What's a next-gen anchor?

[Nomad Willy]

Ventanna wrote;
“Here is where my opinion would differ. I think from a performance perspective there is absolutely no reason to use anything but all chain with a snubber. The negatives are weight in the bow or cost, but not performance.”

Let me express it better here.
If you put a heavy weight 1/4 of the way up the rode from the anchor the rode there will be lower at that point decreasing the angle of the rode to bottom at the anchor thereby increasing the effectiveness of the anchor. Elementary of course.
If you were to put a heavy weight 1/4 of the way down the rode from the bow roller the catenary or angle of the rode to the bottom would increase the angle of the rode to the bottom presumably decreasing the effectiveness of the anchor. Another way to look at this is to consider what the angle of the rode to bottom would be if there was only chain on the upper half of the rode.

If you think about the above you can see it’s true. The loss of catenary effect putting the weight high on the rode will be small and not worth considering regarding anchoring but it does show that theoretically there will be a very small loss in catenary effect having the weight high on the rode.

So if one substituted nylon line for the upper half of the rode it would be like lifting the rode at the 1/4 distance down the rode. This would let the weight of the chain on the lower half of the rode lower the rode producing a lower angle between the rode and the bottom .. at the anchor. Of course this would increase the effectiveness of the anchor.
But if one then was to increase the weight of the lower half of the rode by the weight of the upper half of the chain that got removed there would be a great increase in the effectiveness of the anchor. I just described a combination rode.

Thus I reason that the upper half of the all chain rode is not worth having as far as weight and catenary is concerned. This is why the combination rode is so much superior to all chain.

 

[psneeld]

Not in my book or the anchoring book I was just reading.

The weight helps pull the boat closer to the anchor in all but extreme conditions where the scope becomes important and the all chain user let's more out.

So I don't agree with the "weighted" rode theory....because it depends on how one uses either type of rode. Plus many snubbers are long enough to make some of that argument even less likely.

 

[Art]

Art, I have seen enough of your posts to know you are serious.


But come on, really, you are getting a patent for a boat running aground secure anchor

I believe your word "aground" was meant to be "around"

Yup - 360 degrees around and around - back and forth - or repeatedly forever in same direction, i.e. over and again if circumstances call for it... without interfering one bit with anchor set!

 

[SteveK]

I believe your word "aground" was meant to be "around"

Yup - 360 degrees around and around - back and forth - or repeatedly forever in same direction, i.e. over and again if circumstances call for it... without interfering one bit with anchor set!

I meant aground as in boat aground is well anchored. Trying to be funny.

 

[SteveK]

..............

Thus I reason that the upper half of the all chain rode is not worth having as far as weight and catenary is concerned. This is why the combination rode is so much superior to all chain.

Unless you were to let out the exact same amount each and every time you cannot know where chain can end and rope begin.
Then there is different conditions, wind and current. That comment is to finite and just an opinion.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Unless you were to let out the exact same amount each and every time you cannot know where chain can end and rope begin.
Then there is different conditions, wind and current. That comment is to finite and just an opinion.

That was just an example.
But the weight of the chain has a vastly different effect on the catenary on every different stack up of rode and anchoring variables.
But re weight (chain) the closer you get to the anchor the better. And the further away it gets the less value it has. Becoming without any catenary value at about 2/3rds up from the anchor.
I have an anchor that has a very long and quite heavy shank and it was said in the day when it was popular that it was an anchor that worked w/o a chain leader that most all anchors required in the day.

Of course it’s an opinion (mine) and it’s shared my nobody that I know of. But if you read it and understand it you could be the first to be”in the know”.

 

[Nomad Willy]

psneeld wrote;
“The weight helps pull the boat closer to the anchor in all but extreme conditions where the scope becomes important and the all chain user let's more out.”

True, and in that case the best rode would be a heavy chain basically centered in a rode otherwise being nylon line.
Most all “users” pay out more rode in extreme conditions.

 

[Ventana]

I understand what you are saying, but it really only works in calm conditions with little or no strain on the rode. Once the wind starts to blow, any weight on the rode further from the bow than the water depth is helping.
From personal experience, our all chain rode sees strain when the anchor is set, and that is it. Most nights the chain will never again be stretched fully until it is retrieved, maybe one night in 30 we see enough wind to put a load on the snubber. I honestly think most of our anchoring is the friction of the chain on the bottom, and a cement block tied to the end would be equally effective.

Ventanna wrote;
“Here is where my opinion would differ. I think from a performance perspective there is absolutely no reason to use anything but all chain with a snubber. The negatives are weight in the bow or cost, but not performance.”

Let me express it better here.
If you put a heavy weight 1/4 of the way up the rode from the anchor the rode there will be lower at that point decreasing the angle of the rode to bottom at the anchor thereby increasing the effectiveness of the anchor. Elementary of course.
If you were to put a heavy weight 1/4 of the way down the rode from the bow roller the catenary or angle of the rode to the bottom would increase the angle of the rode to the bottom presumably decreasing the effectiveness of the anchor. Another way to look at this is to consider what the angle of the rode to bottom would be if there was only chain on the upper half of the rode.

If you think about the above you can see it’s true. The loss of catenary effect putting the weight high on the rode will be small and not worth considering regarding anchoring but it does show that theoretically there will be a very small loss in catenary effect having the weight high on the rode.

So if one substituted nylon line for the upper half of the rode it would be like lifting the rode at the 1/4 distance down the rode. This would let the weight of the chain on the lower half of the rode lower the rode producing a lower angle between the rode and the bottom .. at the anchor. Of course this would increase the effectiveness of the anchor.
But if one then was to increase the weight of the lower half of the rode by the weight of the upper half of the chain that got removed there would be a great increase in the effectiveness of the anchor. I just described a combination rode.

Thus I reason that the upper half of the all chain rode is not worth having as far as weight and catenary is concerned. This is why the combination rode is so much superior to all chain.

 

[Art]

I meant aground as in boat aground is well anchored. Trying to be funny.

I do have a really good "Funny Bone" comic lurking somewhere inside me.
Sometimes I can get laughing so hard at a joke that my sides split.

I can also be pretty funny myself sometimes...

But, when my mind is filled with design-engineering - "funny" don't enter into my mental picture!

I apologize for missing your humor!! Go ahead, make another joke... I'll try to stay aware and get it this time.

 

[psneeld]

psneeld wrote;
“The weight helps pull the boat closer to the anchor in all but extreme conditions where the scope becomes important and the all chain user let's more out.”

True, and in that case the best rode would be a heavy chain basically centered in a rode otherwise being nylon line.
Most all “users” pay out more rode in extreme conditions.

I like to enjoy cruising...the basic setup I use works for me....and it's EASY.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The fishermen in SE Alaska have 1,2 or three sizes of chain starting w the heaviest at the anchor shank joined together w shackles. Some have all chain but probably 75+ percent have nylon line at the boat end. Most of my pictures don't show the nylon line as it’s under the chain on the drum. But they have heavy chain (frequently studded) at the anchor shank. Then a smaller lighter chain an on some a third descending chain size before attaching to the nylon that ends the rode at the boat. This is probably how the fishermen survive w the low performance anchors they use along w the weight of all of their ground tackle.

So these many fishermen seem to think as I do but I’ve never heard them articulate the theory that I present here. It’s something that I’ve had under my wing for many years. And I’m aware it goes against all anchoring authorities that I know. To me it’s a “how could it be any other way” concept. I actually have the feeling few if any really understand what I’m talking about. I was looking for some to get their head around it but it dosn’t seem to have happened yet. Understanding is needed before any +/- discussion can take place.

 

[psneeld]

Don't assume the rest of us are behind you...we may be so far out in front you don't see what we are saying....


I think I know exactly what you are saying ...just don't agree with much of it or don't see it as either practical or necessary.


And am continuing to make sure other and/or new boaters hear more than one side of the story.

 

[SteveK]

I recall back in the 70's there was a fad to add any object weighing about the same as the anchor about a boat length of chain from anchor, then rope the rest of the way. The theory was the same as discussed to keep the chain a distance from the anchor on the seabed.
Don't take this verbatim as I never subscribed and may have it wrong.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Steve,
You’re basically describing a Kellet. A 15 to 30lb weight that clamps onto a rope rode or attaches w shackle-like hardware to weight the rode down 5 to 15 to 25’ up the rode. It does wonders to keep the anchor shank end down low boosting the anchor’s performance. I made a 12lb Kellet out of a commercial fishing flag-mast-float. It was a two piece lead affair. Never have used it. Because I don’t use much chain I planned to attach it where the chain ends and the nylon begins. I should have used it in the 50 knot gale w the 18lb XYZ anchor.

 

[SteveK]

Yes Kellet. Brain fog.

 

[OldDan1943]

Yes Kellet. Brain fog.

Never heard of it so I cheated. Thank you internet.

https://commutercruiser.com/whats-a-kellet-anchor-insurance/

 

[Art]

Never heard of it so I cheated. Thank you internet.

https://commutercruiser.com/whats-a-kellet-anchor-insurance/

At your young age... no wonder you never heard of it!

 

[OldDan1943]

At your young age... no wonder you never heard of it!

Art, "at your young age?" Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[markpierce]

In my sailboating days, used a short length of chain and the rest of rode with nylon rope since weight was a serious factor in racing.

With my steel trawler, I'm all chain. Since the boat is slightly bow-light, adding 100 feet of chain to the current 200 feet wouldn't cause a problem.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Mark do you use 1/4” or 5/16ths”?

When I bought my last winch (a capstan) I almost got a gypsy winch but the expense drove me to continue w what I had .. but an improved version. It’s been OK but I should have bought a chain winch. Would probably get most of the money back when we sell the boat. But the capstan does work. However the brait line tries to run off the end of the drum.

What Claw do you have .. Lewmar?

1st pic is of my capstan per comments above.
2nd pic is of the anchor (Dreadnought) That I talked about that had the reputation of not needing chain in the rode due to the long heavy shank. That shank is not a tube but solid steel.

 

[Beaverlake]

Interesting piece on the all chain vs chain/rope discussion - from the Spade site
https://www.spadeanchorusa.com/anchor-chain-vs-rope.php

And interesting piece on kellets. The conclusions are more or less consistent with other articles although I have no evidence of the author’s credentials.
Sinking a Myth – The Anchor Kellet

The Spade article got me (re)thinking my view of ground tackle re shock loads and elasticity. During few times we’ve been exposed to higher winds while anchored I was surprised to see a very tight chain. Perhaps naive on my part but still a surprise. We use all chain and a Vulcan 25.

 

[markpierce]

Mark do you use 1/4” or 5/16ths”?

,,,
What Claw do you have .. Lewmar?
.

3/8 ths. Anchor producer unknown: came with boat. But an effective claw anchor.

 

[FF]

Quote" My immediate reaction on hearing about an anchor that will not set would be asking if the person is using a Danforth copy or a CQR; neither of which hold well"

"neither of which hold well" ???

I guess cruisers world wide have been floating adrift for the past 50-75 years?

 

[SteveK]

Quote" My immediate reaction on hearing about an anchor that will not set would be asking if the person is using a Danforth copy or a CQR; neither of which hold well"

"neither of which hold well" ???

I guess cruisers world wide have been floating adrift for the past 50-75 years?

you caught that as well.
The use of kellet is lost on me when a one size up anchor does the job.
Danforth will be my backup anchor, they store well, just do not look great on the bow. IMO

 

[Nomad Willy]

Steve,
The benefit of using the kellet is that most of the time a considerably lighter anchor can be used. Like w me on the 30’ boat. I could use a 10-13lb anchor most of the time. And when it was going to blow set out the usual anchor w the kellet. At least that was the drill. The kellet was used some time ago (mostly) when most boaters anchored by hand. And most all had a working anchor and a storm anchor. Many had a working anchor, an unusual bottom anchor and a storm anchor. Only 55 - 60’ and the like had power winches. So in the day they were much more useful.

But as you suggest now w wide usage of power winches ... just go a size up. But reading the copy on TF most are already a size up. And if they started w an anchor recommended by Rocna they would be two sizes up. So if you went a size up because you didn’t have a kellet you’d be three sizes up. Sound like a lot of paranoia?

Re how the Danforth looks is mostly due to the fact that they were designed to lay flat on the foredeck and now most try to hang them at the top of the stem. The Claws look very good looking like they were designed for it. But quite a few anchors don’t hang there gracefully ... Danforths especially. So the whole thing kinda looks stupid. The SE Alaska fishermen don’t mind though. They hang the ForFjords every witch-way but backwards.

 

[Nomad Willy]

3/8 ths. Anchor producer unknown: came with boat. But an effective claw anchor.

Yes my 22lb Claw has no name at all. Bought it in an outboard shop in Alaska for $80. I’ve used it quite a bit and never had an issue until I started modifying it. Perhaps it would have picked up the same amount of mud in it’s original configuration. ??

I noticed it had about the same throat angle as the Bruce. Much less throat angle than the Lewmars .. and others. This seems the biggest difference in most Claws.

 

[SteveK]

Danforth or copies lay flat on the bottom too. When they land on top of eel grass (common here) they slide over it. That has caused many to say they do not hold well, but they do without the grass.
The CQR is a nice anchor, never had one, would consider it. The hinge allows shank movement without the plow moving. I guess that was the improvement over the plough types.
Kellet, as I said before was a fad and every other boat at anchor had one for a while. Not discounting the value of sending down the backup anchor as a kellet in heavy unexpected blow, though not common in our sheltered anchorages.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Kellet has never peen popular enough to be a fad from what I remember. Could have been mostly a sailboat thing re light gear.
Me calling out a fad is not unusual.

 

[SteveK]

Eric. Do you spell potato differently when said differently.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Steve,
Sometimes I spell .....