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Old 09-25-2020, 08:12 AM   #21
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My experience is limited to the entire east coast, Bahamas, leewards, windwards and Canadian maritime. I have no experience anywhere in the Pacific Ocean, Indian Ocean nor Med.
Any decent chart or cruising guide tells you what the bottom is like. We carry cruising guides. We keep them current. 80-90% of the time we anchor someplace we’ve never anchored before. We always look at the cruising guide to determine what holding is like and where’s best to anchor to avoid swell, noise, wakes, crime etc. We always circle our prospective anchoring spot.
Our routine in sand or firm mud is exactly as several posts have said. Light back down at ~1500 , relax, then firm backdown at ~2100 for 3-5 minutes. We then either dive the anchor or look at it from the dinghy. We are not infrequently in places where dragging means losing the boat so are not cavalier about it.
What I posted above only refers to loose mud. Similarly use a different technique in grass. Here the issue is to catch a non grassy area. You can be wrong if technique isn’t spot on. A good clump of grass can entangle your anchor causing you to think you have a good set. Hours later as the anchor eventually cuts through the grass off you go. Have gotten hit by other vessels when this has occurred. God bless rub rails.
To get around this we put the bride out as forward as possible on the foredeck. She spots a clear place or nearly clear place. Using her directions the drop is at the far end so in slow reverse you drag across that open spot. Do this with 10’ to 15’ plus depth of water out. As soon as you feel the anchor dig let out your desired length of chain under light or no pressure as you back down. Then gentle backdown for at least 3-5m . She’ll keep a foot on the chain and I’ll pay attention. If either of use feel a “skip” pull it up and start again.
Rocnas, Mantus and the like with a roll bar pull out and reset rapidly with a major current or wind shift. It’s important they are truly buried in the middle of the clear patch. Spades do better on resets behaving more like the old CQRs coming up but not totally out. Would never go back to a CQR as the Rocna gives a good set quicker and with fewer needs to reset.
When around coral heads (Caribbean) or in with rocks (Maine) you get a different problem. You can get under a rock or into a coral head and have too good a set. Then it’s a bear to get the thing out when you want to leave. We’ve taken to tying a dyneema line into the hole in the back of the anchor. Just about every anchor has one although it’s position may vary. We tie that line to a fender and let it float. Then with me in the dinghy and her at the helm I use the 15 hp of the dinghy to dislodge the anchor. Have had friends destroy their windlass trying to use that to pull up the anchor. The technique is much the same as getting a fouled lure off the bottom when fishing. Once the anchor is free I return to the boat and we together do our usual thing.
Anchoring is just applying your common sense. Having situational awareness and understanding the risks involved. There are many treatises about it but in the end it’s about having a brain and using it. Too many have gotten away with bad practices. Until they don’t. Many have a one way or the highway attitude ignoring the need to be flexible in approaching this extremely important task.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:16 AM   #22
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If I were short (IMO) scoping or using a farming implement for an anchor, I would maybe feel the need to do more.

I look at it this way. If the anchor comes out of the bottom on a tidal current or wind reversal in the middle of the night, the anchor is going to have to reset itself without my help, and there won't be any backing down to set it either.

Ted
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:33 AM   #23
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If I were short (IMO) scoping or using a farming implement for an anchor, I would maybe feel the need to do more.

I look at it this way. If the anchor comes out of the bottom on a tidal current or wind reversal in the middle of the night, the anchor is going to have to reset itself without my help, and there won't be any backing down to set it either.

Ted
Implies there was a 'set' in the first place. So there are a couple other reasons to set an anchor - one being to align to current/foreseeable conditions (wind, current). Second being to ensure the road doesn't pile-up atop the anchor. Given your deep knowledge, I'm sure you accommodate for those items, but there are few things more disconcerting than watching a large boat with a small anchor steam into an anchorage and drop an anchor and free-wheel a bunch of rode. Then crank-up a blender with Celia Cruz blaring on the speaker.

Someone once told me that in the Med, you should try to never anchor down-wind of a French boat. Not sure why.

Peter
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:46 AM   #24
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In the Caribbean it’s for 3 reasons
They seems to actually enjoy a good argument at loud volume. Often with their wife at 2 am. It’s the wife’s voice that penetrates the hull and wakes you.
You get tired of looking at sagging naked boobs and hairy ball sacks. Once on a boat clothes seem optional to French folks of all ages.
They aren’t very friendly at all.
Above said tongue in cheek. Generally speaking they’re highly competent sailors. Have made multiple strong friendships with French borne cruisers.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:56 AM   #25
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Setting the anchor

I've copied verbiage from my anchoring file that concerns my anchoring experiences. This information represents many years of anchoring in Puget Sound, BC and SE Alaska bays.

The short summary, is that I almost never test the initial set by continuing to pull on the rode. But, this requires some technique to provide a verifiable and acceptable initial set.


Deploying and Setting the Anchor: On WESTERLY, deploying the primary anchor and rode requires the operator to be at the bow (See ANCHOR WINCH OPERATIONS for details). The operator reverses the engine prior to the desired position, and then goes to the bow to deploy the anchor when stern way begins. After letting out enough rode to place the anchor on the bottom, the operator engages a soft brake and returns to the pilothouse to place the engine in neutral. After returning to the bow, the remaining stern way (around 1 knot max) is used to set the anchor by adjusting the winch brake in conjunction with the desired rode length. Advantages of this scenario include: Being able to visually see that the anchor position is acceptable prior to deploying the anchor, observing and controlling the rode during deployment so that stern way and rode deployment are balanced, making sure the desired amount of rode is deployed, observing/feeling the rode while the anchor sets, and visually observing the suitability of the boat position when the anchor is set and the rode is stretched out. This scenario provides the best possible feedback as to the accuracy and quality of the initial set. [To be sure, it takes some experience to balance stern way and brake resistance with remaining rode. This technique is appropriate for all anchors needing some pull on the rode in order to engage the fluke(s) with the bottom.]

After the Initial Set: You can reverse the propulsion engine(s) continuously if desired to further test the set, but this procedure has almost never been performed based on the success of the deployment and setting procedures outlined in the preceding paragraph. [Because the anchor continues to sink into the bottom (especially soft mud) for some time after the initial set, continuously backing the engine may eliminate the possibility of an improved set given some time to "soak in". On the other hand, if an anchor is able to achieve a good initial set after continuously reversing propulsion engine(s), then it's still a good set, but probably wasted effort. Unfortunately, it is common to see boaters using this technique dragging their anchor around the bay trying to get it to set. After being unable to get their anchor to set, many do not seem to recognize that the geometry must be changed to achieve a set in the same bottom conditions (anchor in shallower water, or increase the scope, or both). In addition, speed of the boat in setting the anchor can depend on the anchor design. Initial deployment speeds of no more than 1 knot, and final setting speed of under .5 knots are good speeds for the Delta/Rocna/WESTERLY.

Naturally, we have observed several interesting situations over the years. One situation concerned a 50' Grand Banks attempting to anchor in Silva Bay with a CQR at a scope that the owner had comfort with at other anchorages. After watching him drag around the bay several times in reverse, he ended up passing by fairly close and we had a discussion that he should just stretch out his rode and let the anchor sit for awhile before pulling on it. He did so, and after a couple of hours, started his engines and reversed only to find he was well set. Cost him a bottle of wine!

It is appropriate to comment here on the design of many recreational boats (both sail and power) where design and/or conditions may make it impractical and even unsafe for the operator to be on the bow at the anchor windlass/winch when deploying an anchor. In addition, the availability of remote switches, rode counters, reversing windlasses/winches, and self-deploying anchors mean that many operators of these boats do not, in fact, ever go to the bow to deploy an anchor. Obviously, they need to mitigate the lack of visual and hands-on feedback by closely observing what they are able to observe: Making a visual adjustment to determine that the anchor position is suitable, carefully monitoring stern way in order to keep deployment and vessel speed in balance, watching carefully for the desired rode mark at the bow roller (or trusting an electronic rode counter), and maybe/maybe not being able to see where the rode enters the water that would provide visual feedback about the quality of the initial set. Considering the limitations with this type of anchoring arrangement, reversing the engine(s) to confirm a good set may be helpful (at the risk of creating other problems - see preceding paragraphs). Retrieving the anchor may also require the operator at the bow to wash the chain and anchor.

If you are unsure of the quality of the initial set, increase scope until you are comfortable with the set, and then shorten scope if appropriate. Consider letting the anchor “soak in” for awhile before testing the set. It's important to note that anchoring studies have shown that some anchors in certain bottom conditions may not completely set under high rode forces, and in the case of veering winds, may break free and re-set at some distance from the original location. You will need to keep this in mind in order to become comfortable with the anchor position given bottom and weather conditions, and other anchored vessels and obstructions. [Yes, sleep/comfort at anchor depends a lot on experience.]
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:34 AM   #26
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If the anchor comes out of the bottom on a tidal current or wind reversal in the middle of the night, the anchor is going to have to reset itself without my help, and there won't be any backing down to set it either.

Ted
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Implies there was a 'set' in the first place. So there are a couple other reasons to set an anchor - one being to align to current/foreseeable conditions (wind, current). Second being to ensure the road doesn't pile-up atop the anchor. Given your deep knowledge, I'm sure you accommodate for those items, but there are few things more disconcerting than watching a large boat with a small anchor steam into an anchorage and drop an anchor and free-wheel a bunch of rode. Then crank-up a blender with Celia Cruz blaring on the speaker.

Someone once told me that in the Med, you should try to never anchor down-wind of a French boat. Not sure why.

Peter
Peter, address my point. If your anchor can't reset it itself absolutely nothing else matters! If you get a reverse, and the anchor comes out, there no guarantee whether it's in the weeds, on hard bottom or soupy mud when it tries to reset. So, my choice is a big anchor or a modern design, and enough scope to have numerous feet of chain dragging on the bottom when the anchor has to reset in the middle of the night. How could you sleep well at night if your anchor and rode won't do that by itself?

In addition, by the time I go to bed, it's been 4+ hours of the boat moving at anchor. If it's not set, the drag alarm would have already said as much.

Ted
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:45 AM   #27
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Don't get me wrong, I used to back down all the time, then occasions allowed me to test the no backdown option (for my setup, as it may not work for all combos) , after awhile I got comfy with what I felt was necessary.
Interesting comment. As I grew older, my comfort level ebbed and I backed down all the time. Do you think that "age" has a lot to do with your anchor routine?
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:48 AM   #28
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Peter, address my point. If your anchor can't reset it itself absolutely nothing else matters! If you get a reverse, and the anchor comes out, there no guarantee whether it's in the weeds, on hard bottom or soupy mud when it tries to reset. So, my choice is a big anchor or a modern design, and enough scope to have numerous feet of chain dragging on the bottom when the anchor has to reset in the middle of the night. How could you sleep well at night if your anchor and rode won't do that by itself?

In addition, by the time I go to bed, it's been 4+ hours of the boat moving at anchor. If it's not set, the drag alarm would have already said as much.

Ted
Two scenarios (same anchor - only variable is setting or not setting)

1. Anchor was set. Something changed and it may need to re-set. Amount of change needed to cause a need to re-set: Very high. Either very high pressures in predicted direction, or moderate pressures in an unexpected direction (tide/wind change).
2. Anchor was not set. Amount of change needed to cause a re-set: Who knows? Could be a lot, could be a little. It was never set in the first place.

I'm going with #1 Ted. There is not a circumstance I can imagine where I am better off without a set than with one. I'm fine using an anchor alarm, but not depending on it.

Peter
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:52 AM   #29
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Peter, address my point. If your anchor can't reset it itself absolutely nothing else matters! If you get a reverse, and the anchor comes out, there no guarantee whether it's in the weeds, on hard bottom or soupy mud when it tries to reset. So, my choice is a big anchor or a modern design, and enough scope to have numerous feet of chain dragging on the bottom when the anchor has to reset in the middle of the night. How could you sleep well at night if your anchor and rode won't do that by itself?

In addition, by the time I go to bed, it's been 4+ hours of the boat moving at anchor. If it's not set, the drag alarm would have already said as much.

Ted

Ted...remember the axioms of TF.



1. Logic has no place on TF.


2. Just because it works for one person it won't always work (he got away with it because he didn't do it my way) seems to be the defense on TF when someone with experience states otherwise.


3. It's very common to assume the the poster has not thought through the whole problem and lacks experience.


4. What I do should work for everyone despite regions, boats, experiences, equipment, techniques, other variables.


5. Anchoring techniques remain the same despite differences in anchors.


ohhhh, anchor threads breed many more.....
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:57 AM   #30
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Interesting comment. As I grew older, my comfort level ebbed and I backed down all the time. Do you think that "age" has a lot to do with your anchor routine?

Just the opposite...experience is a savored and nurtured lesson. Success should never be accepted blindly though...but then experience has taught me which anchorages to mostly choose that even if my anchor fails or drags..the worst is a temporary grounding.


Yes as I said...I do back down occasionally....usually in situations where I can't minimize certain dangers or uncertainties. But I also know like some...many times I anchor, the chain is doing the holding overnight...the anchor doesn't even have to be there. Experience also teaches me to be able to predict that much of the time...so I leave the anchor attached.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:01 AM   #31
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Perhaps one of you can send BoatUS a note and tell them the error of their ways in guiding boaters to set their anchors.

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...uary/anchoring

Peter
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:26 AM   #32
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Gladly, Chuck Hawley wanted me to write for West Advisor at one point.

He always enjoyed following new ideas and new tech.

He also told me to not waste my time working in a West store where I would only reach a few people, he suggested teaching, etc.... so I chose TF as my final sounding board.

I can appreciate your anchoring techniques, because I and maybe Ted and others don't agree is no reason to get personal yet again.

Sure backing down is a good idea to a point, but for some that know when it is and isn't necessary due to experiencewhy do it?...people can do what makes them comfortable....the real point is the initial set and whether your engine has to be the only measure of establishing that.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:28 AM   #33
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Gladly, Chuck Hawley wanted me to write for West Advisor at one point.
If you can talk Chuck into advocating no need for setting an anchor, I will be impressed. He and I used to do safety demonstrations at TrawlerFest and Safety at Sea Seminars. Tell him Peter says hello. It's been a few months since we've traded notes.

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Old 09-25-2020, 10:34 AM   #34
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Perhaps one of you can send BoatUS a note and tell them the error of their ways in guiding boaters to set their anchors.

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...uary/anchoring

Peter
Nah, they live in the world of day cruisers and lunch hooks.

In all seriousness, if I were planning on 4:1 scope with a shiny bow ornament, I'd probably be backing down hard also,.....and not sleeping a wink at night.

If I anchor where there's a reversing current, before I've gone to bed, it reached near full velocity one way or the other. Between that and the boat wandering back and forth, the anchor is set.

Now I have absolutely no problem with you backing down to set your anchor. What annoys me are the boaters with about 3:1 scope in 20' of water. Accident waiting to happen.

Ted
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:44 AM   #35
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Now I have absolutely no problem with you backing down to set your anchor. What annoys me are the boaters with about 3:1 scope in 20' of water. Accident waiting to happen.
Amen to that Ted. I am not short-scope person. But not always a long-scope either (>7:1 outside of storm conditions). I think it rude where boaters come into a crowded anchorage and lay-down 10:1.

Peter
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:53 AM   #36
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If you can talk Chuck into advocating no need for setting an anchor, I will be impressed. He and I used to do safety demonstrations at TrawlerFest and Safety at Sea Seminars. Tell him Peter says hello. It's been a few months since we've traded notes.

Peter
Oh I know...you tried dropping his name before.. I let it go....but since you decided to compare size.

I too taught at trawler fests and Annapolis safety at sea seminars....its been years for me and Chuck as I got away from his end of the business.. but what the heck...

.....as with manny TF disagreements... both know something and happen to disagree.

If you need more proof I may actually know something, approved at a higher level than internet posting.......
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:04 AM   #37
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Oh I know...you tried dropping his name before.. I let it go....but since you decided to compare size.

I too taught at trawler fests and Annapolis safety at sea seminars....its been years for me and Chuck as I got away from his end of the business.. but what the heck...

.....as with manny TF disagreements... both know something and happen to disagree.

If you need more proof I may actually know something, approved at a higher level than internet posting.......
Chuck Hawley is an industry hero to me. I do not know him well, but our paths cross every year or so. Frankly, given how many people know him, I'm surprised he remembers me, but that's the type of guy he is. There are some people who give much more than they take - Chuck Hawley is that person. Meeting him was a lucky break for me - my professional marine career, short as it was (about 5-years full-time) would have gone nowhere without the chance meeting where he helped me with an Autopilot issue. From there, he opened some doors for me.

But....back to the topic. If you can get someone like Chuck Hawley to say it's not necessary to set an anchor, I'll eat every word. I would not be surprised to find you are very knowledgeable person with a great deal to add to many discussions. I just find it difficult to weed-though the contrarian approach. To me (and I think many), arguing against setting an anchor is peculiar.

Peter
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:14 AM   #38
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Like Ted said, those outfits write for boaters, not really cruisers unless the article is addressed to that level.

Just one of the reasons I didn't want to write for West Advisor and taught my own safety at sea classes to a different audience.

Again, if anchors have changed but anchoring has not....WTF?

Plus there is no argument against what do do if an anchor needs setting help and is no use to an unpowerd vessel or a midnight reset.

Contrary an to you maybe, refreshing to others educational to more, etc...etc....just not your opinion thats all. I really can't say what works 100 percent for 100 percent of the people....but I think I examined what works for me and why.
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:21 AM   #39
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Granted there are many ways to layout and "set" your anchor and many of them can be effective. I have seen several boaters drive forward (some at a fairly good clip) while dropping their anchor and rode, letting their forward momentum turn the boat and I guess "set" the anchor. I guess it could be a "practice run" for any upcoming "reset" that may be needed?? From what I have seen, it seems to work OK, although I thought anchors were meant to be pulled from the shank .

I have witnessed those who let out just enough rode to reach the bottom (and maybe a bit more) and then back all over the bay trying to get it hold (usually without success), and also those who drop the anchor and proceed to "pile" the chain on top of it, immediately shutting down the engine and then jumping into the dinghy for a "shore excursion". Both of those methods not recommended, but I have seen the "pile" method actually work as the boat was still there in the morning.
I do also agree with the short scope in shallow water issue and the "selfish" boater who puts out extremely long rode layouts (except when storm conditions are expected) effectively taking up a large portion of the anchorage issue.

I think some of these "different" ideas discussed by various posters could be "regional" and based on local conditions and factors as well as what various boaters have tried and found "worked for them" under the conditions they find themselves in. I agree with Ted, it is very important that your ground tackle be able to "reset" itself without your direct intervention, however, I like to do everything I can to increase my odds of not really having to rely on a reset. For me, these things include: using a very good, properly sized anchor, all chain rode with the proper scope, selecting a protected location with known good holding, and ensuring that I have a dependable set to start with.
Here in the PNW area, it is rare to anchor in "shallow" water and we often anchor in depths of 30 plus feet with regular large tide swings of sometimes up to 20+ feet.
Anyway, I am comfortable and confident in the methods that I use in this area (described in an earlier post), as it sounds like others have found what works for them where they are.
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Old 09-25-2020, 12:03 PM   #40
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I've posted this before and I'm posting it again. If I'm toward the end of the pack coming into an anchorage and can't find a spot that affords me the scope I want, I will leave without expecting someone else to change their scope to accommodate me.

If I'm early to the anchorage, I will set my scope to what I feel is appropriate. This putting my vessel at risk to accommodate your vessel is total BS. If I choose to anchor in 10' of water with 100' of chain below the surface (10:1) for 25+ knot winds, I'm going to do it. If an anchorage holds 20 boats at 5:1 scope, and 10 more show up, is every boat expected to go to 3:1?

Ted
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Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





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