Use Sampson Post for anchoring?

[Nomad Willy]

Found this on FB on a small boat from ??

He felt it’s much more secure than a cleat.
But I’m thinking the Sampson Post is only as secure as what it’s attached to and how it’s attached. The post usually is stout especially if longer than the thickness of the deck and attached to the stem or other member tied into other basic structure.
As for the upper post it should be attached to the deck (of course) but there should be a beam like a house rafter that transfers much/most of the load to the gunwales and structural members there. And the stem high.

But it’s cute and interesting how the skipper used the S post to mount the chain stopper.

 

[psneeld]

Cleats are only as secure as they are attached.

 

[rgano]

That use of that S post with a metal slot is unique and effective (kinda) for holding the anchor in place in its chute up against its roller. However, IF he had enough chain to anchor with, that slot would need to be on the back side of the post to avoid pulling it out of the post as is currently the case. Of course a snubber would also be needed to avoid shock loading the post with a bar taut chain.

 

[Lepke]

Traditionally in boat building a Sampson Post was anchored to the keel and hull structure. I don't think that's the case with current yachts I've seen. Cleats aren't much better in most fiberglass hulls.
Considering it's loaded on a trailer, it's a very small boat in the pic.

 

[HiDHo]

I would want to use the base of the Sampson post vs the top, leverage not in his favor. But it probable depends some what on the size of the boat. Looks like it might have the test of time in it’s favor.

 

[FlyWright]

Cleats are only as secure as they are attached.

That's for sure!! DAMHIK...twice...

 

[rslifkin]

Traditionally in boat building a Sampson Post was anchored to the keel and hull structure. I don't think that's the case with current yachts I've seen. Cleats aren't much better in most fiberglass hulls.
Considering it's loaded on a trailer, it's a very small boat in the pic.

Mounting definitely varies widely. But given a strong enough section of deck, adequate backing to spread the load, and especially if it's near the gunwales where the deck is stiffened by the hull deck joint (or near a tabbed in bulkhead), a cleat or post mounted to the deck can be quite strong.

Historically, mounting all the way down to the keel and hull structure was the only way to make the post even remotely strong enough, as a wood deck structure wasn't strong enough with any real leverage applied (which is why a samson post is harder to mount well than a cleat).

 

[Nomad Willy]

That use of that S post with a metal slot is unique and effective (kinda) for holding the anchor in place in its chute up against its roller. However, IF he had enough chain to anchor with, that slot would need to be on the back side of the post to avoid pulling it out of the post as is currently the case. Of course a snubber would also be needed to avoid shock loading the post with a bar taut chain.

Yes I agree but through bolts would be about the same. Can’t think of any advantage or disadvantage re which side of the post the plate would go on.
Sure it’s a small boat but many small boats have big boat features. My own boat is 30’ w scuppers. Two in the aft cockpit and one amidships, port side. And if they actually were to pass water it would likely come from the bow. I’m sure the scuppers have never passed water but that would take 10’ seas or bigger. Despite being heavy for her size she rises up to seas well.

I personally don’t like sampson posts (even in screw/bolt on metal form) which I have two. I’d rather have good fairly large cleats.

 

[Benthic2]

I think if the metal rope guides ( chalks ?) on either side of the bow were moved back closer to the sampson post, they would share the load if a bridle was used.

 

[psneeld]

I personally like the design, looks and practicality of the pictures Samson post.

Many trailer sailboats. (Looks like one from the shape of the bow) have hardware that is one step above ornamental as they are for daysailing... not cruising..and dont really need to be.

If that Sampson post is attached to the hull securely, my guess is you could pick the boat up by it and possibly swing it around without failure.....

 

[sdowney717]

I always anchor with my samson post, sized 4x4 inches with a 5/8 SS rod crosswise thru it, and it is long about 6 feet and the bottom end bolted to the framing of the boat, the keel. I also use it to tie up. I only have about 6 feet of chain, so the 3/4 anchor line gets wrapped around it. It has been fine.

Original was Douglass fir and a little smaller. The replacement I found at my inlaws house where it had been in the ground as part of an ancient fence post since 1965.
Its grain structure is unlike most anything you could buy today, heavy, extremely tight small growth rings, zero defects or knots and was some kind of SYP treated post that never rotted or warped. I was blessed to find it.
My boat weight is 20,000 lbs. It is equal to some strong US IronBark Ironwood or tropical hardwood of today.

The original Douglas Fir had lost too much strength after 40 years to be reliable.

Was anchored in the Chesapeake and a strong blow thunderstorm came up with maybe 70 mph gusts, and that post held. Everyone was heading in but we stayed. Anchor line is also tied on low down the post inside the boat. Even if the top broke off, it would have to break up the entire deck to rip out that line.

 

[Simi 60]

Traditionally in boat building a Sampson Post was anchored to the keel and hull structure. I don't think that's the case with current yachts I've seen..

Exactly right.
Anything else is no more than a post shaped cleat.

 

[jleonard]

This sampson post goes to the base of the hull. It is supported at many areas as it goes below.
It is very strong.
At anchor I would wrap the snubber around the base of the post 2 times then secure with the cleat.

 

[rslifkin]

I personally don’t like sampson posts (even in screw/bolt on metal form) which I have two. I’d rather have good fairly large cleats.

In my case, I ended up settling on adding a post (bolt on with a very large backing plate) for anchoring gear. I already have a pair of good cleats up forward, so it made sense to give myself options. Plus, you can cleat chain on a samson post, but not a cleat. With no room for a chain stopper in my setup, that seems useful to me.

 

[rgano]

( chalks ?)

Chocks

 

[Nomad Willy]

I'm in good shape structurally w/o a Sampson Post.

My backing plate is on top of the foredeck and all the fasteners through the 7/8" plywood top mounted "backing plate" are through bolted w large fender washers underneath. The plywood top plate sends the forces from lines on the cleats throughout the entire foredeck. The center cleat is my Sampson Post and is about 15" long. A dedicated anchor line tie-off. The cleats (all of them are two base four bolt type. The smaller cleats are mooring line cleats. In the pic I am using the port cleat to tie off the end of the rode (5/8" Brait). The side cleats are for mooring lines or dock lines.

The top mounted ply is a piece of floor decking (scrap) that I found when living in Alaska. "Best" wood choice just is not available in the Alaska bush. It is Douglas Fir though and had 12 heavy coats of my own "Teak Oil" mix including Kerosene wash to start. Bedded w Dolphinite. I long ago cleaned up the runs on the deck of oil.

Simi 60,
In second pic is one of my "post shaped cleats" and w wide spaced mounting bolts is stronger that a cleat ... provided it is well backed up. This one is attached to the thick teak cap-rail and FG hull. It takes regular WOT engine exercise tied to the marina float. I don't like it but it is strong. At least as strong as the metal bolt flanges.

 

[rslifkin]

The top plate is a good idea (in my case, the pulpit serves that function). But I'd want to see a plate that big underneath as well.

 

[Nomad Willy]

rslifkin wrote;
"But I'd want to see a plate that big underneath as well."

Indeed but in my case it would be overkill. Remember my boat is only a 30 foot boat. Would have helped catch the oozing/dripping Dolphinite that plagued us for months above the berth. The brown "peanut butter" oozed out for at least two months. But no regrets .. I can easily pull up the Plywood base plate and replace or whatever. Hmmm


Edit;
rgano wrote;
"IF he had enough chain to anchor with, that slot would need to be on the back side of the post to avoid pulling it out of the post as is currently the case."
In post #8 I said;
"Yes I agree but through bolts would be about the same. Can’t think of any advantage or disadvantage re which side of the post the plate would go on."

Should not have said that. Better on the backside. Especially the way he is using it. Side forces Wouldn't be good. But would be much better w just smooth wood in front and the plate on the back.
But perhaps he had a reason we're not privy to. But if it were me w the plate on the front I'd through bolt it.

 

[FF]

A "Chain Stopper" is probably the best way to secure a chain , but since it will take the anchor loads in a storm it must be secured better than the boats windlass.

The better ones are cast bronze thick with a wide footprint to hold the vessel.

Galley Maid and Ideal used to make superb units . http://www.galleymaid.com/galley-maid
https://www.schaefermarine.com/our-products/ideal-windlass/ideal-windlass-accessories/?print=print


The modern SS stamped units are only to hold the anchor on the deck , not to hold the vessel.

Remember it needs a better mounting bolts and stronger backing than the windlass.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Very good points FF,
I personally never half-to think about it because my chain is so short that I’m always made fast w line and of course it goes on my big cleat. I mostly view chain as something for ships.

But your notion that the chain stopper should be stronger that the windlass ... I haven’t thought of before. But I see it may be true. But on most trawlers stoppers are small things not looking like they could take really big loads.
And if there’s waves in an anchorage weighing anchor w the boat heaving, and the anchor set deep from the heaving the windlass will need to be very strong indeed both in holding and pulling. Perhaps even stronger than the stopper as the windlass needs to overcome what the stopper is only holding.

But unless you needed to get out of there fast one would run up to a point mostly directly above the anchor and let the heaving pull the anchor out of the seafloor. Yet another but, but if the wind was blowing one downwind the anchor line would have enough scope to make the anchor dig deeper .. not come up. “But” then the skipper would need to put the boat in fwd gear to get the line close to vertical and thus weigh anchor. And of course he’d hav-to see his rode from the wheelhouse through a rainy windshield. Many trawlers can’t boast that.

So there are so many variables it’s hard to say which one should be strongest. I’d say they both should be about the same. But the windlass has gears, clutches (some) and shafts and bearings so there’s a lot of stuff that needs to be very strong.

But I’m glad you raised the point.

 

[Codger2]

The better ones are cast bronze thick with a wide footprint to hold the vessel.

 

[Nomad Willy]

How much weaker is bronze than steel?
The essence of this conversation is that stoppers need to be strong.
So why choose a weaker material than the norm ... steel.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think it’s not cleats nor Sampson posts that are the usual failure point. Think it’s the installation. Knowing we have a Jordan series drogue at time of construction had core removed and solid GRP built over an area 4 x the footprint of the aft cleats. Then had G10 done in. That whole thing glassed in. Then a oversized SS backing plate which was tapped although double nuts used as well. Did similar for the bow cleats but not the midship ones feeling they will never see those kind of forces. Know of boats that have had their cleats ripped off or the whole bow roller assembly torn away while anchored. Also feel two snubbers should be used and they brought directly to cleats with no possibility of chaff. The windlass should never be loaded with any force at anchor nor the roller assembly. Although I don’t like their anchor do like the Mantus chain hook. Pretty foolproof. As strong as the chain and we can undo do it in the dark. Have given up on truckers hitches which can be a bear to undo.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have crawled around in wood. See Sampson posts supported by-
A timber under the deck running forward to the keelson
Two timbers or one notched timber under the deck running laterally.
Either a 45 degree timber running from the forward side of the post just under the deck down to the keel or a fore and aft bulkhead supporting the forward portion of it. Only the portion above deck isn’t supported.
Sampson posts were necessary as wood is much stronger in compression than shear. Not necessary or even desirable in modern non plank on frame construction. It’s just another trip hazard imho.

 

[psneeld]

Seems to me the predominant theory of anchoring is that every time one anchors, they expect to anchor through a hurricane.

Seems to me, after hundreds and hundreds of nights anchoring....my usual is 90 percent is in usually less than 15 knots of wind....8 percent in more than a few minutes of 15 to 25 knots of wind, 1 percent of more than a few minutes of 25 to 35 knots of wind and maybe 1 percent where a thunderstorm may gust 35 to 60 or so.

So rather than have my day to day anchor and gear and anchoring mentality always geared towards hurricanes....I gear up and anchor to expect the 99th percentile...

I can understand the philosophy of preparing for the worst...but I know for a fact far fewer are prepared for fire or sinking which to me is way more likely than being in an unexpected hurricane overnight.

If I cruise where I MIGHT be caught in severe weather with no other options...then anchoring differently or with different gear might make it into my checklists.

 

[rslifkin]

I fall somewhere in between on that theory. Primary anchor is sized for a hefty thunderstorm. I choose scope based on wind conditions, however. During the day if I'm not expecting gusts over 25 or so, 3.5 or 4:1 is plenty. I'll typically bump up to 5:1 overnight even in light weather though.

In most weather, I'll either leave the rode over the roller and cleated on the samson post (with chafe protection where it goes over the roller, etc.) or if I'm in shallower water and on all chain, I'll run a snubber over the roller with the chain (and with chafe protection). In heavy weather, I'd go for 2 snubbers to form a bridle to the bow cleats (even if into the rope portion of the rode) to un-load the pulpit and roller. The pulpit and roller on my boat are pretty darn strong, but I don't really want to find out just how strong.

For the most part, with my setup it would be more work to change things up for light weather vs just being prepared for at least moderately snotty weather other than maybe deploying less scope.

 

[psneeld]

But prepared for 25-35 steady (where all but the better anchorages become uncomfortable or iffy for holding, etc) or an unexpected 60 knot thunderstorm is different than storm prep where you worry about snapping pulpit, breaking Sampson posts, snapping 1/2 inch snubbers, etc, etc.

Thats why I said I figure on what I can reasonably expect even if it is extra rare...hurricanes, I will pull, relocate or purchase the equipment necessary for where I decide to ride it out...which is extremely doubtful.

 

[Hippocampus]

Totally agree. But we’ve found having a one size fits all works for us. Have a fairly fixed routine. We can do this evolution with out headsets and usually with few or no hand signals. The alarms stays quiet and we sleep well.
Having seen folks drag in Maine, the loose mud of Block I. and the chessie, where it takes nothing take much to get you dragging. Also the sudden down drafts through the eastern Caribbean can pack a punch. So think we’ll keep to our routine. Have even seen people break free from a large wake when something big decides to go through the field at speed. Believe there’s really no more effort doing it “right” than doing it with half a cheek. So far (knock on wood) haven’t had a windlass clutch fail nor broken gears. Haven’t had to rebuild a windlass yet. Think that’s because we never stress it and always use snubbers. It’s not made to move the boat nor hold it. It should just pick up the chain (and anchor after it’s free).
If a hurricane is expected haul. All insurance pays for out if not the splash afterwards as well. .seems we’re saying the same thing but differently.

 

[rgano]

I see the notion of "chain stopper" being confused with anchor keeper which is a device used to hold the anchor on board the vessel. I can see where a novice might mistakenly think that with an all chain rode a keeper could hold the boat against a deployed anchor. That's why we need to push bridles/snubbers made of stretchable fibers.

 

[psneeld]

"Right"..... great word, but the most often misused word in boating if applied to everyone, every boat, every situation.