Are you using a Bridle with your anchoring setup?

[rslifkin]

That's why I like my single over the pulpit roller...I can let it go , feed out chain and attach another if I have to.

If it's that horrible and I have multiple snubbers or a bridle out and it gets that bad, I would just cut it loose and rerig.

But that's why I like a hitch tied to the chain over a hook . If I let my cheapo snubber go big deal, but when I retrieve as conditions warrant, I just take it in and untie it like normal. I wouldn't use a snubber as long as my boat, so prop fouling is unlikely.

That's basically how I do it as well. My standard snubbers are 30 feet, so unless I run over the chain, they won't reach the props. Pictures below show my setup in use. Basically, feed out chain, attach snubber, feed out more chain while paying out snubber by hand (both going over the roller / through the pulpit slot). At desired scope, cleat off snubber, apply chafe protection. Let out a big more chain, then cleat off chain.

In my case, I've only got 90 feet of chain on board, so this setup only gets used in shallow water where I'm either on all chain, or don't have enough nylon out to provide stretch.

 

[Nomad Willy]

B&B,
Not the only way for sure.
I think the best use of chain is to hold down the end of the shank for setting. Once set extra catenary helps but re weight it’s a price I don’t like paying.
I’ve never had a problem w holding. Setting? Very much so.

Re rslifkin’s setup I like the Cleated off chain. And his wide range of options.

 

[Simi 60]

I use plenty of scope and a snubber and oversized Manson Supreme every time as that's what is at my bow all the time..it just might be that snubbers would be upsized or doubled if I was expecting heavy weather.

I just disagree that if I know its going to be a placid night, I don't have to do extra work that is claimed to not exist.

But like the oversized anchor that you use thats not required 95% of the time why not simply rig with the big snubber all the time?

No extra work required then is there and always in a state of preparedness

 

[rslifkin]

Re rslifkin’s setup I like the Cleated off chain. And his wide range of options.

The post and cleated chain was somewhat of a necessity in the design. Without making it a trip hazard on the deck, I couldn't get the windlass back far enough to fit a chain stopper. Plus, I would have had trouble making it work with the height of the chain between the shank and the windlass when the anchor is retrieved into the roller.

 

[Okydowky]

Me too. With the same results.

Dido, a little pricey! But so quiet swinging on the hook and zzzzzzzzzz ?

 

[psneeld]

But like the oversized anchor that you use thats not required 95% of the time why not simply rig with the big snubber all the time?

No extra work required then is there and always in a state of preparedness

In the very shallow water I often anchor in, and no real concern about higher winds, I prefer a short, small diameter snubber to ease the tidal current surges that are often stronger than wind gusts I encounter.

The oversized anchor lives there so it handles everything. My small snubber works 95% of the time and is easy to tie on. If I expect more, I just grab a dockline a few feet away.

I get your point...and it's normally a good one for most people....no argument from me....just I have a different routine for me.

 

[rslifkin]

But like the oversized anchor that you use thats not required 95% of the time why not simply rig with the big snubber all the time?

No extra work required then is there and always in a state of preparedness

The big snubber has to be longer to get enough stretch. No problem in deep water or with sustained wind, but in shallow water, if you don't need the heavier snubber for the conditions at hand, it may be preferable to use a smaller / shorter one to reduce dragging the snubber on the bottom when the rode is fairly slack.

 

[jclays]

I usually anchor in 45to 100feet of water. Nylon portion of road to cleat.

 

[Hippocampus]

View the main purpose of a snubber is to take all stresses off the windlass, roller and sprit. Think everything else is secondary. Want snubber(s) to go directly to overbuilt cleats/backing plates. Have seen lesser quality boats be ruin by inadequate construction in this key area. Always use two. Always allow sufficient length to decrease shock loads. Always do it the same. Don’t want to think about this when I go to bed. Anchor in 15-175’. Doesn’t matter snubber set up is the same. Use Mantus hook to two shackles to two chafe protected eyes to two lines to two bow cleats. Use all chain which is let off until bottom of loop is in the water.
Doing everything the same always means wife and I know what’s going on if we need to move in the middle of the night. Means it’s one less thing to worry about regardless of weather.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I have 300+ feet of chain. Too much of a good thing, in my opinion. I'm planning to replace half of that with 8 plait. That will leave me sometimes with the deck termination chain and sometimes line, depending on anchoring depth. My issue is that the boat horses around a lot starting about 10 knots, so I rigged a bridle last time out. Prior to putting on the bridle, I was travelling through 25 to 30 degrees per the compass. After the bridle (with connection point dropped down about 10 feet below surface), I was going through 15 to 20 degrees. But the period was actually reduced by several seconds and the overall motion seemed considerably less noticeable. Mission accomplished, but more improvement might be possible.

I still need some more experimentation. For instance, how does dropping the connection point deeper (or shallower) effect the motion? The angle of the bridle to the rode is likely what slows down the horsing about. The shallower the connection, the more angle. Does that pull the bow of the boat around faster and thereby reduce horsing? Would it be at the expense of any "shock absorption" afforded by the bridle?

The next thing I would like to try is a "sea anchor" attached at the bridle to rode connection. If the angle of the bridle has the effect of keeping the bow from horsing around, what could a small sea anchor do at that point? It might work like a ring in a bull's nose. A little tug right at the start and the whole thing stops wandering off.

For my attachment of the bridle, I used a soft shackle, but not threaded through the links as was mentioned. If the soft shackle is big enough, it is easily made into a prusik knot with the attachment loop and knot free of the chain. The same shackle with a prusik can be used to attach a bridle to chain or line (when I have line installed).

I didn't make the soft shackle out of Dyneema line. Seems like overkill for what I was doing. Using regular line can produce quick and cheap shackles for this project (fastening method number 4, shown here, in this video can bind and become difficult to remove. I know). 5/16 nylon line can produce a soft shackle with a 5,000# breaking strength. Should that happened, my chain lock would take the strain. And then I would hear it rattle.

 

[backinblue]

To Marco. I agree, 300 ft of chain is a lot of weight to be hauling around. If you are planning to go with a chain/nylon rode, why replace only half of it? I don't know where you normally anchor, but if it were me, I would change to something like 50' of chain and the rest nylon. That way you are most likely always using all the chain and some nylon and probably never need to deal with a snubber at all. Yes, I know, chain helps with anchor holding and I don't want to start that discussion again here. My point is that if you are willing to make the change, the rule of thumb is approx a boat's length of chain and the rest nylon. Rely on your anchor to do what it should. Save some weight and not worry about the snubber issue. (full disclosure, my boat has 30' chain and 220' 8-plait) These are all wins in my book, though I will never try to convince someone that an all-chain rode is not the ultimate solution. Like everything else in boating, pros and cons for every compromise.

 

[rgano]

I will repeat an earlier comment on another thread about what happened to my plait-to-chain interface. I have and prefer all chain rode, but before I got rid of the plait, it resided under 180 feet of 1/4" G4 chain (yes, small but tough stuff for my small boat). I never anchor in over 20 feet of water and always for just part of a day before heading home. The plait never made it out of the locker. My normal method of wash down is to flip open the locker hatch at home and hose the contents down letting the water drain over the side through the locker's drain. Despite leaving the locker open (covered slip so no rain worries), the 120 feet of plait probably stayed a bit damp. Removing the chain recently revealed rust spots on the plait and a VERY rust final link of chain at the interface where the wet plait was in constant contact. Now, with all chain, I think things will dry out better. Be careful of the interface, y'all.

 

[PacificBlue]

We have had 33’ - 46’ SF out of SoCal since the 70s. Always used all chain rode and an oversized hi-strength Danforth later went to oversized Fortess. Bent a few of each. Never used a snubber or tied off to a cleat, just the windlass. Anchored from Ensenada to Santa Barbara, had 50 - 60 mph winds in the worst of it.

Never had an issue with the windlass not holding. Slept well at night.

 

[Hippocampus]

Some people will drop a weight off their unused roller and give it enough rode so it just drags on the bottom. Others use a steady sail.
I’m lazy and will take a line independent of my snubbers and attach it to the chain. Then use it to adjust bow angle relative to the wave train. That line is cleated amidships. The “right” angle stops the hunting but isn’t overdone otherwise you get a forward surge or even some rolling.

 

[markpierce]

Have all-chain rode. Chain does not stretch and catenary only works so far in current and wind. Common for me is current stretching the chain straight. So, that's when I use nylon rope to reduce shock. Although here everything is calm: The rig also increases scope.

 

[Nomad Willy]

We have had 33’ - 46’ SF out of SoCal since the 70s. Always used all chain rode and an oversized hi-strength Danforth later went to oversized Fortess. Bent a few of each. Never used a snubber or tied off to a cleat, just the windlass. Anchored from Ensenada to Santa Barbara, had 50 - 60 mph winds in the worst of it.

Never had an issue with the windlass not holding. Slept well at night.

Oh yes I’ve thought about that many times. And I’ll bet many on this forum that have said the’d never attach their anchor rode to the windlass have attached it to cleats that have far less holding power than their windlass. It’s not a matter if you attach to this or that. It’s a question of how well it’s attached to the deck and how well the deck is attached to the boat.

Most fishing boats use a reel type winch and about 2/3rd's of them have a big cleat on top for the anchor rode. But there are bolts (4 to 10 or so) that hold down the base of the winch over about 4 Sq. feet of deck area. Cleats only engage about 1/2 of a square foot of deck.

So I think the old saying "NEVER make your anchor rode fast to the windlass" is more or less an old trawler man's tale. Been waiting to say that for over 10 yrs.

By the way the winch in my pic is available for $150.
Bought it from an old fisherman in Klawock.

 

[Group9]

Always a snubber
Never know what'll happen at 2am and don't want to he expensive windlass taking that load

We used to use a bridle, and eventually we decided that a single line snubber worked just as well for us.

But, yes, most windlasses are not designed to take those kind of shock loads that can be put on them while at anchor. I'm always amazed to see someone using their brake on their windless to hold them in place while anchored.

Their was a youtube video a couple of years ago of a sailboat that washed ashore when a storm blew up at anchor, and the owners, were complaining that the windless just came out of the deck, and it wasn't their fault.

 

[rslifkin]

Most windlasses specify not to use it to hold the anchor loads. It's not a concern for ripping it out of the deck (won't happen if it's properly mounted), but for either slipping the clutch, or if it's set tight enough, shock loads abusing the gears or bending the shaft.

Mind you, some windlasses are actually meant to hold the boat at anchor. The original windlass on my boat was an old Powerwinch (model 612 I think) rope only windlass. It was an underpowered, slow, noisy thing, but a cool design. Under the housing was a tiny little motor (with only a 40 amp breaker), then multiple shafts with gears on them. The final output gear had a locking pawl that was engaged by a spring and disengaged by a solenoid. So to operate the windlass, you pushed a button that turned on power to the motor controls and disengaged the locking pawl, then when done, you allowed it to re-lock. That locking pawl was intended to hold the boat, unlike most other windlasses.

 

[Hippocampus]

Wish I took pictures. Have seen the front of boats ripped off by their ground tackle gear. Sprit, roller, the whole shebang. Have seen cleats ripped out as well.

There’s good design and construction and not so much. A proper cleat has appropriate backing plates. Both the cleat and installation are made to take maximum repetitive loading well within limits of construction. A few washers on the backside a cored deck doesn’t cut it.

Very few windlass pawls, cams and gears are designed to take those loads. Reality is they fail. Recreational vessels rarely have commercial grade windlasses of that nature.

Very few boats have proper Sampson posts so you’re dependent on bow cleats. For most decent boats they’re stronger than the cams/gears in the windlass.

 

[catalinajack]

Getting lucky doing the unwise is not evidence of good practice. It just means you got lucky. Play in traffic long enough and one ends up in the hospital sooner or later.

We have had 33’ - 46’ SF out of SoCal since the 70s. Always used all chain rode and an oversized hi-strength Danforth later went to oversized Fortess. Bent a few of each. Never used a snubber or tied off to a cleat, just the windlass. Anchored from Ensenada to Santa Barbara, had 50 - 60 mph winds in the worst of it.

Never had an issue with the windlass not holding. Slept well at night.

 

[Group9]

Wish I took pictures. Have seen the front of boats ripped off by their ground tackle gear. Sprit, roller, the whole shebang. Have seen cleats ripped out as well.

There’s good design and construction and not so much. A proper cleat has appropriate backing plates. Both the cleat and installation are made to take maximum repetitive loading well within limits of construction. A few washers on the backside a cored deck doesn’t cut it.

Very few windlass pawls, cams and gears are designed to take those loads. Reality is they fail. Recreational vessels rarely have commercial grade windlasses of that nature.

Very few boats have proper Sampson posts so you’re dependent on bow cleats. For most decent boats they’re stronger than the cams/gears in the windlass.

I wish I still had it. There was a picture of a Catalina 42, the kind of sailboat that we used to have, that had been tied to a dock somewhere up north at high tide that was left hanging off the side of the dock by the lines tied to it's fore and aft cleats. It was a good ten or fifteen feet in the air.

Some wit had posted it on the Catalina 42 owner's forum, with the caption, "Catalina 42 cleats and backing plates passed their field test yesterday."

 

[backinblue]

Slightly off-topic but walking the docks this past week since my boat just launched for the summer, I noticed a couple cases where galvanized steel and stainless are both used as part of an anchor rode.

1) A fairly new 34' Back Cove (so I assume it was delivered this way) with a shiny stainless anchor connected directly to galvanized chain.

2) An older sailboat with galvanized anchor and chain, but a stainless swivel added between them. I assume this was a recent change but corrosion was clearly evident at the connection points.

As far as I know, directly connecting galvanized steel and stainless is not a good idea. I understand the attraction of a new stainless anchor, but I don't know that everyone considers the entire rode system when they do this. Stainless chain is almost prohibitively expensive. However, before thinking about a new stainless anchor and/or swivel, think also about how it will connect to your rode. I learned the hard way myself, but ended up with a solution I am very happy with. Unlike most of you, I have the perfect anchor system. (Joking!!!)




backinblue:

I'm about to make a similar "mistake", but will monitor to see how it goes. Mantus M-1 anchor (galvanized) and Mantus anchor swivel (316L, SS), so it will be a SS swivel linked to a galvanized chain at one end, and a galvanized anchor at the other . . .

Pretty much everyone out there who is using SS swivels are doing that (linking SS to galvanized), and I've not heard of any issues . . . . are the issues present and we're just not hearing about it? Or are their actually no issues for whatever reason?

 

[backinblue]

Slightly off-topic but walking the docks this past week since my boat just launched for the summer, I noticed a couple cases where galvanized steel and stainless are both used as part of an anchor rode.

1) A fairly new 34' Back Cove (so I assume it was delivered this way) with a shiny stainless anchor connected directly to galvanized chain.

2) An older sailboat with galvanized anchor and chain, but a stainless swivel added between them. I assume this was a recent change but corrosion was clearly evident at the connection points.

As far as I know, directly connecting galvanized steel and stainless is not a good idea. I understand the attraction of a new stainless anchor, but I don't know that everyone considers the entire rode system when they do this. Stainless chain is almost prohibitively expensive. However, before thinking about a new stainless anchor and/or swivel, think also about how it will connect to your rode. I learned the hard way myself, but ended up with a solution I am very happy with. Unlike most of you, I have the perfect anchor system. (Joking!!!)




backinblue:

I'm about to make a similar "mistake", but will monitor to see how it goes. Mantus M-1 anchor (galvanized) and Mantus anchor swivel (316L, SS), so it will be a SS swivel linked to a galvanized chain at one end, and a galvanized anchor at the other . . .

Pretty much everyone out there who is using SS swivels are doing that (linking SS to galvanized), and I've not heard of any issues . . . . are the issues present and we're just not hearing about it? Or are their actually no issues for whatever reason?

You are correct that the majority of shackles are stainless and most chain is galvanized. I suspect that it is not a major cause of failure or it would be more known. However, the corrosion of the different metals is well-known and a potential for failure over time. If you keep a close eye on it you can deal with it as needed, perhaps never? I'm not an expert, but I did observe actual corrosion as stated above. I will get a picture soon if I can.

Here's a decent article on the subject. I'm sure you can do more research if you like:

Metals Used in Anchoring Tackle

Since my rode does not have a long length of chain and the rope was looking a little old anyway, I replaced the rode with 30' of 316L HT domestic stainless chain and 220' of 8-plait nylon. Now my anchor, swivel, and chain are all stainless. Was worth it for me after first investing $$$ in the new anchor and swivel and later getting a new rode to go with it.

 

[Seevee]

Question:


What's the best knot to use for tying the bridle or just a snubber line to a rope rode? Only one I know is the rolling hitch.



My new to me boat has chain and rope rode (always had all chain in my past life). I suppose I could simply tie off the rode to the Sampson post, but when would I want the bridle and what knot.

 

[Hippocampus]

Just curious. Why are people still using swivels? Everything I’ve read and all the experienced sailors/cruisers I know say they’re a bad idea. Especially if you’re in areas where you can expect resets and veer.

 

[rslifkin]

Question:


What's the best knot to use for tying the bridle or just a snubber line to a rope rode? Only one I know is the rolling hitch.



My new to me boat has chain and rope rode (always had all chain in my past life). I suppose I could simply tie off the rode to the Sampson post, but when would I want the bridle and what knot.

A rolling hitch or a Prusik hitch would be my 2 top choices. But in general, with a mixed rode, I just cleat off the rode and apply chafe protection (one of the long velcro chafe sleeves) to the rode where it goes over the roller. I only add a snubber or make a bridle if the boat isn't sitting well without it (and it's been determined to help), or in really bad weather to unload the pulpit / roller.

Just curious. Why are people still using swivels? Everything I’ve read and all the experienced sailors/cruisers I know say they’re a bad idea. Especially if you’re in areas where you can expect resets and veer.

In general, I do hear lots of advice to skip the swivel. And I don't personally use one. But occasionally you find a setup (particularly with a mixed rode where the chain may re-load in a different orientation) where having a swivel makes it far easier to get the anchor into the roller correctly. I often end up poking mine with a boat hook to help it orient. Mine will flip upright (a bit violently) if it's sideways, but if it's upside-down, it needs a little help, otherwise it just hits the roller and stops. I thought about adding a swivel, but I don't want a stainless one, and a galvanized eye swivel big enough to have a higher WLL than my chain hangs up in the pulpit slot.

 

[backinblue]

Just curious. Why are people still using swivels? Everything I’ve read and all the experienced sailors/cruisers I know say they’re a bad idea. Especially if you’re in areas where you can expect resets and veer.

Just my opinion of course, I think modern swivel designs have overcome a lot of the side-loading issues. Some people like swivels and some don't. I've yet to see consensus that "everyone" thinks one way or the other. I use a swivel because I trust in the design and it flips the anchor into perfect position every time it comes up to the roller. It's also rated at higher strength than the rest of the rode. If I was cruising the world and spending most every night at anchor, there may be times I'd opt not to use one, but for me and my boat and my personal situation, I like it.

 

[backinblue]

Question:


What's the best knot to use for tying the bridle or just a snubber line to a rope rode? Only one I know is the rolling hitch.



My new to me boat has chain and rope rode (always had all chain in my past life). I suppose I could simply tie off the rode to the Sampson post, but when would I want the bridle and what knot.

How much chain vs. line do you have? Easiest and most sensible solution to me would be to tie off the rope rode or snubber to a cleat or the sampson post.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

For those of you with a vessel with a hawsepipe anchor deployment, how are you snubbbing? Through the hawsepipe?

 

[klee wyck]

For those of you with a vessel with a hawsepipe anchor deployment, how are you snubbbing? Through the hawsepipe?

Chain hook to bollards with two line snubber/bridle. Not through anchor hawse. See photo.