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Old 09-14-2020, 07:02 PM   #41
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Both bridle and snubber, or better said “either” will also almost eliminate “chain rattle” from an all chain rode, especially on hard or rocky bottom.

Problem with one or the other is the occasional (or inevitable) need to let out more scope. In that case, you will need to bring anchor rode in and un-attach the snubber or bridle before you can slack out more rode. Picture this; a storm comes up .
I don't like this "feature" either, but I have mostly solved for it. I have a snubber much longer than necessary (exact length dependent on boat), and I only let out the usual amount of snubber line when anchoring. Snubber comes up on deck. For 95% of those middle of the night times you want to let out more scope, all I need to do is let out more rode along with commensurate amount of snubber. Since my snubbers are (relatively) lighter line, it's not a huge or unwieldy thing.

For the other 5%, I wouldn't have wanted no snubber either, so either way I'd be doing something more radical.

For this reason I don't have my snubber attached to a water level eye, but possibly you could. On one sailboat we used a snatch block out on the bowsprit to run the snubber through (bowsprit on sailboat is very strong as it is part of the rigging) and then back to our deck* In our case that was because it made the boat lie much more quietly, but if there were an appropriate block I suppose one could do this with a block at the water level eye (tho as I think about it, it would live there and be subjected to tons of salt, so maybe nevermind).

(*credit to Lin and Larry Pardey for that method)
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:21 AM   #42
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”””Well, for towing a bridle does more to spread the towing load than specifically just for the yaw. (QUOTE)

Sorry, I have to take issue with that. If you’ve ever towed a barge without a bridle you’ll know that it is a necessity. It would be a very rare barge that will tow straight without it. And if the bridle is “more” for spreading the load, how is it that it only appears on one end of the hawser? Is the “load” at the barge end of the hawser different from the towing vessel end where it has a single attachment point?

(QUOTE)If conditions come up that require suddenly letting out chain, no problem, leave the bridle on there and retrieve it when better conditions return. I can readily fashion another with a rolling hitch and a line. (QUOTE)

All I’m saying is that I prefer an anchor tackle that I can adjust, in or out, without encumbrances, that’s all. And that more often than not, when these adjustments need to be made the conditions are to say the least, not good. And as I said before, it is night time, it is windy, it is choppy, dark, we’re older, out of shape and overweight.

(QUOTE)But then I tend not to go for overnight with anything less than a 5:1 scope which should be more than adequate for any likely forecasted conditions.(QUOTE)

I’m only trying to point out that in an emergency a bridle might get in the way. Forecasted conditions are all well and good, but You don’t have to boat for long before you look up and say, “Wow, that wasn’t in the forecast!”.

(QUOTE)I'm always skeptical when someone running one style of rig looks for specific bad situations to justify not using others. Anchoring is rife with that sort of sensationalizing.
That is exactly what I’m pointing out, a specific “bad situation” to justify why I don’t use a certain Rig.

I didn’t realize I was sensationalizing, just pointing out , in my opinion, flaws in a system. Not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone.

I don’t blame anyone for being skeptical of people’s views that show up on forums, you really have to read between the lines to separate the wheat from the chaff, and even then it is sometimes hard.

Dan
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:46 AM   #43
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I've used a Mantus bridle for years, it lives out on the foredeck and looks as good as new. I sleep in the v berth and the big thing for me is it stops all the creaks from the chain moving around in the pulpit rollers.
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Old 09-15-2020, 08:00 AM   #44
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That is exactly what I’m pointing out, a specific “bad situation” to justify why I don’t use a certain Rig.

I didn’t realize I was sensationalizing, just pointing out , in my opinion, flaws in a system. Not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone.

I don’t blame anyone for being skeptical of people’s views that show up on forums, you really have to read between the lines to separate the wheat from the chaff, and even then it is sometimes hard.

Dan
Dan, maybe I misunderstand the philosophy of a bridle. To me, the bridle is designed to spread the load over 2 points (cleats). What the operator attaches to the bridle is his decision.
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Old 09-15-2020, 02:43 PM   #45
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Dan, maybe I misunderstand the philosophy of a bridle. To me, the bridle is designed to spread the load over 2 points (cleats). What the operator attaches to the bridle is his decision.
Dan, I think a bridle can have many functions,

Number one, it is a hybrid of a single snubber, so

1. Snubber- to take some shock load out of an all chain rode

2. Safety- having two lines instead of one

3. Two points of attachment. But keep in mind that each must be as strong as the anchor gear, because each will carry the full load some of the time.

3. yaw relief- in normal use the two leads of the bridle are spread apart as much as possible (where the connect to the boat) and equal length. When the boat is directly in line with the anchor rode, both carry the load. As soon as the boat starts to yaw, the outboard pennant starts to take the majority of the strain and as soon as it does it try’s to pull the bow back straight. So when the bow tends to Starboard the Starboard pennant comes under strain and pulls the bow back towards the anchor. Of course the wider the bow the better. Most sailboats get little effect due to narrow bow. Trawlers much more bluff forward so two part bridle can be attached much further apart, thus more effective. Catamarans with their wide beam can get great effect . Conversely, that progression of boat designs each seem to “need” a bridle more and more.

Do you suppose there has been some confusion in this thread over the distinction between snubber and bridle. There is some overlap. Maybe we should call a bridle a “2-part bridle”.?

Dan
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Old 09-15-2020, 03:47 PM   #46
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Dan, I think a bridle can have many functions,

Number one, it is a hybrid of a single snubber, so

1. Snubber- to take some shock load out of an all chain rode

2. Safety- having two lines instead of one

3. Two points of attachment. But keep in mind that each must be as strong as the anchor gear, because each will carry the full load some of the time.

3. yaw relief- in normal use the two leads of the bridle are spread apart as much as possible (where the connect to the boat) and equal length. When the boat is directly in line with the anchor rode, both carry the load. As soon as the boat starts to yaw, the outboard pennant starts to take the majority of the strain and as soon as it does it try’s to pull the bow back straight. So when the bow tends to Starboard the Starboard pennant comes under strain and pulls the bow back towards the anchor. Of course the wider the bow the better. Most sailboats get little effect due to narrow bow. Trawlers much more bluff forward so two part bridle can be attached much further apart, thus more effective. Catamarans with their wide beam can get great effect . Conversely, that progression of boat designs each seem to “need” a bridle more and more.

Do you suppose there has been some confusion in this thread over the distinction between snubber and bridle. There is some overlap. Maybe we should call a bridle a “2-part bridle”.?

Dan
#4 bridle for towing.... keeping the towed vessel centered to the towing vessel.

Per a snubber, yup reduce the shock of an all chain rode. The same for the bridle.

I have yet to see a capstan or wench designed to absorb the shock associated with riding on just the anchor rode. The snubber or bridle will spread these forces to a deck cleat or in the case of a bridle, between two deck cleats.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:44 PM   #47
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Bridles work to dampen yaw. Fine tuning can be made by adjusting bridle length. Longer is better to a certain extent. The wider apart the better also.
Did you ever see a tug towing a barge without a bridle at the bow of the barge? Without the bridle the barge will yaw terribly

Both bridle and snubber, or better said “either” will also almost eliminate “chain rattle” from an all chain rode, especially on hard or rocky bottom.

Problem with one or the other is the occasional (or inevitable) need to let out more scope. In that case, you will need to bring anchor rode in and un-attach the snubber or bridle before you can slack out more rode. Picture this; a storm comes up unexpectedly at night and it has quickly become quite choppy. And it’s dark. And you haven’t trained your mate properly in all these circumstances.

Oh, and don’t forget that you are a year older, out of shape and overweight!

I find it much easier to have chain only as long as I normally need as minimum for anchoring, in other words I have 60 feet of chain Then nylon three strand, because I rarely anchor in less than 5 feet of water at low tide.. at high tide the depth is 15 And sixty feet of chain and 5 to 10 feet of nylon Is just about right. If I’m in deeper water than that my built in snubber just gets longer.

Also you should read about the hazards of having all chain in storm conditions. Not good. You may think the catenary caused by the weight of the chain sufficient to be a shock absorber, but reality proves that to not be the case.
I have towed many objects including barges without bridles...it just depends.

I also dont use bridles when anchoring. I use a single snubber. IF I need to let out more scope, the is more snubbed to let out too. If that gets too short, tie on another snubbed and let the other just go.

You have your opinions, but they are not universal.

As for windlasses taking a load...there sometimes is a pawl that eliminates gear loading. If the windlass is secure, direct pull is jerky but not necessarily any weaker than other parts of anchor tackle.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:51 PM   #48
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OMG, that’s between 6 and 7 posts per day!
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:58 PM   #49
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Whats that in reference to?

If it is about my number of posts.....you don't know anything about me so tread lightly if you are going there.
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Old 09-15-2020, 08:00 PM   #50
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OMG, that’s between 6 and 7 posts per day!
So now I need to read this forum more thoroughly every day, because I get a gem of knowledge from at least a couple of PSN posts every day.
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Old 09-18-2020, 03:30 AM   #51
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I agree with Frosty - vast majority of hawse hole arrangements I've seen appear to increase chafe, not decrease it. It looks shippy, but I think there's a penalty paid in functionality. Plus they are awkward to use. The hawse pipes with integral cleats (an ear on each side) are probably less chafe prone, but do not hold a hitch well because the line does not cross over itself across a cleat which is where much of the strength of a cleat hitch comes from.

The worst arrangement are fairleads over the caprail to an inboard cleat. Many sailboats have a large single cleat in the foredeck with fairleads near the stem. It looks nice, but I can think of no arrangement more prone to chafe.

I personally like large cleats mounted atop a caprail. They are super easy to use when docking and strong. They don't have the cool-look that hawse pipes do, but they work.

Peter
I know this thread has moved on a bit from here, but on the subject of a cleat hitch not working very well on a hawse hole with ears each side...is there actually a recommended knot for this situation that holds well and minimises chafing.
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Old 09-18-2020, 04:04 AM   #52
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I know this thread has moved on a bit from here, but on the subject of a cleat hitch not working very well on a hawse hole with ears each side...is there actually a recommended knot for this situation that holds well and minimises chafing.
For an anchor snubber, use a long dockline with the loop end over the cleat horns. The loop will pass through the hawse pipe and distribute chafe well. Often, the longest dockline on a boat are smaller diameter spring lines with some elasticity which is ideal for this application.

For docking, if you have hawse pipes with integral cleat horns but no bar connecting them, best I can think of is to use larger diameter lines where you need to have adjustability of the dockline aboard the boat vs on the dock. Large diameter lines do okay on bollards and such. For springlines (smaller diameter and more elastic), use the loop end on the cleat if possible.

Other ideas?
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Old 09-18-2020, 04:27 AM   #53
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For the anchor situation, I do use the approach of a loop over the hawse ears and that works very well. For dock lines I like the loop around the dock cleat so have the issue of what to do on the boat. Was wondering if attaching the dock line (typical 3 strand nylon) to a short length of (for example Dyneema) that had a loop might allow me to have a loop at the hawse hole. Perhaps joined via one of the thick rubber snubber arrangements that seem common nowadays.
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Old 09-18-2020, 06:31 AM   #54
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I have both, a bridle (two lines with a Mantus hook) and a snubber (one line). 99% of the time we use the bridle as it's a much lighter line giving more stretch (quiet with no jerks) and it holds the boat straight as we cleat it to the two forward cleats that are about 6 feet apart. We also often connect the bridle to different cleats on the boat; so if there's a swell sneaking around the point into our anchorage we might attach one line of the bridle to our mid-ship cleats to turn the boat sideways to be bow or stern into the swell. It's a longer and much lighter rope bridle than I would have as main rope anchor warp. If my bridle is cut by some coral the chain takes over the job of keeping us there. If the wind blows up during the night I simply attach my snubber line (much stronger) to both ends of the double bridle (then working as one line) and let out as much chain and snubber as I like. Simple and easy.
I have nice roller hawse pipes on the bow so I don't have a chafe issue on this ship, in the past I haven't been so lucky. I have had both chafe and coral cut through a bridle before but the chain just takes over the job and wakes me up with the grinding and jerking.
In Northern Australia and the South Pacific I could not sleep without an all chain rode holding us to the bottom. Coral cuts through any rope like a hot knife through butter. So a bridle and/or snubber give comfort, and the chain gives security.
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