Anchor Swivel options for 5/16 Chain

[rslifkin]

It all depends on the setup. Some seem to have no need for a swivel, others benefit from one. That's why I'd suggest trying without one first and only add one if needed. On my own setup, I determined a swivel would make life easier when the anchor comes up backwards (which it does about 50% of the time without a swivel). Without it, it was a fight to get the thing to hit the roller at an angle where it would come up far enough to flip itself over, but not so far that it smashed the pulpit while flipping.

 

[backinblue]

So just to clarify, how many days a year do you anchor???


This one?



Sure he's found one that he feels is better than others but again, without knowing how many days a year and in what conditions it means little.
And, can you prove to me that an expensive swivel is actually better than a rated shackle?
Why would I buy one when 99% of the time my anchor comes up without issue and...when there is an issue it is sorted in minutes?

Wow, you edit the post to fit your opinion? Nobody is trying to convince you that you should add a swivel. This thread was started by someone looking for advice because they plan to use one. If you are happy without one, good for you. Doesn't mean that one solution fits everyone.

 

[psneeld]

Or ....some like me ....may choose it for convenience. I can in good conscience because I DON'T anchor through thick and thin, but plenty enough to know what I need to know to anchor safely and maybe just as much as anyone else.

If I anchored out 100 percent of the time and/or my anchor was easy to turn or mostly came up correctly, I would choose NOT to use one.

Choosing to do things differently isnt always out of ignorance.

 

[ranger58sb]

Amazed that we and most full time cruisers can manage to anchor 365 days of the year without a swivel and wouldn't use one if they gave them away, yet those that don't actually seem to do much anchoring seem to think they are needed.
Why is this???

You've seen reports here about anchors returning backwards. Number of days per year doesn't matter; reversed anchor is a pain in the a$$.

That's not a recommendation for a swivel; it's a solution to our problem. If you don't have the problem, then you wouldn't necessarily know what a pain in the a$$ it is.

And if you did have the problem, you'd be free to solve it any way you wish.

-Chris

 

[NCheaven]

I don’t have one, but I’m always willing to learn both sides of this and other questions. (Isn’t that why most of us are on TF?). Negative: Another risk of failure that can be avoided. Positive: Not sure, but they work great between my fishing line/leader! ?

 

[psneeld]

So far, I haven't heard of many failures that weren't poor installs, factory defects or operator error/ maintenance.

Way more anchoring failures from poor anchoring.

 

[backinblue]

So far, I haven't heard of many failures that weren't poor installs, factory defects or operator error/ maintenance.

Way more anchoring failures from poor anchoring.

That's the truest thing I've read here. Most anchoring failures I've seen are from poor technique not a failure of a piece of gear. One thing we can all agree on here, there's nothing like an anchoring thread to get a wide range of opinions!

 

[syjos]

Amazed that we and most full time cruisers can manage to anchor 365 days of the year without a swivel and wouldn't use one if they gave them away, yet those that don't actually seem to do much anchoring seem to think they are needed.
Why is this???

I agree.

We've been anchoring 5 to 6 days a week, 2 to 3 months/year for almost 30 years.

We tried a variety of swivels at various times to reduce chain twist. The swivels made no difference to the rode twisting or not. We have 3 feet between the anchor roller and windlass which allows me to lift the chain off the wildcat and twist it to bring the anchor onto the roller at the correct orientation. Other times when the anchor is 1 to 2 feet from the roller and the anchor is usually swinging back and forth and twisting, I time it so the anchor comes up facing the correct direction. I'm always at the pulpit when retrieving the anchor.
To untwist the chain, I stop retrieving when the anchor is off the bottom and dangle the anchor and rode for a few seconds to let it untwist. The anchor acts like a flywheel and facilitates twist. A swivel reduces the flywheel effect. A deeper groove on the roller make a significant reduction in chain twist.

I still don't think a swivel reduces rode twist since the rode is at most times laying on the bottom. Plus the spinning of the boat during tide changes is random to both directions so the build up of twisting rarely occurs. And even if the rode gets lifted off the bottom during a gust, the chain hangs in an arc due to it's weight, so the chain will not untwist.

I also don't see swivels "swiveling" that much with the weight of the catanery creating a side load on the swivel. The swivels are not equipped with bearings and no means of lubricating the contact areas so they don't twist freely.

Finally, everybody that has a swivel will claim their's is the best and works perfectly to validate their choice. Like with anchors.

To me a swivel is a solution looking for a problem. There may be a few instances where the swivel is necessary but rare.

 

[psneeld]

Like always, smart people wind up evolving their boat and systems for THEMSELVES, not the opinions nor problems of others. I have NEVER said I use a swivel because of line twist...except at the very end of the hoist, the geometry of my set up tends to let the anchor turn backwards...I have no clue why as I have done all the suggestions I have ever read to avoid this or any twist.


I am not worried about swivel failure in the slightest...from what I bought, how it's rigged, how its maintained, how its used.


Like all "possible points of failure" on a boat...risk mitigation is necessary and I believe I have reduced the "weak link" issue to well below most others. I sleep well most nights at anchor...only worrying about a few things...but not the swivel.


Convenience is just that so please don't lump me in with swivel users who use them because they "think" its a good idea that will solve all anchoring issues...I an NOT in that camp at all. I say this because other that might find a use in having a swivel should not be afraid of them...just not thinking through the pros and cons. Great numbers of swivel failures seem to miss the headlines so by themselves...they are not the demonic.


I also said if the risk factors increased to offset my "convenience" use...I wouldn't use one...so don't put me in the "validating my choice" camp thinking they are always better...just in my and maybe some other's situation.

 

[MurrayM]

The weakest link in many systems is the human, particularly humans who are absolutely sure they know what they are doing or that their way is the only/best way.

 

[MurrayM]

Something else to think about:

Further if using a stainless steel swivel on the galvanized chain, try to isolate the two materials with insulating tape to reduce the galvanic interaction between the two dissimilar metals.

https://www.mantusmarine.com/mantus-anchor-knowledgebase/swivels/

 

[Nomad Willy]

Amazed that we and most full time cruisers can manage to anchor 365 days of the year without a swivel and wouldn't use one if they gave them away, yet those that don't actually seem to do much anchoring seem to think they are needed.
Why is this???

With an all chain rode and a grove in the center of the bow roller one should not need a swivel or flip link. How could the chain get disoriented? If the groove is deep enough for the chain it should come up as it went down

 

[Seevee]

Jeff,


Interesting, I have the exact same setup as you do. 55 Mantus on my 40 Mainship.


So far, so good without a swivel, but pretty new to me. Interested on what this group finds and what you do.

 

[Simi 60]

That's not a recommendation for a swivel; it's a solution to our problem. If you don't have the problem, then you wouldn't necessarily know what a pain in the a$$ it is.

And if you did have the problem, you'd be free to solve it any way you wish.

I would have thought the solution to the problem is to find out why you get twists in the chain and why it doesn't come up straight instead of adding what some would see as an expensive potential weak point.

Grooving the rollers ( I did this onboard with a 4 inch angle grinder) sorted 99% of our issue but after a major storm we had continual twist issues again.
Instead of sticking a bandaid/swivel on I investigated why and it was discovered the chain had deformed slightly - replaced chain, problem sorted.

On rare occasion we still have the problem due to current reversals and 360's and on 150lb of anchor I assume it would be more of a pita than many would experience.
But the reality is its not a pita at all.

My wife simply ties a rope to anchor and back to Sampson post - lower anchor a bit - rotate chain to correct position in groove and raise anchor - untie rope.
No heavy lifting - no fuss.

If the chain is in the correct orientation in its grooves it has no option but to bring the chain up straight and the anchor right way up.

 

[Simi 60]

With an all chain rode and a grove in the center of the bow roller one should not need a swivel or flip link. How could the chain get disoriented? If the groove is deep enough for the chain it should come up as it went down

Most times yes.
Lack of patience on my part has us on occasion pulling chain at an angle off to the side and sometimes it jumps/rolls out of the groove.
If I take more time and let the boat come around for a more vertical lift, no problem.

 

[alfamike]

Ultra anchor swivel -- link to website

Here is a link to their web site for the Ultra Flip Swivel for anchoring


https://www.ultramarinewest.com/product-list


Good Luck.

Thanks,

Alfa Mike

 

[Ventana]

I agree.

We've been anchoring 5 to 6 days a week, 2 to 3 months/year for almost 30 years.

We tried a variety of swivels at various times to reduce chain twist. The swivels made no difference to the rode twisting or not. We have 3 feet between the anchor roller and windlass which allows me to lift the chain off the wildcat and twist it to bring the anchor onto the roller at the correct orientation. Other times when the anchor is 1 to 2 feet from the roller and the anchor is usually swinging back and forth and twisting, I time it so the anchor comes up facing the correct direction. I'm always at the pulpit when retrieving the anchor.

Not trying to make this worse, although I know it will, but just out of curiosity what kind of anchor? I ask because all of the stupidly oversized anchors that we have used over the past years seem to flip to the correct orientation as they are coming over the roller. I have had chain twist issues, have tried with and without a swivel, have used mixed rodes, but have never had an anchor that did not self-right when it got to the roller. Or maybe I am misunderstanding.

 

[psneeld]

I have a Manson Supreme 60lb, and again, it may not be so much the anchor but the geometry of pulpit angle, length of chain to the windlass, the fact the chain rarely stays in the grooved roller, etc......and maybe 50 percent of the time the anchor hits the roller 180 degrees from where it should.

 

[syjos]

Not trying to make this worse, although I know it will, but just out of curiosity what kind of anchor? I ask because all of the stupidly oversized anchors that we have used over the past years seem to flip to the correct orientation as they are coming over the roller. I have had chain twist issues, have tried with and without a swivel, have used mixed rodes, but have never had an anchor that did not self-right when it got to the roller. Or maybe I am misunderstanding.

I have a Genuine Bruce 66# and it likes to be 180 degrees off when it comes up onto the roller. It is usually rotating when it come out of the water too. I leave it below the roller and time it so just as it rotates into the correct orientation, I goose the windlass control to bring the anchor up onto the roller.

If the anchor is'nt rotating, I lift the chain off the wildcat and rotate it 180 degrees by hand.

The diameter of the chain may affect the way it does or does'nt rotate out of the roller groove. I use 5/16" HT which does'nt have big enough "teeth" to not rotate on the roller, especially if the rode is coming up at an angle.

 

[Peter B]

Why would I buy one when 99% of the time my anchor comes up without issue and...when there is an issue it is sorted in minutes?

Lucky?

No, not just luck.

It all depends on the setup. Some seem to have no need for a swivel, others benefit from one. That's why I'd suggest trying without one first and only add one if needed.

I agree.

We've been anchoring 5 to 6 days a week, 2 to 3 months/year for almost 30 years.

We tried a variety of swivels at various times to reduce chain twist. The swivels made no difference to the rode twisting or not. We have 3 feet between the anchor roller and windlass which allows me to lift the chain off the wildcat and twist it to bring the anchor onto the roller at the correct orientation.....A swivel reduces the flywheel effect. A deeper groove on the roller make a significant reduction in chain twist....

There used to be a program on TV, where the catch saying was..."I think the answer lies in the soil". in a rich Yorkshire accent...
I think with regard to this swivel v's no swivel the answer lies somewhere amongst all the comments...

I used to use one, then went without, and my experience was like Simi - came up right every time. I worked out it was because I always made sure the links in the chain were aligned right from the gypsy to the anchor shackle. I also came to the conclusion it was the nice groove in the roller that helped keep it all aligned, and this is clearly more effective if the chain links are of sufficient size such as to help guide the chain by fitting well into the groove.

So, in my view, the answer is not in the soil, but in Nomad Willy's comment below

With an all chain rode and a grove in the center of the bow roller one should not need a swivel or flip link. How could the chain get disoriented? If the groove is deep enough for the chain it should come up as it went down

...provided (1)one's chain links are big enough...and (2)the groove in the roller deep enough...and (3)you make sure there is no twist between the gypsy and the anchor. Also (4)it will tend to not work in mixed rodes where at least some rope rode is run out.

So, unless all those parameters are met, it won't work as planned, which is why so many find they do need a shackle. That's my take on it anyway, and I thought about it a lot before I had the courage to drop the swivel out. Especially now, when I no longer have a boat, and the thing I miss most is going out and anchoring, strangely enough. I really miss my Sarca. it worked perfectly...the boat overall, not so much.

I also agree it is quite possible to have a shackle that not only does work, but is strong enough not to be a weak link, if you are one of those with the issue not solvable by being able to meet the 4 parameters I mentioned.

 

[ranger58sb]

I would have thought the solution to the problem is to find out why you get twists in the chain and why it doesn't come up straight instead of adding what some would see as an expensive potential weak point.

Combination rope/chain rode.

Solving the twisting by changing to all-chain would have introduced an even more irritating pain in the a$$: cleaning mud off more chain links.

-Chris

 

[HiDHo]

Take a deep breath and smile all you “ anchor flippers” at least you have a hat that will let you be recognized by other AF’s !

 

[rslifkin]

Combination rope/chain rode.

Solving the twisting by changing to all-chain would have introduced an even more irritating pain in the a$$: cleaning mud off more chain links.

-Chris

Same here. It's fairly random which direction the chain loads into the windlass when I've had some line out. In my case, I'm still experimenting with the swivel setup to see if it actually makes it easier to get the anchor rotated the correct direction or not. The jury is still out for my application.

 

[psneeld]

For me, my chain comes out of the groove a lot, when the boat veers or tide versus wind puts everything at a funny angle.

My roller is stainless steel and a machine shop cut the groove to fit the chain perfectly. Not sure what else I can do except every time I start a retrieve is go hand straighten everything and have to keep doing that everytime the chain comes out of the groove.... or wait till everything straightens out... not my cup of tea....

Because I go forward to pin the anchor anyhow when it's on the pulpit....flipping it around on the swivel and winching it up is the least amount of work and quickest for me.

 

[backinblue]

Some good videos here:
https://www.ultramarinewest.com/products/ultra-flip-swivel

 

[Nomad Willy]

http://groundtackle.com

Should work better than a swivel.
If one has room between the bow roller and the winch.

Click on first “products” and then “Flip Links”.

 

[Salish Nomad]

Amazed that we and most full time cruisers can manage to anchor 365 days of the year without a swivel and wouldn't use one if they gave them away, yet those that don't actually seem to do much anchoring seem to think they are needed.
Why is this???

I just checked my log book for last year, and we anchored more than 100 nights between Seattle, and Juneau, and back. Please consider that our boat is roughly half the size of yours. We use a swivel, and the Mantus anchor lands without any intervention on our part. Prior to swivel we were out, exposed, on our tiny little bow fighting the anchor into place...not comfortable in many situations. For us this is a safety issue. We trust the properly installed Mantus swivel not to fail. On a boat of your size I totally understand your viewpoint. I would not us a swivel. In my 60 plus years of operating commercial vessels in Alaska...never any swivels.

 

[Simi 60]

Prior to swivel we were out, exposed, on our tiny little bow fighting the anchor into place...not comfortable in many situations. For us this is a safety issue.
.

And that is a fair point that I had not considered even though we have had smaller boats ourselves

 

[Brooksie]

A few people are mentioning that they are trusting galvanized swivels. Mooring people will confirm that this is the #1 failure point on moorings. You look and it seems like the nut is welded on. But that is only to keep it from unscrewing. For strength it is relying on it's threads which are not heavily galvanized plus the welding burns it off. When the threads rust away, which you can't see inside the nut, the twisting motion soon cracks the weld. They are required in some mooring fields but most experienced owners deep6 them ASAP. My 2c

 

[psneeld]

My swivel gets inspected every time I go to drop anchor and often when I raise it.

Like most people that post here, they say they trust their anchoring tackle over moorings...I sort of agree, but I don't have a lot of info on how well managed moorings fail.