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06-23-2018, 11:37 PM
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#41
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Master and Commander
City: Vallejo CA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,559
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I drop anchor (Chinese version of a Bruce), and every time the current or wind sets the anchor securely. Good mud in the San Francisco estuary!
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Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
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06-25-2018, 11:53 AM
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#42
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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How do you know it’s secure Mark? Ever hooked a tree or log?
MYTravler wrote;
“I have an all-chain rode, but contrary to conventional wisdom, do not experience any shock/jerk, even without a snubber. It seems that the catenary absorbs the shock very nicely.”
I’ve been think’in that all along w the large amount of snubber talk recently. But w/o much chain (a boat length or less) the rode is the best snubber known. But I agree w you re the above.
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Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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06-26-2018, 09:32 AM
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#43
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TF Site Team
City: Westerly, RI
Vessel Name: N/A
Vessel Model: 1999 Mainship 350 Trawler
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,160
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When the wind gets high enough, I can hear my snubbers creaking and groaning. I would not want to put those loads on the windlass.
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06-26-2018, 09:50 AM
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#44
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Guru
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MYTraveler
It seems that the catenary absorbs the shock very nicely.
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The chain catenary will absorb the shock well. Until it doesn't. In ordinary conditions there is not enough surge energy to straighten the chain. In really strong storm conditions there is, then you want something stretchy somewhere in the system. Rigging the snubber in 50 knots and a seaway at 3 AM in driving rain on rare occasion, has to be traded off with doing it every time at anchor/cocktail hour.
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06-26-2018, 11:13 AM
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#45
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Guru
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
The chain catenary will absorb the shock well. Until it doesn't. In ordinary conditions there is not enough surge energy to straighten the chain. In really strong storm conditions there is, then you want something stretchy somewhere in the system. Rigging the snubber in 50 knots and a seaway at 3 AM in driving rain on rare occasion, has to be traded off with doing it every time at anchor/cocktail hour.
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Your assuming all vessels need snubbers 100% of time. A good chain stopper suffices for many under most conditions. The stopper can be a short line to a cleat, locking pawl on horizontal windlass or deck fitting with a bolt through the chain.
I am currently surrounded by all manners of commercial vessels with nice stout deck mounted horizontal windlass drums and nary a “snubber” arrangement in sight. Possibly Eric is correct, the snubber discussion is a new phenomena brought about by flimsy fore decks and light weight vertical capstans that many of us utilize.
This BS aside, selecting a secure anchorage when big blows are predicted is sure a nice attraction of SE Alaska.
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06-26-2018, 03:38 PM
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#46
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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Sunchaser,
Perhaps brought on mostly as a few people mentioned it and then a whole bunch thought the old salts all use snubbers. Instant buzz word. All ya gotta do is flip it out and all think you’re a sage old salt.
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Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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06-26-2018, 04:26 PM
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#47
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Guru
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,181
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I am a bit confused and I have heard this scenario from others. Where they set their anchor with a short scope and then let out more chain once the anchor is in the sea bottom. That really makes no sense to me if anything you would set your anchor with a long scope they make sure it digs in and then if you need to shorten up the scope
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06-26-2018, 07:42 PM
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#48
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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I agree basically w you motiom,
But many anchors perform better at long scope and many at short scope too. And many in-between. And since few of us know our own anchors in this way and personally I know of no way to “look it up”. Good for independent folks but very frustrating for black and white or bythe book types. One can (over time) notice when their anchor performs less than perfect at various scopes. Every time you anchor it’s an opportunity to learn about your anchor.
So if it makes no sense to you perhaps you should experiment during benign conditions so you’re better prepared when things get nasty. I do know of one anchor that during anchor tests did better at shorter scope than longer.
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Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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06-27-2018, 06:42 AM
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#49
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Senior Member
City: Burgess, VA
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
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[QUOTE=dhays;675358]Steve, I’m confused by your bridle vs snubber. You have a bridle that you use to set the anchor, then do you remove the bridle and attach a snubber? Can you describe a bit what you use as a bridle and then what you use as a snubber? Why the snubber instead of the bridle? Why set with the bridle and not the snubber?
Let me try to explain (probably easier to do than explain. If I had better skills on attaching diagrams on this list I could draw it.): To set the anchor, I have a specific line for this process. One end has a loop that I attach the starboard forward large cleat. There is a loop (made with a knot) at a specific location on the line. The knotted loop goes over the port forward large cleat. The line that extends beyond the knotted loop is then secured the exact middle of the section of the line between the two loops using a rolling hitch. The bitter end of the line then can extend directly next to the chain in the bow roller slot. I attach the bitter end to the chain using a rolling hitch while in the bow roller slot.
The distance between the two loops in the line is long enough to allow the loop to be just forward of the windlass. When setting the anchor and pulling the rode tight with the engines, I feed a little more chain out until the line is tight and and the chain from the windlass to the rolling hitch is relaxed (no tension on the windlass). I continue to back down until set. The rolling hitch is attached to the chain so that when pulling taunt, the knot is just forward of the bow roller. When I feel the set is secure, I go to neutral and reverse the windlass for only about a foot or so to untie the rolling hitch.
I remove the “setting line” (whatever one wants to call this) and install the snubber which attaches to the same cleats, goes through the anti-chafing rail chocks, under each side of the rails, and then attach to the chain using a rolling hitch (about the same place where I attached the setting line). I feed out the chain until the snubber is taking the tension and the chain aft of the rolling hitch is relaxed.
Okay, why two lines that seem to do the same thing? The “setting line” is shorter and follows through the bow roller exactly along the same path as the chain. It is easy to retreive and release. The snubber bridle (if that is what some would call this) is longer and of course the two sides do not follow along the chain in the bow roller. If something happens that I do not like in the setting process, this “setting line” is much easier to remove or re-adjust.
Hope this makes sense. Works for me quite nicely.
Steve
__________________
Steve Bedford
Burgess, VA
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06-27-2018, 08:07 AM
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#50
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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Steve Bedford wrote;
“If I had better skills on attaching diagrams on this list I could draw it.”
Cameras are so good now at short focal length when I really want to post a drawing I get out a 8x11 tablet and a black marking pen. Make the drawing using the whole 8x11 page. Put it on my desktop and post it as a picture. It’s so simple I don’t know why I don’t do it more often.
Just did this in about two minutes w my 14” i-pad. I do have trouble getting pics oriented right w my i-pad. Here’s another I drew for a boating forum on FB.
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Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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06-27-2018, 08:56 AM
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#51
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Grand Vizier
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy
How do you know it’s secure Mark? Ever hooked a tree or log?
MYTravler wrote;
“I have an all-chain rode, but contrary to conventional wisdom, do not experience any shock/jerk, even without a snubber. It seems that the catenary absorbs the shock very nicely.”
I’ve been think’in that all along w the large amount of snubber talk recently. But w/o much chain (a boat length or less) the rode is the best snubber known. But I agree w you re the above.
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Catenary does supply all the shock absorbtion you need. Until it starts blowing, then it fails, which is one main reason why people use snub lines.
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06-27-2018, 09:07 AM
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#52
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Grand Vizier
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motion30
I am a bit confused and I have heard this scenario from others. Where they set their anchor with a short scope and then let out more chain once the anchor is in the sea bottom. That really makes no sense to me if anything you would set your anchor with a long scope they make sure it digs in and then if you need to shorten up the scope
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Others may have a different take, but the rationale is that if an anchor is "set" at short scope, it will likely only improve its set with more scope. If it is set with long scope, you have no guarantee it will remain set when you then shorten scope.
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06-27-2018, 09:29 AM
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#53
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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[QUOTE=Steve Bedford;676500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays
Okay, why two lines that seem to do the same thing? The “setting line” is shorter and follows through the bow roller exactly along the same path as the chain. It is easy to retreive and release. The snubber bridle (if that is what some would call this) is longer and of course the two sides do not follow along the chain in the bow roller. If something happens that I do not like in the setting process, this “setting line” is much easier to remove or re-adjust.
Hope this makes sense. Works for me quite nicely.
Steve
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Makes perfect sense, thanks. I do something very similar. I use a short line that has a chain hook spliced on the end. The opposite end is cleated to a cleat next to the windlass. This is what I use for setting the anchor and securing the anchor while under way.
Once the anchor is set, I take off this time, and attached a bridle.
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06-27-2018, 09:29 AM
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#54
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Senior Member
City: Burgess, VA
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
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Setting Anchor
Eric wrote: “Cameras are so good now at short focal length when I really want to post a drawing I get out a 8x11 tablet and a black marking pen. Make the drawing using the whole 8x11 page. Put it on my desktop and post it as a picture. It’s so simple I don’t know why I don’t do it more often.“
Here goes. Hope the diagram/pic uploaded.
Steve
__________________
Steve Bedford
Burgess, VA
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06-27-2018, 09:31 AM
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#55
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Grand Vizier
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser
Your assuming all vessels need snubbers 100% of time. A good chain stopper suffices for many under most conditions. The stopper can be a short line to a cleat, locking pawl on horizontal windlass or deck fitting with a bolt through the chain.
I am currently surrounded by all manners of commercial vessels with nice stout deck mounted horizontal windlass drums and nary a “snubber” arrangement in sight. Possibly Eric is correct, the snubber discussion is a new phenomena brought about by flimsy fore decks and light weight vertical capstans that many of us utilize.
This BS aside, selecting a secure anchorage when big blows are predicted is sure a nice attraction of SE Alaska.
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It's less of an issue with Delfin, but we started using a snub line on our sailboat so we didn't have to listen to the chain grinding through the night. Not a fad, just a desire for a good night's sleep.
This is a pretty good description of our technique, and rationale. I'd use a longer snubber that Novak does, but the principle is the same.
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06-27-2018, 09:41 AM
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#56
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Senior Member
City: Burgess, VA
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
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Setting Anchor
Snubber diagram/Pic:
Steve
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Steve Bedford
Burgess, VA
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06-27-2018, 09:44 AM
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#57
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Senior Member
City: Burgess, VA
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 148
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Setting Anchor
Snubber pic/diagram:
Hopefully this time it works!
Steve
__________________
Steve Bedford
Burgess, VA
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06-27-2018, 10:31 AM
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#58
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Guru
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin
It's less of an issue with Delfin, but we started using a snub line on our sailboat so we didn't have to listen to the chain grinding through the night. Not a fad, just a desire for a good night's sleep.
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Good post Carl. I’d guess this mirrors most of the thinking on this thread. Certainly the case with us.
Anchoring techniques in higher winds with +5 foot surge is a whole different story. The South Pacific Islands being a good example. On power boats in the high surge waters a well oversized anchor and chain and heavy duty chain stopper is the preference of many. It would seem that chafe issues largely negate the use of a traditional (description varies) rope snubber unless backed up by a stout chain stopper.
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06-27-2018, 10:41 AM
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#59
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Grand Vizier
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser
Good post Carl. I’d guess this mirrors most of the thinking on this thread. Certainly the case with us.
Anchoring techniques in higher winds with +5 foot surge is a whole different story. The South Pacific Islands being a good example. On power boats in the high surge waters a well oversized anchor and chain and heavy duty chain stopper is the preference of many. It would seem that chafe issues largely negate the use of a traditional (description varies) rope snubber unless backed up by a stout chain stopper.
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Delfin has a very stout top roller the snub line goes over, with the chain feeding out through a lower roller, so snub line chafe over that top roller is not an issue. If a vessel doesn't have strong attachment points for a snub line that give a fair lead, IMHO one should be provided. Chafe is one of the reasons why I don't much care for bridles, since chafe is much harder to prevent.
You kind of see the roller setup in this picture, taken before I put the masts back on, or completed the interior work.
__________________
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handey
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06-27-2018, 11:03 AM
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#60
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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Delfin,
I wasn’t saying the snubber was a fad. Just the word and talking about it on TF.
That would make a better avatar (pic in your post #59) than your current avatar. It looks a bit like your boat is bent down in the middle. I’ll bet you’ve got much better pics than 59 too.
__________________
Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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