Tripping anchor windlass breaker.

[jclays]

First time anchoring since I bought my Mainship 350 one year ago. Kept tripping my windlass breaker on retrieval. Anchor chain straight down 100ft just off the bottom. Had to reset breaker at least 5 times to get the anchor up. Motor was hot. Could smell the gear oil. Couldn’t keep your hand on it.

Voltage on the line side of the switch was 13.44 volts. NO LOAD

With LOAD 10.4 then drop to 9.80 volts

Clamp amp reading initial start up 104 amps climbing to 119 amps running.

Breaker is a Lewmar 90amp breaker.

Batteries are new. Cables are 1/0 . Run is 30ft aprox

Bearings, seals, gear oil new as of refurbishment 8 months ago.

 

[Comodave]

Sounds like it could be a loose or corroded connection. Check the voltage at each connection and make sure there isn’t a big drop on any. Also check the crimp on each connection. Is the 30’ one way or round trip?

 

[jclays]

Battery to windlass.

 

[O C Diver]

What battery(s) are running the Windlass?
What size wire and how long between battery and windlass?
Based on the starting voltage, I assume the engine is running. What RPM and do you know the amperage the alternator is putting out at that RPM?

Low voltage is a killer and requires additional amperage which is what tripped the breaker. With out knowing wire size, length, battery capacity and health, it's hard to diagnose the problem as design or warn components (mediocre battery). The first thing I would do if the engine alternator is changing the battery that the windlass is running off of, would be to increase the engine RPM to maybe 1,200 to 1,500 while operating the windlass (reduce RPM when moving the boat forward). Most alternators put out very little amperage near idle. When increasing the RPM, you maintain voltage and increase available amperage. If the windlass draws 100 amps and the alternator is putting out 75 amps at 1,500 RPM, you should see a huge difference. This doesn't solve the problem, but removes the windlass as the cause.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

The cable run is actually 60’ not 30’. You have to measure round trip from the battery to the windlass and then back to the battery. There are 2 battery voltage drop charts, 10% and 3%. The 3% is for critical circuits and the 10% for lesser important circuits. However I only use the 3% drop chart because everything works better with higher voltage. In your case the 10% drop chart shows that 1/0 cable is ok but it isn’t on the 3% drop chart, it is then undersize. My thought process is to have 3% or less drop on all circuits, it costs a bit more once but then you have great voltage forever. Everything run better and lasts longer with good voltage, motors run cooler and your windlass motor is running extremely hot. So you need better voltage at the motor. As I said before you may have a high resistance connection in the cabling or it may be the case that your cables are undersize even if the 10% drop chart says they are ok. Check and/or redo the connectors in all the cabling. If it is all good then you could run a second cable in parallel from the batteries to the windlass. That will give you effectively larger cables. And you won’t have to spend as much to get say 4/0 cables.

 

[Jc180]

The windlass motor is a constant power machine. If the voltage is low, it draws more current to compensate which is the cause of your over heating and breaker tripping. As others have said the low voltage cause may be a bad connection, undersized cables, discharged battery or a combination. I am a fan of a dedicated battery under the forward berth for the windlass. Solves the voltage drop problem caused by the long cable runs. I charge my dedicated windlass battery with a Balmar Duo Charge .

 

[Lepke]

The easy fix, if there's room, put a battery close to the windlass. It's easier to send charging amps to a remote battery than 100 amps 30 feet.

 

[jclays]

Could a defective motor cause the high amperage? The windlass is 24 years old. The bearings were completely deteriorated from water leaks and moisture

 

[SoWhat]

You don't mention the windlass model or chain size but I would expect max draw to be no more than 80A. New batteries and 1/0 cable should be more than sufficient. Refurbishment caught my eye. Did they test or replace the motor? I would probably disassemble to check bearings and gear clearances. If something is binding you will get a high draw. But as mentioned it is most likely a bad connection or the motor is shot.

 

[O C Diver]

Could a defective motor cause the high amperage? The windlass is 24 years old. The bearings were completely deteriorated from water leaks and moisture

I would expect the manufacturer / rebuilder to competently test the windlass after rebuilding, including amp draw. If you solve the voltage drop, the excessive amperage and heating should go away.

Ted

 

[jclays]

What battery(s) are running the Windlass?
What size wire and how long between battery and windlass?
Based on the starting voltage, I assume the engine is running. What RPM and do you know the amperage the alternator is putting out at that RPM?

Low voltage is a killer and requires additional amperage which is what tripped the breaker. With out knowing wire size, length, battery capacity and health, it's hard to diagnose the problem as design or warn components (mediocre battery). The first thing I would do if the engine alternator is changing the battery that the windlass is running off of, would be to increase the engine RPM to maybe 1,200 to 1,500 while operating the windlass (reduce RPM when moving the boat forward). Most alternators put out very little amperage near idle. When increasing the RPM, you maintain voltage and increase available amperage. If the windlass draws 100 amps and the alternator is putting out 75 amps at 1,500 RPM, you should see a huge difference. This doesn't solve the problem, but removes the windlass as the cause.

Ted

Please read post. The info is there

 

[jclays]

The motor was not re built. Ran on my bench fine. Bearings where almost none existent. Replaced bearings and seals like for like.

 

[jclays]

You don't mention the windlass model or chain size but I would expect max draw to be no more than 80A. New batteries and 1/0 cable should be more than sufficient. Refurbishment caught my eye. Did they test or replace the motor? I would probably disassemble to check bearings and gear clearances. If something is binding you will get a high draw. But as mentioned it is most likely a bad connection or the motor is shot.

Windlass is Lewmar Concept 1. Now obsolete. Chain size 5/16”. 100ft
Amperage per manual is 100 a max

 

[jclays]

The windlass motor is a constant power machine. If the voltage is low, it draws more current to compensate which is the cause of your over heating and breaker tripping. As others have said the low voltage cause may be a bad connection, undersized cables, discharged battery or a combination. I am a fan of a dedicated battery under the forward berth for the windlass. Solves the voltage drop problem caused by the long cable runs. I charge my dedicated windlass battery with a Balmar Duo Charge .

You do not have the alternator charge?

 

[catalinajack]

Some boaters start their generators. The charger then supplies about 13.2 volts so no need to rely on the 12.7 volts or less in the batteries.

 

[Jc180]

You do not have the alternator charge?

Alternator charges house bank, duo charge from house to windlass battery. So in effect, alternator does charge both.

 

[O C Diver]

Please read post. The info is there

The motor was not re built. Ran on my bench fine. Bearings where almost none existent. Replaced bearings and seals like for like.

Apologize for missing the cabling information.

A new battery doesn't mean it isn't defective.

Questions:

So the windlass has never worked correctly since it was rebuilt?

So you did nothing to the motor? The bearings you are referring to were part of the gearbox assembly?

Just because the motor runs with no load, doesn't mean it will run under load. If it were mine, I would want to determine if it were in the motor, battery or cabling. At 100 amps, a normal car battery will run the windlass lifting chain and the anchor in your boat slip. Put the battery next to the windlass and wire it up. Drop the anchor manually. With a volt meter and your amp clamp ring in place, try lifting the chain and anchor. If the voltage crashes or the amperage spikes, STOP.

Alternatively, it might be worth looking at the motor brushes and armature. I'm not good with electric motor repair, but a worn out brush, a hanging brush not making full contact, or a warn armature where the brushes contact, might allow it to run without a load, but not well under load.

Ted

 

[Jc180]

Could a defective motor cause the high amperage? The windlass is 24 years old. The bearings were completely deteriorated from water leaks and moisture

Yes. 1) If the motor requires more energy to turn due to mechanical binding. Don’t know if the motor has bearings or bushings, but they may be warn or corroded as well. 2) If the winding is partially shorted, it would draw more current. Doubt you have a partially shorted winding. If you had the winding resistance spec, you could test the winding resistance.

 

[Jc180]

jclays
Do you know if the windlasss ever worked? Agree with previous posters, need to eliminate the power source including battery, cables, and connections as a problem. A reasonable test would be to rig up a separate temporary battery and cables close to the windlass and then run it under load. Record current and voltage data.

 

[jclays]

The windlass never worked when I purchased the boat last year. It had been seized due to the shaft bearings being deteriorated. I didn't have anyway to test the motor except to run it on my bench.
Im inclined to think the motor is the issue.
I have 2 new batteries purchased February this year. The batteries are not defective.
Cables are 1/0 look almost new.
Connectors on all ends are tight and clean.
Voltage at the windlass is 13.44.
On start up the windlass goes from 0 amps to 119/122 amps within 3 seconds the voltage then drops in relation to the amperage climbing. I'm inclined to think the motor is creating a lot of resistance possibly from issues in the windings? Armature? I'm not that well versed in electric motors.

Does the breaker have to be near the source battery or can it be moved forward close to the windlass?
The battery and breaker are in the engine room astern and below. When adrift in a crowded anchorage and solo operating, running down below into the engine room is not the best or safest thing to do.

 

[Jc180]

jclays
Took a look at your voltage and current data in the original post. DC power in watts is amps x volts.
1) 10.4 x 104 = 1081 watts
2) 9.8 x 119 = 1166 watts

So think the windlass is likely rated at nominally 1000 watts. If you hhad 12.5 volts available the current would have been 1000/12.5 = 80 amps. So if you had strong power source, would have been ok. The other factor to note here is that the windlass was loaded to its capacity and then some. 5/16” chain is about a pound a foot and anchor probably 35 lb for about 135 pounds doesn’t seem enough to load it, so maybe still internal binding in windlass?

 

[jclays]

Yep Thanks.
The parts for the Lewmar Concept 1 are no longer available. Lewmar told me that the V2 was a direct replacement. Defender Marine sells the replacement motor with gearbox for the Lewmar Concept1/ V2 windlass. I'm possibly going to go that route since everything else will be a direct bolt up. The price is half the complete replacement.

 

[jclays]

Does the breaker have to be near the source battery or can it be moved forward close to the windlass?
The battery and breaker are in the engine room astern and below. When adrift in a crowded anchorage and solo operating, running down below into the engine room to reset the breaker is not the best or safest thing to do.

 

[Jc180]

Think you have two problems. The first making the second worse. The first is that your windlass is running as if is at max load when only lifting about 135lb. Which is requiring max amps for not much work. Could it be the motor? Doubtful. The second problem is that with this high current draw, your power supply voltage drop is excessive. I get the new batteries and the 1/0 cable, but bet a decent size battery and much shorter 4/0 cables would solve. As I mentioned before, you could do a temporary set up to test. Sorry for the tough love.

 

[O C Diver]

Does the breaker have to be near the source battery or can it be moved forward close to the windlass?
The battery and breaker are in the engine room astern and below. When adrift in a crowded anchorage and solo operating, running down below into the engine room to reset the breaker is not the best or safest thing to do.

The fuse / breaker is there to protect the wiring.

Bare with me.

If you have a fuse where the cable comes off the battery or distribution panel, then you can move the breaker to a more convenient location. If you only have the breaker, it needs to be back by the battery. The reasoning is that if the insulation fails and the positive cable comes in contact with the negative or the engine, the fuse or breaker will pop instead of the battery.

My battery bank has a fuse. Each lead off the distribution panel has a fuse. The windlass breaker is where it's convenient.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

Does the breaker have to be near the source battery or can it be moved forward close to the windlass?
The battery and breaker are in the engine room astern and below. When adrift in a crowded anchorage and solo operating, running down below into the engine room to reset the breaker is not the best or safest thing to do.

Yes, the breaker is there to protect the wiring, not the windlass. It needs to be near the source of the power, as in the batteries. That way if there is a short somewhere in the wiring the breaker will trip. If the breaker is near the windlass and there is a short in the wiring the breaker probably won’t trip then you get a fire.

 

[jclays]

I’ll move a battery topside by the windlass and connect a pair of 1/0 jumpers and check the numbers

 

[SoWhat]

jclays
So think the windlass is likely rated at nominally 1000 watts. If you hhad 12.5 volts available the current would have been 1000/12.5 = 80 amps. So if you had strong power source, would have been ok. The other factor to note here is that the windlass was loaded to its capacity and then some. 5/16” chain is about a pound a foot and anchor probably 35 lb for about 135 pounds doesn’t seem enough to load it, so maybe still internal binding in windlass?

Looked at some specs online. Concept 1 appears to have a 700W motor and working load is 100lbs.

It would therefor appear that OP is exceeding the capacity of the motor.
A new 700W motor from a V2 has a working load of 358 lbs.

WM lists the motor (wo gears) for ~$350)

 

[rgano]

Very good discussion here. I am learning a lot. Thanks everybody!

 

[motion30]

Windlass is Lewmar Concept 1. Now obsolete. Chain size 5/16”. 100ft
Amperage per manual is 100 a max[/
QUOTE]
You say The Windlass can have 100 amperage draw Max. And yet you have a 90 amp breaker, am I the only one to see this problem?