Best Snubber for a Krogen 54 w/ Rocna 55kg and 3/8 chain

[Arthurc]

Thanks all for the thoughts, for now I made a 40ft 3 braid nylon Snubber, an eye spliced in one end that goes to a 6000lb soft shackle I just ran through the chain. Worked great last night and it got pretty windy.

On the chain size I am in the process of working with ideal to upgrade the wildcat to 1/2 or will replace the Windlass, unfortunately I don’t think either will happen before this summers trip.

 

[warren]

Glad you got your snubber sorted. And nice and long not a useless 6' snubber.
I was wondering when this snubber craze started? I started sailing & anchoring in the 60's with all chain rode. Years Later a combo chain and plated Nylon rode became more common. But never with a snubber. When did snubbers become necessary? What was so wrong with the years of safe and happy anchoring last century!
Whoops I probably hijacked you thread sorry if it's inappropriate .
Cheers Warren.

 

[foreverunderway]

Glad you got your snubber sorted. And nice and long not a useless 6' snubber.
I was wondering when this snubber craze started? I started sailing & anchoring in the 60's with all chain rode. Years Later a combo chain and plated Nylon rode became more common. But never with a snubber. When did snubbers become necessary? What was so wrong with the years of safe and happy anchoring last century!
Whoops I probably hijacked you thread sorry if it's inappropriate .
Cheers Warren.

In 1971 I was sitting on a friend's boat in Hanalei Bay, Kauai, Hawaii when the wind swung around and increased to a near gale. As I watched my boat pitch in the seas with the chain tight from the pick to the bow of the boat, the chain broke and went flying over the boat.
I managed to get aboard and get the engine going before she went aground and rode out the squall, waiting for it to subside and retrieve my family from the other boat.
I realized that I would never be able to carry chain strong enough to take the full weight of the boat under these conditions so, upon returning to Oahu, I spliced up a nylon snub line and have been using one ever since.
I have never had my chain break again, even in hurricanes!

I suppose they were in use in other parts of the world but I had never seen anyone use a snub line before, and they sure weren't common for some years thereafter.

 

[warren]

In 1971 I was sitting on a friend's boat in Hanalei Bay, Kauai, Hawaii when the wind swung around and increased to a near gale. As I watched my boat pitch in the seas with the chain tight from the pick to the bow of the boat, the chain broke and went flying over the boat.
I managed to get aboard and get the engine going before she went aground and rode out the squall, waiting for it to subside and retrieve my family from the other boat.
I realized that I would never be able to carry chain strong enough to take the full weight of the boat under these conditions so, upon returning to Oahu, I spliced up a nylon snub line and have been using one ever since.
I have never had my chain break again, even in hurricanes!

I suppose they were in use in other parts of the world but I had never seen anyone use a snub line before, and they sure weren't common for some years thereafter.

That was defiantly a scary situation. I guess you have though about it a lot but I assume your chain was too short as it should never come up tight like that , let alone break! I can see where the protection of the snubber worked for you.
Somehow a combo chain and Nylon rode makes more sense to me and way easier but I guess it does not work as well in a windlass ( I never had a windlass until recently) Thanks for reply cheers warren

 

[Delfin]

That was defiantly a scary situation. I guess you have though about it a lot but I assume your chain was too short as it should never come up tight like that , let alone break! I can see where the protection of the snubber worked for you.
Somehow a combo chain and Nylon rode makes more sense to me and way easier but I guess it does not work as well in a windlass ( I never had a windlass until recently) Thanks for reply cheers warren

All it takes for the chain to go taut is for the force of surge waves or wind to exceed the weight of the chain. That is just a few hundred pounds, so can happen quite easily under the right conditions.

 

[dhays]

That was defiantly a scary situation. I guess you have though about it a lot but I assume your chain was too short as it should never come up tight like that , let alone break! I can see where the protection of the snubber worked for you.

Somehow a combo chain and Nylon rode makes more sense to me and way easier but I guess it does not work as well in a windlass ( I never had a windlass until recently) Thanks for reply cheers warren

Three reasons for a snubber.

1. Provide some stretch in the rode. Not necessary if you have a combination rode as the nylon already provides that. Chain catenary often is not enough.

2. Take the pressure off the windlass. The windlass will live longer.

3. Give old sailors something to fiddle with.

 

[foreverunderway]

That was defiantly a scary situation. I guess you have that, about it a lot but I assume your chain was too short as it should never come up tight like that , let alone break!QUOTE]
No, actually I had plenty of scope out.
As far as the chain breaking, have a look at the:Working Load Limit (WLL) This is the number quoted in most catalogs and is the load on the chain that should not be exceeded in normal use. Is the weight of your boat greater than this number? If so, then your chain will break when it gets tight between the bow and the anchor, pretty easily.
There is a very expensive misconception about chain that costs many boaters a great deal of money. They waste their money on HT chain, thinking that because it is stronger than BBB, it is better. It still isn't strong enough to hold their boat in extreme circumstances and it is lighter per foot because the links are longer, so the catenary isn't as good as BBB.
Without a snub line, the catenary is the whole shebang of chain. So a lighter, but stronger chain is not a better thing if the strength of the chain is still not more than the weight of the boat.
For instance, my ½" BBB chain has a WWL of 4500#. HT ½" chain has a WLL of 9200#. My boat weighs 77,000#. Do you really think that 4500# would make any difference at all?

 

[foreverunderway]

Three reasons for a snubber.

1. Provide some stretch in the rode. Not necessary if you have a combination rode as the nylon already provides that. Chain catenary often is not enough.

2. Take the pressure off the windlass. The windlass will live longer.

3. Give old sailors something to fiddle with.

1. Stretch, yes. Not necessary if you have a combination rode; please see the pic below. This was somewhere in the middle of our chain when we brought it up. How long do you think your combination rode would have lasted, had it been fouled on the line part of your rode?
2. One should never secure the anchor rode to the windlass anyway. That's what chain stops are for.
3. Most of have plenty to do without adding to our chores list, thank you.

 

[DDW]

Snatching forces on chain with a boat surging backward in a swell can easily exceed the weight of the boat. You need to think of this in terms of the energy involved, rather than the instantaneous force. To raise a chain from its catenary to straight-line bar tight is only the weight of the chain x the distance raised as pointed out by Delfin. This is a very modest amount of energy absorbed, perhaps a few thousand ft-lbs. If the boat is surging backwards at a knot or three, it can be many times this. Once the chain goes straight line it is only the elasticity in the system that can absorb energy. This is the chain stretching, or the anchor moving on the seabed, or your windlass moving on the deck.

A snubber line absorbs energy proportional to it's stretchiness and proportional to the square of its length. For something stretchy like 8 plait or 3 strand that can be an enormous amount of energy. The length squared term is why a long, stretchy line is better than a short stiff one. Twice at long will absorb 4 times the energy. Put another way, to achieve the same energy absorption, a 20' snubber will need to be 1/4 the strength of a 40' snubber.

 

[Delfin]

Snatching forces on chain with a boat surging backward in a swell can easily exceed the weight of the boat. You need to think of this in terms of the energy involved, rather than the instantaneous force. To raise a chain from its catenary to straight-line bar tight is only the weight of the chain x the distance raised as pointed out by Delfin. This is a very modest amount of energy absorbed, perhaps a few thousand ft-lbs. If the boat is surging backwards at a knot or three, it can be many times this. Once the chain goes straight line it is only the elasticity in the system that can absorb energy. This is the chain stretching, or the anchor moving on the seabed, or your windlass moving on the deck.

A snubber line absorbs energy proportional to it's stretchiness and proportional to the square of its length. For something stretchy like 8 plait or 3 strand that can be an enormous amount of energy. The length squared term is why a long, stretchy line is better than a short stiff one. Twice at long will absorb 4 times the energy. Put another way, to achieve the same energy absorption, a 20' snubber will need to be 1/4 the strength of a 40' snubber.

Right on.

For the life of me, I can't remember the formula, but as far as I recall, the force exerted on the tackle is halved for every doubling of the distance to bring the vessel up short. So, if the chain is bar tight and a 100,000 # vessel is stopped in 2 inches, the force on the vessel is pretty nearly 100,000#, which explains snapping chains. If you add 6' of stretch due to a snub line, the force is 3,125#, which won't snap your chain. That's why they put collision barrels full of water on the roadways - to save lives by diminishing the impact force when hit. Same thing with a snub line.

 

[dhays]

1. Stretch, yes. Not necessary if you have a combination rode; please see the pic below. This was somewhere in the middle of our chain when we brought it up. How long do you think your combination rode would have lasted, had it been fouled on the line part of your rode?
2. One should never secure the anchor rode to the windlass anyway. That's what chain stops are for.
3. Most of have plenty to do without adding to our chores list, thank you.

1. Sounds like you are arguing that no one should have a combination rode. Good luck with that.

2. Chain stops relieve the pressure on the windlass. So while they have their uses for storing the anchor, and maybe setting the anchor, they don’t allow any stretch for anchoring.

3. Anchoring isn’t a chore for me. Washing and waxing are chores, most everything else is something I enjoy. Check out your Wind in the Willows quote again. ;-)

 

[FF]

For deep water anchoring 50/50 chain , then nylon seems the best combination.


For 200 deep water few would have aboard the weight of 600-700 ft of chain , but perhaps 200 ft of chain then a suitable nylon is easy to carry aboard.

 

[warren]

Twice at long will absorb 4 times the energy. Put another way, to achieve the same energy absorption, a 20' snubber will need to be 1/4 the strength of a 40' snubber.

DDW. You last sentence is so simple and makes great sense.
A good long snubber of lighter Nylon line is way better than a short chunky line.
Brilliant!

Skip Novack anchors his sailboat in remote places and has a short chunky style , it works but then he has really good ground tackle , you can watch him deploying in this video in high winds.
https://youtu.be/rYfoki6vW-M

Cheers Warren

 

[sunchaser]

Snatching forces on chain with a boat surging backward in a swell can easily exceed the weight of the boat. .

Interesting statement. I’ve never put a strain gauge on my rode to verify or debunk this thought. The chain markings on my rode are about 3,500 WLL and breaking limit 12, 000 lbs. The boat fully laden weighs about 58,000 lbs. Not yet has the chain snapped or worse yet the “flimsy” cleats or bollard holding my shirt snubbers been ripped out of the foredeck in challenging seas. Why not I wonder?

Possibly the answer lies partly in the chain cantenary but more importantly in the imperfect hold our anchors have on the bottom and drag - as noted by tests on this forum.

Or more likely the snatching forces as could be measured at bow during a big blow are well within the design rating of a prudent chain rode and far below the weight of the vessel.

 

[foreverunderway]

For deep water anchoring 50/50 chain , then nylon seems the best combination.
For 200 deep water few would have aboard the weight of 600-700 ft of chain , but perhaps 200 ft of chain then a suitable nylon is easy to carry aboard.

I would suggest you think very carefully before anchoring in very deep (200') water. Most of our windlasses do not have the power to bring that much chain and a decent anchor (never mind the 100+# or so of mud or muck on the anchor) straight up from 200'.
Should it get fouled at 125 feet plus, you will not be able to send someone down to free it, so in both these cases you might lose the whole rig.
Most folks I know consider seventy feet to be a max anchoring depth for a non commercial vessel. @ 200 feet of chain, that's on the fine edge an acceptable 3:1 scope, for calm water anchoring.

My #2 has 350' of 1 1/4" double braid nylon and 50' of chain, so in an emergency, I might get my pick to hold in 125 feet of water for a short time, in good weather.
On the other hand, having a really good anchor (in my opinion a Rocna) suitably sized for your rode is most important.
Case in point, on New Year's Eve we pulled into Clifton, Union Island, SVG, just to clear in. The place was as crowded as I had ever seen it with some moorings having 3 or 4 catamarans rafted up on them, and it seemed every available spot was taken.
I finally found a tiny hole that would do for our two-hour stay, so I dropped the gear in 40 feet of water. At 60' the chain fouled in the chain locker and there I was with 1:1.5 scope in 20 knots of wind, unable for the moment to let out any more chain or bring up my anchor. As I stood on the foredeck visualizing the path our 53' boat was going to take through this mass of anchored and moored boats, with 60' of anchor chain dragging along, she rounded up and sat perfectly on the gear. 1.5 scope in 20 knots and she was holding! Unbelievable!
We cleared the obstruction, let out the proper scope, and all was well. Had we had an oversized anchor with lighter chain, I fear the anchor would not have set. Had I been using any other anchor I'm sure it would not have held on that short scope.
The art of anchoring is about having an anchor and rode sized appropriately to each other and the boat. A 125 # anchor on 3/8" chain is a huge mismatch, just as bad as having a 25# anchor on 1" chain. It is a "team" effort, there is no star on the anchoring team.

 

[Delfin]

I would suggest you think very carefully before anchoring in very deep (200') water. Most of our windlasses do not have the power to bring that much chain and a decent anchor (never mind the 100+# or so of mud or muck on the anchor) straight up from 200'.
Should it get fouled at 125 feet plus, you will not be able to send someone down to free it, so in both these cases you might lose the whole rig.
Most folks I know consider seventy feet to be a max anchoring depth for a non commercial vessel. @ 200 feet of chain, that's on the fine edge an acceptable 3:1 scope, for calm water anchoring.

200' of 1/2 chain weighs 480 pounds, and about 350# in water. In my case, add a 176# anchor and 50# of gunk and even the smallest possible windlass I could have reasonably thought would do the job is more than sufficient.

Not saying anchoring in 200' of water is desirable, or even necessary but the limitation is not the ability of the typical trawler windlass to handle the job.