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Old 10-18-2020, 03:59 PM   #121
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Peter did you mean sarca or Excel in post #118?
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Old 10-18-2020, 04:25 PM   #122
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Peter did you mean sarca or Excel in post #118?
Good clarification. I think he tested both. Excel did better. But it's from memory.

Panope does a good job on anchor tests. Yea, I know. There are always people who. Figure out a reason not to believe any particular test, but given he's been doing so many for so long, I trust his overall judgment. At least in the absence of anything more authoritative.

Peter.
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Old 10-18-2020, 05:29 PM   #123
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As stated by MVWeebles/Peter, setting into weeds and grass which is often the norm in the 1000 Islands merits a different technique. Rather than drop and set as when in sand or the like, we drop, let out scope, and ignore for 15-20 minutes. Let the anchor wiggle and settle through to the bottom for a while, then give it a pull to assure it is set for the night. In any depth of water 20 feet and less we are letting out 80 feet of chain regardless, with a snubber let out to the waters surface.
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Old 10-18-2020, 05:50 PM   #124
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I don't have a lot of experience in weedy anchorages since I put the Vulcan on the boat, but so far, it seems to basically just ignore the weeds. Mind you, I haven't tried it in kelp mats. But in just tall, dense weeds, at least for my 73lb version, it seems to do just fine sinking / cutting through them and setting into the substrate below without having to sit around and wait.
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Old 10-18-2020, 05:58 PM   #125
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I do trust the tests for what they are, just not anyone's interpretation of the results...just like any other anchor test.

While some things are pretty obvious and may draw a consensus, but not everything......
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Old 10-18-2020, 06:20 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Mike Negley View Post
Some time ago after a serious hurricane many boats were lost due to the breaking of nylon anchor rodes where anti-chafing gear was used. One of the major rope manufactures did research on this and determined the chafing gear caused excess heat from the stretching back and forth of the nylon rode inside the chafing gear. Often boat owners were using rubber or plastic hose which did not allow ventilation.
Yes, you absolutely want chaffing gear that will allow water through it to cool the line, not hose.
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Old 10-18-2020, 06:56 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Mike Negley View Post
Some time ago after a serious hurricane many boats were lost due to the breaking of nylon anchor rodes where anti-chafing gear was used. One of the major rope manufactures did research on this and determined the chafing gear caused excess heat from the stretching back and forth of the nylon rode inside the chafing gear. Often boat owners were using rubber or plastic hose which did not allow ventilation.
IIRC, I think it was an MIT study. I bet I have it downloaded somewhere.
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Old 10-18-2020, 07:31 PM   #128
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Panope does a good job on anchor tears. Yea, I know. There are always people who. Figure out a reason not to believe any particular test, but given he's been doing so many for so long, I trust his overall judgment. At least in the absence of anything more authoritative.

Peter.
From a different point of view:
If the tests don't mimic the conditions you will anchor in, how useful will they be to you? A while back, Fortress did anchor testing with the parameters to make their anchor look good, soft Chesapeake bay mud. If your anchor is mostly in the weeds or hard pact bottom, the results from that test will be almost worthless (certainly not going to give you the best anchor for weeds and hard pact bottom). If you're anchoring is less than 25' and you generally scope 7:1, a short scope test at an abnormally high speed is also likely of little value.

Ted
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Old 10-18-2020, 08:45 PM   #129
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Part of the problem is every anchor manufacturer has some sort of credible test that proclaims their anchor the best. 15+ years ago West Marine and Practical Sailor both did independent tests, but they were of limited value because the conditions were narrow - usually a beach with a center console with twin OBs pulling.

Which is why I like Panope. He has done hundreds of tests and is his own biggest critic. He found a cobble seabed because he came to realize his conditions were too narrow.

Ted, to your point, no anchor is perfect for all conditions. My question to you is how do you know what the seabed is until you test it? How do you know your anchor will set until you back-down on it? Trust a chart or Active Captain reviews? Only anchor in the same locations, knowing the Chesapeake is all mud therefore all is good?

Without backing down, how do you know what the bottom is, and that your anchor is the right choice?

Peter
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Old 10-18-2020, 08:57 PM   #130
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Anchoring here is simple with seabed of heavy, sticky mud.
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Old 10-18-2020, 08:58 PM   #131
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In general, tests like short scope and fast reversals and such will show worse performance than longer scope, slower reversals, etc. So it's like seeing the worst case and knowing that you'll typically be able to achieve better in the real world.
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Old 10-18-2020, 09:04 PM   #132
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Anchoring here is simple with seabed of heavy, sticky mud.
As it is here, except for the one time near a waterfall where I could feel the anchor skipping along the bottom. You just never know...
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Old 10-18-2020, 09:21 PM   #133
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This time what I noticed was that many of the anchors in the cobble stone seafloor had a very difficult time standing up w the fluke/flukes horizontal. This is why I think so many had trouble setting. Their flukes were oriented sideways.

And related to that the anchor that I thought may dig down on one fluke and stick the other one straight up ran much more horizontal than so many others. It’s like predicting the weather.
And perhaps this is one of the reasons the SARCA sets so well as it stood up more than most all the others. Also related to sideways dynamics I predicted that Claw anchors probably not rotate much of the time and hold boats overnight w only one fluke having good penetration. That’s exactly what it did. Often we see that on beach pulls too.


I thought often that you’re old Port Townsend site was far too easy for the anchors.
One of the several reasons I didn’t make it over there thinking I’d just be duping what Steve did. But the way he did it is monumentally supreme.
Sure glad you’re at it still Steve.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:31 PM   #134
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We find a suitable anchoring location, check water depth and use hand signals from the person on the bow running the windlass to the person at the helm. Index finger, slow ahead pointing out direction.
Clenched fist neutral.
Thumb reverse.
We lower the anchor to the bottom with the boat motionless. Slowly backing, thumb, clenched fist, laying out the required chain length based on the depth and expected weather. Clenched fist and thumb, using the slow motion and weight of the boat to stretch out the chain till it comes out of the water tight and set. Mark the location with the gps, radar and visual sightings on the shore.
Make drinks and relax occasionally checking for dragging.
Weighing anchor using hand signals to slowly retrieve the anchor chain using wash down hose. If the anchor has a lot of fouling usually mud I leave the anchor below the water surface and use the slow ahead motion of the boat to wash and dislodge the mud and or the wash down hose solid fresh water stream.
The Manatee has 300 gallon fresh water tankage so I use fresh water to avoid chain locker BO !
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Old 10-19-2020, 12:00 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Negley View Post
Some time ago after a serious hurricane many boats were lost due to the breaking of nylon anchor rodes where anti-chafing gear was used. One of the major rope manufactures did research on this and determined the chafing gear caused excess heat from the stretching back and forth of the nylon rode inside the chafing gear. Often boat owners were using rubber or plastic hose which did not allow ventilation.
I often wondered about that, and it was one other factor that to me always made an all-chain rode preferable where technically possible, and where not, whether using no chafe protection and just accepting some timber gun'l sacrificial wear was preferable..?

Wow, Just watched Steve's full video. No real surprise to me Sarca rules..! They are both Sarcas, Eric, the first, with roll-bar, is the Super Sarca, the one without is the Sarca Excel. Both went well, as expected, however, one thing that did strike me with most of the test runs was that it seemed to be moving a bit faster than ideal, with the flukes sort of rolling or bouncing over the round rocks, and not having time enough to dig in between them - until eventually they did. I realise Steve could not go any slower than idle reverse, however, as Peter (MV Weebles) hinted, it tended to illustrate how the sit and let it drag for a bit before testing a back-down, instead of an immediate reverse thrust, is probably the best way to set virtually any anchor, but especially these next gen ones, and why many of us do exactly that - well, did, in my case.
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Old 10-19-2020, 05:50 AM   #136
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I usually have a good idea what the bottom is like from experience and research.

Guaranteed? Nope but as pointed out, powering gives some info, but no guarantees either.

As pointed out many times, not sure there is a "never power set crowd", because in my case I did say there are times it is used to verify bottom conditions, situation, etc.

If I gathered from this latest video, as I fast forwarded a bit....did any anchor hold really well past 500 lbs straight line pull? Point being that just moving the anchor inches either way could result in the tip hitting a soft spot or rock that could affect its grab. Then a slight back and forth motion at anchor could have worked any of those anchors loose. While it is an informative test and I thank Steve for the wonderful picture is worth 1000 words videos, ibut t is by no means conclusive. Do it 20 times and get some statistical performance repeats to make me believe to the next level.

Plus, if I has an anchor drag as long as any of those did in the test...probably would go to my backup choice anchorage. Again experience in region and in general helps with committing to a particular anchorage.
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:11 AM   #137
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I usually have a good idea what the bottom is like from experience and research.

Guaranteed? Nope but as pointed out, powering gives some info, but no guarantees either.

As pointed out many times, not sure there is a "never power set crowd", because in my case I did say there are times it is used to verify bottom conditions, situation, etc.

If I gathered from this latest video, as I fast forwarded a bit....did any anchor hold really well past 500 lbs straight line pull? Point being that just moving the anchor inches either way could result in the tip hitting a soft spot or rock that could affect its grab. Then a slight back and forth motion at anchor could have worked any of those anchors loose. While it is an informative test and I thank Steve for the wonderful picture is worth 1000 words videos, ibut t is by no means conclusive. Do it 20 times and get some statistical performance repeats to make me believe to the next level.

Plus, if I has an anchor drag as long as any of those did in the test...probably would go to my backup choice anchorage. Again experience in region and in general helps with committing to a particular anchorage.
I too fast forwarded. Steve's closing comments were instructive and address your point of no anchor really knocking it out of the park. He more or less said if you decide to anchor on a rocky bottom, mind the weather forecast and set a loud anchor alarm or better yet, also have crew stand an anchor watch.

Good to see usable information out there. I watch a few cruising channels which are for the most part empty calories.

Peter
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:15 AM   #138
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Probably why it remains called after all these years..." the ART of anchoring".....
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:54 AM   #139
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Ted, to your point, no anchor is perfect for all conditions. My question to you is how do you know what the seabed is until you test it? How do you know your anchor will set until you back-down on it? Trust a chart or Active Captain reviews? Only anchor in the same locations, knowing the Chesapeake is all mud therefore all is good?

Without backing down, how do you know what the bottom is, and that your anchor is the right choice?

Peter
Drop the hook and see what happens.
My Rocna hasn't failed in any conditions so far including Chesapeake bay mud. I generally use anchorages protected from wind if I think the bottom will be soupy mud. Most of where I anchor is sandy or sticky mud. Less rocky areas on the East coast until you get to New England or the Great Lakes. The Rocna does a stellar job penetrating hard pack bottom and vegetation, providing you use a proper scope (7:1) and aren't trying to anchor at 5 knots. My success is based on picking good anchorages, a good anchor, and ample scope. I don't switch anchors based on expected bottoms. As mentioned previously, I rarely anchor in more than 20' of water. With my 350' of chain, it makes more sense to me to flatten the scope than switch anchors. If I were concerned about holding, I'd rather have a hundred feet of chain on the bottom that the boat can barely move as opposed to a 3.5:1 scope on an anchor I almost never use.

It's an accepted fact that on some percentage of reversals, the anchor is going to break free. I pick anchorage, and scope based on the anchor being able to reset itself. Since you lack the confidence in your anchor setting itself without backing down, what's your plan for the inevitable break out?

Are you dodging or answering the above question?

Ted
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:20 AM   #140
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Totally agree drop, deploy and wait is becoming the more common protocol has people gain more experience with the new anchors. However, would comment the old rule of having someone on the foredeck watching and controlling the anchoring remains best practice in my mind. Except where’s there’s sediment you can see the actual drop. Throughout the Caribbean you can see the bottom at 30’ without trouble. Nexgens do lousy with weed or grass. You can easily drop into that small patch of sand if you’re leaning over the bow and watching. Even up to Maine where water visibility is nil you can stop chain from coming out put a foot on the chain and press. You know right off if it’s skipping. You feel it. So although we’ve had a remote still think it’s best to go up to the foredeck to anchor.
Also think there’s something to be said to using shorter scopes with the new anchors. Think other than catenary effect going more than 5:1 doesn’t add as much to holding power as it did with the older designs. Boats are expensive. Dragging is quite dangerous. Having a rode break even more so. Continue to believe there’s no reason to not having all chain on any vessel over ~30’
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