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09-29-2020, 02:53 PM
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#101
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Guru
City: San Diego
Vessel Model: Helmsman 4304
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 2,005
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When I was working on sport fishing boats we would drop and pull the anchor two to five times per day, all week long, all Summer long. I was just the young kid on the bow, but every Captain I worked for set the anchor with some astern thrust. Again, not questioning what others do because it appears to work for them, but that’s how I was taught so I run with it.
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09-29-2020, 02:54 PM
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#102
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Guru
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,946
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Have less than a decades experience, so take the following at your own risk.
BC's north coast has mostly mud/muck to deal with. My wife backs us down while I pay out the rode (chain + nylon) and I keep a hand on the rode after it's tied off. My wife keeps in reverse until I tell her to stop.
You can feel the anchor set through the rode.
Only once did I feel the anchor skip along the bottom (in front of a waterfall so it was probably sand on a slope and not mud) so we anchored somewhere else.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" MurrayM
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09-29-2020, 03:42 PM
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#103
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Guru
City: Adelaide
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,218
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I'm about 50/50 with backing down to set the anchor.
Rather than following any procedures to the letter, I prefer to assess the conditions and the risks, and implement suitable mitigation measures.
I prefer to let the wind due the work, but on a calm day I'll use reverse power. I sometimes do it just before dark when the wind has decided which way it will blow. To me it makes more sense than setting the anchor under conditions on arrival.
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09-29-2020, 03:53 PM
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#104
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Senior Member
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Conundrum
Vessel Model: Nordlund 63' Pilothouse
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles
In the old days, cruisers would discuss their anchoring particulars with newcomers. Do those types of exchanges still take place? Seems like a courteous thing to do.
Peter
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I agree. And my boating friends and I definitely will hail or yell out at people when we enter an anchorage to find out how everyone is set near the area we have targeted. If I can't I will set then dinghy over to introduce myself and ask about my closest neighbors' sets. Removes some of potential for future tension if something does happen. That simple effort shows you care and you are trying to adapt to the anchorage as it sits. If someone comes in after me and doesn't extend the same courtesy I will go talk to them for the same reasons. They know my set and as the last in they get the lay of the land.
Especially critical during slack and/or times of little to no wind. It's really hard to determine where anchors are when everyone is sitting all wonky in calm conditions. As it has been said, first in, last out when someone has to move.
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09-29-2020, 03:55 PM
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#105
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Guru
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Sea Sanctuary
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4588
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 5,017
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OK, enough overthinking this. Here is how I do it.
Pull up to the spot I want to drop anchor, point up current or upwind, check depth, pay out the anchor, chain (and rode) for a 3-5 to 1 scope and go for a drink while watching to ensure the anchor has set and boat remains put.
__________________
SteveK
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Sea Sanctuary-new to me 1992 Bayliner 4588
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09-29-2020, 04:04 PM
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#106
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Senior Member
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Conundrum
Vessel Model: Nordlund 63' Pilothouse
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M
"A better option it to create a single rode with multiple anchors in a single line anchor to anchor so wayward boats can slide by."
This is the first time I've seen this advice in print, which has been our go-to solution for high winds for decades.
It works!
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Interesting feedback that you've seen this work in practice. I haven't done it, we are rarely in more than 25 kt winds tbh, but have read about it and some of the cruising blogs/books I have read had a less than favorable take on tandem in line. Mostly because they stated it was difficult (impossible?) to get the pull distributed across the two anchors. Meaning that when you really need it then only one anchor is load bearing. Assuming there's a larger and a smaller anchor in the setup, if it's the larger of your anchors and you don't drag then it would posit that it would've taken the load regardless. If it's the smaller, and it breaks free then you are relying on the larger anyway. So many just say oversize and use your largest storm anchor from the get go and don't deal with the complexity of multiple anchors. <shrug>
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09-29-2020, 07:36 PM
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#107
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Guru
City: Miami River
Vessel Name: Gotcha
Vessel Model: Grand Banks. Heritage. 54
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,988
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I frequently read (in this topic also) that many boaters use 3-5 scope. I find this strange as I was taught many decades ago to use a 7-1 scope. I usually go with that for an overnight anchorage, occasionally I’ll use 10-1 if I’m expecting a blow of 25 knots or more. I will use 5-1 for a lunch in light winds (under 15 knots).
I’m still not ready to overnight with a 3/5 -1 scope. Am I wrong?
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09-29-2020, 07:43 PM
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#108
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Guru
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Sea Sanctuary
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4588
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 5,017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsfish
I frequently read (in this topic also) that many boaters use 3-5 scope. I find this strange as I was taught many decades ago to use a 7-1 scope. I usually go with that for an overnight anchorage, occasionally I’ll use 10-1 if I’m expecting a blow of 25 knots or more. I will use 5-1 for a lunch in light winds (under 15 knots).
I’m still not ready to overnight with a 3/5 -1 scope. Am I wrong?
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No, you are not wrong, carry on, as you were. If you were anchoring near me we could talk about why you would go 7>1 when I am 3>1. But since that is not the case don't worry about it. every location needs its own special attention, experience. I once anchored 5>1 with a boat on either side and the wind picked up, anchor dragged, let out line, good for a while, wind got stronger, sent the other boats away to anchor on their own. Each anchorage and condition needs a separate decision, or you could always go with 7>1 or 10>1 and never have to worry about decisions.
__________________
SteveK
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Sea Sanctuary-new to me 1992 Bayliner 4588
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09-29-2020, 07:51 PM
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#109
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Guru
City: Nanaimo
Vessel Name: former owner of "Pilitak"
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 37
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,703
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It really depends on your entire ground tackle system, where you anchor (protection from wind and waves), bottom type, depth, currents, and expected weather.
I usually pick very protected anchorages with good sticky mud bottoms. I have a great anchor that I trust (from experience) and use almost always an all chain rode (only when really deep do I go into the rope rode). I usually set out 5-1 scope based on the depth at high tide taking into account the height of the anchor roller above the water. Usually we anchor in less than 40 foot depths, sometimes just less than 20 (at that depth the low tide depth would be about 8 feet). We have anchored in over 80 feet of water using only about 3 to 4-1 scope as having out over 250 feet of chain with a well set anchor, in a good mud bottom and light winds predicted seemed like the right set up for those conditions.
I would also add that it can depend on the characteristics of your boat. Windage, weight, how it "behaves" when laying to an anchor in the wind, etc. Some boats really "sail around" back and forth putting a larger strain on the anchor, so maybe more scope would be a good idea then. If my rode was mostly rope, or if I was expecting big winds, I would go with 7-1. All of this, is just what I do, and does not make it right for others, but it has worked well for me for well over 1000 nights at anchor.
__________________
Tom
Nanaimo, BC
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09-29-2020, 08:03 PM
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#110
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsfish
I frequently read (in this topic also) that many boaters use 3-5 scope. I find this strange as I was taught many decades ago to use a 7-1 scope. I usually go with that for an overnight anchorage, occasionally I’ll use 10-1 if I’m expecting a blow of 25 knots or more. I will use 5-1 for a lunch in light winds (under 15 knots).
I’m still not ready to overnight with a 3/5 -1 scope. Am I wrong?
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As a person who pushed-back pretty hard on this thread, I'll chime in with my lesson's learned based on research prompted by the folks to whom I pushed back.
Based on several tests on scope/set/re-set; and anchor manufacturer's recommendations (which I believe are tempered by lawyers):
1. The newer scoop-style anchors are significantly better than their predecessors such as the Delta and Bruce; which were significant improvements over the previous stalwart - the CQR/Plow.
2. These anchors are tested and hold well at 3.5:1 scope for normal bottoms. They also reset well - often within 1 anchor length.
3. Power-setting. Anchor manufacturers recommend nosing-up into the wind/current, dropping anchor, and gently reversing direction. Some state wind/current push; but light reverse is more frequently recommended. This is the single biggest change for me - I will reduce (but not eliminate) my power-set.
4. I found no evidence that an anchor will set itself without some reverse-pull on it. I continue to disagree with the posts that suggest zero-set is a good practice, but as I said above, I will use a more relaxed approach to setting an anchor ---- but will always (ALWAYS) set an anchor. If for some reason it won't set, I continue to want to know an anchor does not set when I anchor, not middle of the night.
5. When might an anchor fail to set? Seaweed or grass - it simply slides across the surface. Some anchors penetrate better than others. If you believe Panope (which I do), the Ultra is a close leader of the very excellent spoon-style anchors (I have a Rocna Vulcan). I will add a Fortress to my arsenal.
6. For soft mud (by the responses, I suppose parts of the Chesapeake), you cannot beat a fluke-style anchor such as a Fortress. They are easy to disassemble and a spare rope/chain rode is also easy to carry.
Personally, I will anchor with 5:1 scope in most non-storm situations. For me, that is a reduction from my previous practice of 7:1. I will reduce my power-set to more of a firm nudge based on this discussion, and for that, I thank the vociferous posts. That said, based on the numerous recommendations from respected sources (including the anchor manufacturers) and the lack of anything beyond anecdotal statements on threads like this, I will continue to strongly advocate people develop a habit and practice of setting their anchors, but at a reduced pull-level.
Thank you all - I did learn a lot on this thread
Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
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09-29-2020, 08:13 PM
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#111
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Guru
City: Nanaimo
Vessel Name: former owner of "Pilitak"
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 37
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,703
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Just to clarify what I mean by "setting" my anchor, we back down very slowly (in and out of gear), and slowly take up slack in the rode using the same method. Once the rode is pulled tight, we use reverse at idle to ensure we are set and not continuing to move back. We do have 330 hp after all
__________________
Tom
Nanaimo, BC
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09-29-2020, 08:15 PM
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#112
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Guru
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7,554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsfish
I frequently read (in this topic also) that many boaters use 3-5 scope. I find this strange as I was taught many decades ago to use a 7-1 scope. I usually go with that for an overnight anchorage, occasionally I’ll use 10-1 if I’m expecting a blow of 25 knots or more. I will use 5-1 for a lunch in light winds (under 15 knots).
I’m still not ready to overnight with a 3/5 -1 scope. Am I wrong?
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In general, the bigger the anchor, the less scope you can get away with (as you have more excess holding power to sacrifice). Shallower water also needs more scope for a variety of reasons.
But in general, that's part of why I hang on it in reverse with a little throttle. It's enough pull that I know it'll hold at least 30 kts of wind at the current scope in the current bottom. If it doesn't hold solidly, I either need more scope, or the bottom sucks.
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09-29-2020, 10:19 PM
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#113
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,333
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Steve/SV Panope reported some surprising holds while serially shortening scope on some of the "more modern" anchors. Not that I`d want to try 1.5:1, but it suggests reliable holding at less than 7:1. But, each to his own, we have to be comfortable with what we do.
"Power setting" could mean lots of things to lots of people. I believe in "testing" the set, by several applications of modest reverse power. But only after I believe the anchor has set,for which I use wind/current or if absent light reverse throttle, to get the boat moving backwards.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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09-29-2020, 10:58 PM
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#114
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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I almost always anchor at less than 6-1.
And in benign weather 2-1 w a small anchorage or bigger w too many boats.
And I almost never use an anchor that dosn’t have a reputation of having above average short scope performance. Why should I? Most any anchor will hold fairly well at 7-1+ scope but quite a few anchors have an edge there.
Murray wrote;
“BC's north coast has mostly mud/muck to deal with. My wife backs us down while I pay out the rode (chain + nylon) and I keep a hand on the rode after it's tied off. My wife keeps in reverse until I tell her to stop.
You can feel the anchor set through the rode.”
I do that and agree. I’ve never used a chain rode but w nylon line one can “feel” a lot of information from how the line behaves.
__________________
Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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09-30-2020, 03:54 AM
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#115
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TF Site Team
City: Ex-Brisbane, (Australia), now Bribie Island, Qld
Vessel Name: Now boatless - sold 6/2018
Vessel Model: Had a Clipper (CHB) 34
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soo-Valley
OK, enough overthinking this. Here is how I do it.
Pull up to the spot I want to drop anchor, point up current or upwind, check depth, pay out the anchor, chain (and rode) for a 3-5 to 1 scope and go for a drink while watching to ensure the anchor has set and boat remains put.
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That's pretty much what I used to do with my S-Sarca as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver
I tend to anchor in less than 20' of water, drop the Rocna and 7:1 chain over, add the snubber and call it good. If I'm expecting more than 25 knots, I'll do more.
Ted
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Ditto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles
Surprised at comments that some folks don't always back-down when setting their anchor. Honestly, I thought that was a normal best-practice that was done as a matter of course.
Is this an east-coast vs west-coast thing?
Peter
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Neither. Happens everywhere with folk who, by experience, have confidence in their rig. The nextgen anchors will be mainly what you find these folk have.
__________________
Pete
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09-30-2020, 06:32 AM
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#116
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Guru
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsfish
I frequently read (in this topic also) that many boaters use 3-5 scope. I find this strange as I was taught many decades ago to use a 7-1 scope. I usually go with that for an overnight anchorage, occasionally I’ll use 10-1 if I’m expecting a blow of 25 knots or more. I will use 5-1 for a lunch in light winds (under 15 knots).
I’m still not ready to overnight with a 3/5 -1 scope. Am I wrong?
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The takeaway on scope with nextgen anchors has a lot to do with water depth. Having gone by you a couple of times at anchor, the depth of the water you're in is inappropriate for short scope anchoring, IMO. If anchoring in 40'+ of water, I can understand the physics change, especially with all chain. But anchoring in 10 to 15' on 3:1 over night, makes absolutely no sense. 30 to 45' of rode is ridiculously short, even with a snubber. Going 7:1 only adds 40 to 60' of additional chain, swing radius, and retrieval in the morning. I can't imagine anchoring with less than 70' of chain in the water.
Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
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09-30-2020, 10:06 AM
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#117
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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Peter wrote;
“Neither. Happens everywhere with folk who, by experience, have confidence in their rig. The nextgen anchors will be mainly what you find these folk have.”
Many people had a lot of confidence many things that failed. And the bottom location within the anchorage could easily vary enough to set up a failure. Setting isn’t a sure thing either but it’s the best thing we have to a sure thing. IMO
__________________
Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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10-18-2020, 07:54 AM
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#118
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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Interesting update from Steve on Panope. 38 min video comparing over a dozen anchors in cobble over sand bottom, a difficult bottom to set. For those who are adherents of not power setting your anchor, might be worth a watch of the entire video to see how few anchors set.
Sarca, Spade, and Rocna Vulcan did well. Mantus and Ultra are middle of this pack (both do very well in sand), Forfjord and Northill fisherman's anchor is not great. Fortress and CQR are worthless for this bottom.
Emphasis is that this is not a common bottom. But interesting to see the setting comparison.
https://youtu.be/HngP1Z0LYoo
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
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10-18-2020, 09:42 AM
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#119
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Guru
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles
Interesting update from Steve on Panope...For those who are adherents of not power setting your anchor, might be worth a watch of the entire video to see how few anchors set...
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Yup. You can feel the anchor skipping along the bottom if your hand is on the rode (ours is chain/nylon) while backing down, and it's obvious when it sets.
Me-thinks larger anchors on bigger boats would do better on this type of bottom, where the longer length of the anchors face would be able to get into sand below the rocks.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" MurrayM
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10-18-2020, 11:43 AM
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#120
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Veteran Member
City: Safety Harbor
Vessel Name: Yankee Peddler
Vessel Model: Grand Banks Eastbay
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 42
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The dangers of nylon rodes with anti-chaffing
Some time ago after a serious hurricane many boats were lost due to the breaking of nylon anchor rodes where anti-chafing gear was used. One of the major rope manufactures did research on this and determined the chafing gear caused excess heat from the stretching back and forth of the nylon rode inside the chafing gear. Often boat owners were using rubber or plastic hose which did not allow ventilation.
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