for a “ safety check” of your car unless he observes something amiss - such as the famous “broken taillight”.
Many state water Leo’s claim that they are working with the CG so have in some way been deputized and also don’t need probable cause to stop a boat.
Every once in a while there is a court suit about this but so far none have reached the Supreme Court. The fourth amendment issues are especially interesting if the stopped boat is inland far from a border so could not be avoiding import duty.
But to the OP’s question, the CG has unique powers beyond a normal LEO. Quoting the 4th amendment to a boarding officer will not impress him.
I’ve always found the CG very professional and not looking to be difficult. I have been asked for an ID in three hoardings. I am confident that they would be happy with either a passport or a drivers license. I also don’t believe they are normally running any sort of check of your record. They have a form they have to fill out for any boarding and it has spaces for the names, ages and addresses of the people aboard.
Congress did not give the Revenue Cutter Service authority to do safety checks. It never would have occurred to them. The life jacket hadn’t been invented. Navigation lights didn’t exist beyond an oil light . Nor fire extinguishers beyond a bucket of water.
When the Revenue Cutter Service was merged into the new CG, they retained this unique power to board vessels without probable cause. But they also interpreted this power to include safety check and a host of other things.
Ashore, a police officer can not stop you for a “ safety check” of your car unless he observes something amiss - such as the famous “broken taillight”.
Many state water Leo’s claim that they are working with the CG so have in some way been deputized and also don’t need probable cause to stop a boat.
Every once in a while there is a court suit about this but so far none have reached the Supreme Court. The fourth amendment issues are especially interesting if the stopped boat is inland far from a border so could not be avoiding import duty.
But to the OP’s question, the CG has unique powers beyond a normal LEO. Quoting the 4th amendment to a boarding officer will not impress him.
I’ve always found the CG very professional and not looking to be difficult. I have been asked for an ID in three hoardings. I am confident that they would be happy with either a passport or a drivers license. I also don’t believe they are normally running any sort of check of your record. They have a form they have to fill out for any boarding and it has spaces for the names, ages and addresses of the people aboard.
jlombardo
Veteran Member
I believe in the USA you have to have a boater safety course card showing that you passed. In NJ any motor vehicle violation is applied to all of your driving license, car, truck, boat, plane.
I, respectfully, suggest that you read the posts before your post, as your statement is not fully correct.
In the Delmarva area, the requirements for boater cards are:
DE - all boaters born after 1/1/78
MD - all boaters born after 7/1/72
VA - all boaters regardless of age
Your NJ requirements are kinda unique (although it might apply in some other states) in that you do have a boating license, an endorsement on your New Jersey Driver’s License or ID card that allows you to operate a vessel on non-tidal waters.
Jim
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Request forclarification
Okay everyone, I think it's pretty clearly established that the United States Coast Guard has the authority to pretty much board anyone, pretty much anywhere, for any reason.
Next item of business. Please, if you are responding to a post, please either quote that post, or reference what post you are responding to, or your post is pretty much meaningless!
Third, If you want to relate an experience where you were boarded, please tell us BY WHOM, and WHERE you were boarded. Ex. State USCG, or Virginia Fish and Game, or Local Dog Catcher, as it has a bearing on what is done, and how it is done. To further that example, please state LOCATION, such as 3 miles off Florida Coast, or the ditch behind my house, because that as well may have a bearing on your post.
Many of you have been clear and concise, stating the above information, but several of the posts have been pretty obscure, and as such pretty much a waste of time!
Thanks for understanding.
Okay everyone, I think it's pretty clearly established that the United States Coast Guard has the authority to pretty much board anyone, pretty much anywhere, for any reason.
Next item of business. Please, if you are responding to a post, please either quote that post, or reference what post you are responding to, or your post is pretty much meaningless!
Third, If you want to relate an experience where you were boarded, please tell us BY WHOM, and WHERE you were boarded. Ex. State USCG, or Virginia Fish and Game, or Local Dog Catcher, as it has a bearing on what is done, and how it is done. To further that example, please state LOCATION, such as 3 miles off Florida Coast, or the ditch behind my house, because that as well may have a bearing on your post.
Many of you have been clear and concise, stating the above information, but several of the posts have been pretty obscure, and as such pretty much a waste of time!
Thanks for understanding.
ProMaritime
Senior Member
I standby what I stated:
1. Water Cops do not have authority to board a US Coast Guard Documented Vessel without probable cause that a crime or boating violation has occurred or is occurring. If state boating statutes or regulations are being violated that is PROBABLE CAUSE. If a boat is state registered and the state statutes provide for boarding by water cops fine, but they can't board a USCG documented vessel just for sh--ss and grins. Some of them think they can.
2. The USCG can and will board any vessel documented or state registered, for any reason without probable cause in the waters of the US.
3. When the states started to require a state boating license some tried to get the Coast Guard to help them enforce the license requirement. The Coast Guard declined saying they already have enough real work to do.
1. Water Cops do not have authority to board a US Coast Guard Documented Vessel without probable cause that a crime or boating violation has occurred or is occurring. If state boating statutes or regulations are being violated that is PROBABLE CAUSE. If a boat is state registered and the state statutes provide for boarding by water cops fine, but they can't board a USCG documented vessel just for sh--ss and grins. Some of them think they can.
2. The USCG can and will board any vessel documented or state registered, for any reason without probable cause in the waters of the US.
3. When the states started to require a state boating license some tried to get the Coast Guard to help them enforce the license requirement. The Coast Guard declined saying they already have enough real work to do.
So there's a great segment in The West Wing when White House Counsel Oliver Babish ("OB") is interviewing Press Secretary CJ Cregg ("CJ"), that goes something like this:
OB: "CJ, do you know what time it is?"
CJ: "Yes, it's half past ten."
OB: "You need to stop doing that."
CJ: "Doing what?"
OB: "Giving more answer than what was asked. Let's try this again. CJ, do you know what time it is?"
CJ: "Yes"
If they don't ask for everyone's ID, I'm not giving it. (If they do ask for everyone's ID, I'm asking for their justification.)
psneeld
Guru
A documented vessel has no special protection from state or local law enforcement.
Their only limitation is any state or local laws or pilicies that prohibit them from boardings with specific language as to why.
Probable cause is a major one but different states vary on it and exactly what is needed. That is true of both state registered and documented vessels.
The USCG doesnt enforce the state boating certification (don't know of any state boating "licensing") because they have no jurisdiction over it, not because they are busy.
Their only limitation is any state or local laws or pilicies that prohibit them from boardings with specific language as to why.
Probable cause is a major one but different states vary on it and exactly what is needed. That is true of both state registered and documented vessels.
The USCG doesnt enforce the state boating certification (don't know of any state boating "licensing") because they have no jurisdiction over it, not because they are busy.
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jlombardo
Veteran Member
Hi JLD,
I was speaking in general, but if you want facts, your conclusion falls a bit short.
Here is s more comprehensive list of requirements for the USA.
Alabama - In general, anyone 12 years old or older who operates a vessel on state waters.
Alaska - No requirement.
American Samoa - PWC operators 18 and under.
Arizona - Only volunteer boating safety education instructors for the agency.
Arkansas - Anyone born on or after January 1, 1986.
California - As of January 1, 2021, California law requires all boaters 40 years of age or younger to carry the California Boater Card. All boaters regardless of age are required to obtain the card by 2025.
Colorado - As of Jan. 1, 1998, anyone operating motorboats -- any vessel propelled by machinery, including personal watercraft B on Colorado waters must be at least 16 years old. Teens 14 and 15 years old can operate a motorboat if they first complete a state approved boating safety course.
Connecticut - All residents or owners of real property or anyone wishing to boat more than 60 days a year.
Delaware - Any person born on or after January 1, 1978.
District of Columbia - Anyone operating a vessel on District of Columbia waterways is required to have a Boating Safety Certificate. The Boating Safety Certificate is issued to individuals who successfully complete the Boating Safety course.
Florida - A person who was born on or after January 1, 1988, must have completed a boater education course approved by the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) or passed an approved equivalency exam to operate a vessel powered by a motor of 10 horsepower or greater (including PWCs).
Georgia - Age 12 to 15 to operate certain vessels on their own.
Guam - No requirement.
Hawaii - All operators of PWCs.
Idaho - People renting a PWC, boat operators convicted of OUI, repeat offenders of boating laws.
Illinois - Persons at least 12 years old and less than 18 years old, if they wish to operate a motorboat by themselves.
Indiana - All vessel operators are required to possess a valid driver's license with exception of 15 year olds who have taken and passed a boater education course and possesses an Indiana Identification card.
Iowa - 12 through 17 year olds who operate a motorboat over 10 h.p. or a PWC.
Kansas - Anyone born on or after January 1, 1989 and under 21 years of age regardless of date of birth.
Kentucky - Safe Boating Certification is mandatory for children from 12 through 17 years old.
Louisiana - Under the age of 16.
Maine - 16 and 17 year olds who will operate a Personal Watercraft (PWC).
Maryland - Anyone born on or after July 1, 1972 who is operating a motorized vessel on MD waters must have a valid certificate of boating safety education.
Massachusetts - Any person of at least 12 years of age and less than 16 years of age, operating a motorboat without adult supervision. PWC users 16 and 17 years of age. (PWCs cannot be operated by youth less than 16 years of age).
Michigan - Those less than 12 years of age: May operate a boat powered by a motor of no more than 6 horsepower (hp) legally without restrictions. May operate a boat powered by a motor of more than 6 hp but no more than 35 hp legally only if they are directly supervised on board by a person at least 16 years of age. May not operate a boat powered by a motor of more than 35 hp legally under any conditions. Those 12 to 15 years of age: May operate a boat powered by a motor of no more than 6 hp legally without restrictions. May operate a boat powered by a motor of more than 6 hp legally only if they: Have passed a boating safety course approved by the Department of Natural Resources and have on board their boating safety certificate or ... Are accompanied on board by a person at least 16 years of age.
Minnesota - Ages 12 - 17 to operate a motorboat over 25 hp.
Mississippi - Persons born after June 30, 1980.
Missouri - Any person born after January 1, 1984.
Montana - Youth 13 and 14 years of age must either complete a boating education course or be accompanied by an adult in order to operate a motorboat or PWC with a motor greater than 10 horsepower.
Nebraska - All motorboat operators 14 to 18.
Nevada - Persons born on or after January 1, 1983 will be required to complete an approved boater education course. This applies only to those operating a vessel with a motor larger than 15 hp on Nevada's interstate waters.
New Hampshire - Everyone 16 years of age or older operating a vessel over 25 horsepower.
New Jersey - All power vessel operators, regardless of DOB.
New Mexico - Those born on or after January 1, 1989.
New York - Motorboats - Any individuals born on or after 5/1/96 are now required to successfully complete an approved course in boater education in order to operate a motorboat. Approved courses include those offered by NYS Parks, the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary or the U.S. Power Squadron. Individuals less than 10 years of age may not take this course of instruction. Personal Watercraft - Operators may not operate a Personal Watercraft (JetSki, SeaDoo, etc.) unless they are at least 14 years of age and hold a boater safety certificate issued by State Parks, the USCG Auxiliary or the US Power Squadron for having completed a an 8-hour classroom based course of instruction. A person without a safety certificate may operate a PWC when accompanied by someone over 18 years of age who is the holder of a boater safety certificate. For the purposes of this section, "accompanied" shall mean upon the same PWC.
North Carolina - PWC operators between 14 and 16 years of age if they want to operate on their own .
North Dakota - No person of twelve through fifteen years of age may operate a motorboat (includes personal watercraft, i.e. Jet skis, etc.) propelled by over a ten horsepower motor unless the operator is accompanied by a person eighteen years of age or older or the operator has taken and passed a boating course approved by the Department.
N Mariana Islands All
Ohio - Anyone born on or after January 1, 1982 who operates a powerboat grater than 10 horsepower.
Oklahoma - All persons from 12 to less than 16 years of age.
Oregon - Boaters 12 and older operating a motorboat greater than 10 horsepower.
Pennsylvania - Operators born on or after January 1, 1982 to operate motorboats greater than 25 horsepower and all operators of PWC.
Puerto Rico - Anyone born after July 1, 1972.
Rhode Island - All PWC operators and anyone born after January 1, 1986 operating a vessel powered by an engine of ten (10) or more horsepower.
South Carolina - Persons younger than 16 years of age that operate a boat powered by 15 horsepower engine or greater by themselves.
South Dakota - No requirement
Tennessee - TN resident born after January 1, 1989 must pass a proctored exam.
Texas - Operators between ages 13-17 years.
Utah - Personal Watercraft operators 12 through 17 years old.
Vermont - Any person born on or after January 1, 1974.
Virginia - Beginning July 1, 2009 compliance with boating safety education will be phased in according to age category.
Virgin Islands - No requirement.
Washington - Operators of motorboats with 15 horsepower or greater, must be 12 years of age or older. Is being phased in beginning January 2008 starting with 12 to 20 year olds and increasing age each year until fully implemented in 2014.
West Virginia - Anyone born after December 31, 1986.
Wisconsin - Anyone born on or after January 1, 1989 and who is at least 16 years old.
Wyoming - No requirement.
Soruce: https://americanboating.org/boateducation.asp
John
John,
What I have listed are the DE/MD/VA requirements for residents of those states. I don't know why americanboating.org notes the VA requirements will be phased in, as the Virginia DWR website notes, "All motorboat operators, regardless of age, shall meet the requirements by July 1, 2016."
In addition, your home state of NJ requires a boaters card for all waters AND an endorsement on your New Jersey Driver’s License or ID card that allows you to operate a vessel on non-tidal waters.
Jim
What I have listed are the DE/MD/VA requirements for residents of those states. I don't know why americanboating.org notes the VA requirements will be phased in, as the Virginia DWR website notes, "All motorboat operators, regardless of age, shall meet the requirements by July 1, 2016."
In addition, your home state of NJ requires a boaters card for all waters AND an endorsement on your New Jersey Driver’s License or ID card that allows you to operate a vessel on non-tidal waters.
Jim
BobHaze
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Regarding the constitutionality of them asking for ID, the difference between a state official (LEO or otherwise) and a USCG official making the request/demand is that USCG Petty Officers and commissioned officers by law are Customs officials, and the navigable waters of the US, other than inland lakes, are part of the border of the US. When I was in the USCG in the 70's, when we started doing a lot more boardings for drug interdiction we were challenged frequently by indignant boaters asking us under what authority we were searching their boat without a warrant, and the answer is that we were acting under our Customs Officer authority, where no warrant is required. Maybe it's because I spent 22 years in the USCG, but personally I don't have a problem providing ID when politely requested.
friz
Senior Member
It seems very strange to me that in the USA, one is required to have a photo ID to operate a boat, but a photo ID is not required to vote in National elections.
I have been boarded three times and asked to provide ID all three times. Show them what you have. If they don't like it, they will have to deal with it.
Very, Very, Very strange.
friz
Senior Member
Apparently you have been well conditioned. To me, it remains an unwarranted intrusion into one's privacy regardless of the convoluted "Customs Officer" explanation. I still find it onerous.
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Who told you that? I ran the Public Integrity Division for the Attorney General in our state, and we worked voter fraud all the time, and got a lot of convictions. Some pretty egregious with government officials even helping.
I'm always amazed at the people who don't know that happens. I've had people in my state tell me it never happens, despite me being the person in charge of investigating and prosecuting voter fraud for three years of my life.
But, as far as the Coast Guard, I don't mind showing them my ID. One of their jobs is supposed to be enforcing our immigration laws and before you can check and see if someone is coming in illegally, you have to know who the hell he is. I support that.
On that basis, I imagine they would be more than happy to get a passport when asking for ID.
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kthoennes
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Heck, once in a while my wife is asked to show ID to order a drink in a restaurant. She's a long way past 21 and sometimes I think they're just asking to flatter her, but that's fine with me and she does look a lot younger than her age. If we need to show ID's -- which as a practical matter usually means a driver's license -- to order a martini, I'm not going to get worked up if law enforcement or the CG asks for one. I'm no sheep for submission to government and New Hampshire's license plate motto is still my favorite, but to me, life is way too short to get worked up about flashing a DL.
Seven cases since 2015 doesn’t seem excessive. Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank.
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=MS
Mississippi has the most restrictive voting laws in the nation, a relic of Jim Crow laws. Even to vote by absentee ballot requires a witness and for it to be notarized, a standard that would stop me from voting due to the sheer difficulty of it. To find people that “violated” these restrictions and without easy public transportation to get to distant places is deliberate.
There are in statistics ade Type I and type II errors ( false negative and false positive). To point to one fraud case and argue it’s a common issue and tighten restrictions severely - with Mississippi being the most severe - has the defect of practically denying those that aren’t fraudulent but can’t afford the inconvenience of voting. I’m absentee but wouldn’t get a notarized witness.
Our criminal system was built on the premise of “beyond a reasonable doubt,” not “more likely than not” as in our civil cases, as we would rather have one guilty person evade conviction than convict someone innocent. The same framework should apply in voting to be consistent with our democratic ideals, especially when there is no fraud besides a handful.
Happy to have this conversation offline if you want to private message me and we can speak. I would appreciate your perspective. And I did study this in law school too. Out of curiosity, given the known facts of Mark Meadows registering and voting from an address he never lived at (or visited), would you prosecute? Seems to be a clear cut case; but obviously a handful of these don’t affect a statewide election.
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