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Old 01-25-2020, 03:23 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by 4mo View Post
I'm pretty sure that nobody plans of staying overnight in unprotected anchorages with heavy winds... but if you end up in that situation the 25kg Rocna is plenty.
I agree. Your boat at 26,000lb =~ 11 tonne, which is the weight of my CHB34 when I had her, and the 22kg (45lb) S-Sarca I had on her was plenty. The Rocnas tend to use similar weights/length. You might also want to consider the Sarca Excel, now available over there, and designed for exactly your type of pulpit, but a bit more orthodox in shape than the spade types like the R-Vulcan, Manson Boss and Spade itself.
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Old 01-25-2020, 05:55 AM   #42
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So you totally disagree with this part of my post too? As well as disagreeing with Manson NZ ?
"Why do people think the mfr/designer does not know what to recommend. Sure there can be special circumstances, boats much heavier than usual for length etc,but surely the mfr with his recommendation table has every reason to get it right."

Works if people actually contact the manufacturer which I'm guessing most don't.
Doesn't necessarily work if they rely on the published recommendation table.
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Old 01-25-2020, 09:00 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
I wonder how all those people on bigger boats and much bigger anchors manage?
Our boat is only 42 feet, but we have an 85 pound Mantus for our main anchor.

I'm 62, and I don't have any trouble with handling it as long as the windless works. It comes up and stows pretty easy.

I admit, the one time I had to pull it up by hand (when our windless breaker switch gave up the ghost) was not the funnest day of boating I ever had. It's not just the weight of the anchor, it's the chain, too. We were only anchored in about fifteen feet of water. If we had been in thirty or forty feet, I'm not sure I could have got it up.

When that happens on a sailboat, it's easy. You just use one of the sail winches to get it in (which has made me think many times about finding a good used sailboat winch and mounting it on my fore deck as a capstan.
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Old 01-25-2020, 11:16 AM   #44
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Anchor manufacturers recommendations for anchor size vary a lot.

That’s because there’s a lot of variables.
Windage. Low freeboard to oxygen tent and high rigging.
Wind.
Steady
Variable w gusts
Veering winds.
Anchor design.
Weight of chain.
Length of chain.
Snubbers or/and line stretch.

With all the variables anchor weight estimates (or guesses) would span a wide range of weights/sizes.

But of course the biggest variable of all is the seafloor.

And then there’s the person buying the anchor. ASD would go one size up. I would lean more on my own experience. Re that though I know I have changed my opinions about several anchors capabilities considerably over time.

But in the end we all pick our way of choosing and most are probably a combination of numerous sources of input and .... go for it.
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Old 01-25-2020, 05:57 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
Anchor manufacturers recommendations for anchor size vary a lot.

Thatís because thereís a lot of variables.
Windage. Low freeboard to oxygen tent and high rigging.
Wind.
Steady
Variable w gusts
Veering winds.
Anchor design.
Weight of chain.
Length of chain.
Snubbers or/and line stretch.

With all the variables anchor weight estimates (or guesses) would span a wide range of weights/sizes.

But of course the biggest variable of all is the seafloor.

And then thereís the person buying the anchor. ASD would go one size up. I would lean more on my own experience. Re that though I know I have changed my opinions about several anchors capabilities considerably over time.

But in the end we all pick our way of choosing and most are probably a combination of numerous sources of input and .... go for it.

All good points Eric, and I totally agree with you as long as you use the same anchor that I do!
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Old 01-25-2020, 07:31 PM   #46
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firehoser75,
“totally agree with you”
This must be my day!
And since I’m using the same anchor as you ......
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:40 AM   #47
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I’ve been using a 25kg/55lb Vulcan on my 40’ 2,200lb Pilgrim trawler with great success but have recently downsized to the 20kg/44lb. The 25kg put a lot of strain on the windless, seemed overkill for my inland river conditions, and it’s what Rocna specifies in their sizing chart as the direct middle-match for my size and displacement. You’ve probably seen Peter Smith’s directive on sizing his anchors... “Unlike other manufacturers, our anchor sizing recommendations are intended to provide an anchor adequate for use in most all conditions. We base our calculations on 50 knots of wind, associated surge, and poor holding bottoms. ”
Now that I have 2 Rocna’s, the 20kg on my boat and the 25kg in my garage, I have myself in a pickle since I’m convinced that if I sell the 25kg I’ll find myself in a severe condition where I’ll be regretting having downsized to the 20kg, yet I don’t want to carry the 25kg along for the ride. The 20kg has performed amazingly well (it held fast while anchored directly below the McAlpine locks and dam in a horrendous current with 38’ trawler hanging on my hip because he couldn’t get his anchor to set). I try to convince myself that my secondaries (a 44lb Bruce, 30 CQR, and 20lb Danforth) will give me a lot of back-up options... but I still struggle with letting go of the 25kg Rocna. What to do?
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:03 AM   #48
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All chain 5/16" BBB. In the one TS, 100 ft of chain out in 7 ft of water did not hold. Bottom was soft muck. Oriental NC.
Being a firm believer in the new style anchor (Ultra as primary, Vulcan as backup ex Bruce primary) In soft muck, i find that only a Fortress set at 45 degrees will hold.
My $.02
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:52 PM   #49
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Now that I have 2 Rocnaís, the 20kg on my boat and the 25kg in my garage, I have myself in a pickle since Iím convinced that if I sell the 25kg Iíll find myself in a severe condition where Iíll be regretting having downsized to the 20kg, yet I donít want to carry the 25kg along for the ride. The 20kg has performed amazingly well (it held fast while anchored directly below the McAlpine locks and dam in a horrendous current with 38í trawler hanging on my hip because he couldnít get his anchor to set). I try to convince myself that my secondaries (a 44lb Bruce, 30 CQR, and 20lb Danforth) will give me a lot of back-up options... but I still struggle with letting go of the 25kg Rocna. What to do?
First TF instance of "Anchor Buyers Remorse". Why not make it your 4th secondary anchor, that should cover it.
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Old 01-29-2020, 07:39 AM   #50
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"yet I donít want to carry the 25kg along for the ride"


Anyone that has been cruising for a while has run aground . Styff happens.


A second anchor on board to replace a lost anchor and line is great insurance .


If located where its easy to access , it can be used to pull off a grounding , or to stop dancing L & R in shifty winds.Stern anchor or Bahama style anchoring come to mind.



Instead of leaving it ashore , contemplate setting it up with line so it can be easily/instantly deployed.
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:11 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by sailorjoe View Post
Iíve been using a 25kg/55lb Vulcan on my 40í 2,200lb Pilgrim trawler with great success but have recently downsized to the 20kg/44lb. The 25kg put a lot of strain on the windless, seemed overkill for my inland river conditions, and itís what Rocna specifies in their sizing chart as the direct middle-match for my size and displacement.

Now that I have 2 Rocnaís, the 20kg on my boat and the 25kg in my garage, I have myself in a pickle since Iím convinced that if I sell the 25kg Iíll find myself in a severe condition where Iíll be regretting having downsized to the 20kg, yet I donít want to carry the 25kg along for the ride. The 20kg has performed amazingly well (it held fast while anchored directly below the McAlpine locks and dam in a horrendous current with 38í trawler hanging on my hip because he couldnít get his anchor to set).

What to do?
I'd have thought being right in the middle of the maker's recommendations would be a good thing...

What is your windlass, and what was the nature the "lot of strain" with the 25kg model?

Think I'd be inclined to keep the 25kg and jettison the 20kg if at all viable (and I'm just guessing, without knowing full details of boat, the whole ground tackle system, expected bottom types, etc.).

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Old 01-29-2020, 08:53 PM   #52
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At this point, I'm thinking that as long as I can make the 33kg / 73lb Vulcan fit, I'll just go with that. They give good enough dimensions that between a tape measure and assembling the cardboard template version, I can confirm it'll fit. And I'm sure I can find 18 lbs of extra stuff that can be removed from the boat if I'm concerned about the weight.

Windlass-wise, the new Maxwell HRC10-8 that's going on has a rated max pull of 1540 lbs. So if we figure 1/4 of that for working load, that gives 385 lbs. The 73 lb anchor, 75 feet of chain, shackle and 350 feet of line is still under 200 lbs, so even coming up with a serious load of mud, the windlass shouldn't have any trouble bringing the stuff up.
We have a 33kg/73lb Rocna on Blue Sky and it works beautifully. I once had to pull it up manually (using the manual ratchet system on the windlass), and although it was a slow laborious chore, it was not heart attack inducing whatsoever for these old muscles. I had to pull up the anchor (73#) and 240' of chain (~240#) in 40' of water.

We also had a Maxwell HRC10-8 on our last boat, albeit with a smaller 33 kg Rocna, and it also worked very well; we had 150' chain and 250' brait. On the rare occasion where we had let out some brait, the windlass seamlessly pulled up the brait and chain (plus anchor), dispelling any misgivings I might of had about the effectiveness of the brait/chain gypsy.
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:58 PM   #53
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We also had a Maxwell HRC10-8 on our last boat, albeit with a smaller 33 kg Rocna, and it also worked very well; we had 150' chain and 250' brait. On the rare occasion where we had let out some brait, the windlass seamlessly pulled up the brait and chain (plus anchor), dispelling any misgivings I might of had about the effectiveness of the brait/chain gypsy.

Hearing another confirmation of that is good. I'm currently assessing whether I can step the line size up to 3/4" instead of the 5/8" that's spec-ed for the windlass to make it a little less stretchy and a little more durable. I've got a test piece of 3/4" 8 plait here to bring down to the boat over the weekend. Maxwell told me there's no way it'll work, only 5/8" will, but I want to see how it sits in the gypsy before deciding. I did find a mention of someone using 3/4" 3 strand in an RC8-8 (also spec-ed for 5/8" line), so considering how squishy 8 plait is, there's a decent chance it'll sit fine in the gypsy.
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Old 01-30-2020, 07:13 AM   #54
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" I'm currently assessing whether I can step the line size up to 3/4" instead of the 5/8" that's spec-ed for the windlass to make it a little less stretchy and a little more durable."


It is the stretch built into modern nylon line that allows the use of light weight anchors.


Most of the line wear I see is chafing from a poor line setup going overboard, not from stretching.


It takes about 10% of the breaking strength of nylon to begin to stretch the line , usually thinner line reduces the shock loads on the anchor and gives a smoother heavy weather ride aboard.
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Old 06-01-2020, 11:36 AM   #55
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I've now got 2 weekends of use on the new anchor and related gear. The 73lb Vulcan fits the pulpit nicely after I modified the slot a bit, and it both self-launches and docks nicely with the windlass, no manual fiddling required. The HRC10-8 windlass did a great job with the rope/chain combo. Seamless going out, and coming back in you just stop right before the splice hits the windlass, bump it gently, then continue (if it tries to transition while pulling at full speed and lifting 50+ lbs of chain it slips and won't grab the chain).

I put it through its first mild wind test this weekend, anchored in 48 feet of water with 275 feet out (5:1 scope after accounting for freeboard, first 90 feet are chain). Bottom was dark, sticky mud, but not overly soft. Anchor was set with a gentle tug, then brought up tension again, sat with both engines at reverse idle for about a minute, then 1000 rpm for about 30 seconds.

Sat through a couple hours of 20 - 25 kts with gusts to 30 - 33 and somewhat shifty wind direction on the gusts. So we were getting blown off sideways down wind at a pretty good pace (saw 1.5 kts on the plotter a couple of times) before fetching up on the rode. Between chain catenary and almost 200 feet of stretchy nylon, the take-up was very smooth and gentle, so no comfort or holding concerns. Wind became more steady (both direction and much smaller gusts) around sunset, so with the back covers up we sat nice and steady with about 18 kts of wind, just a mild yaw over maybe a 10 degree range. Slept great, then sat through a few more hours of 18 gusting to 25 the next day.

When we pulled the anchor up to head home last night, the mud caked into the slot and shackle led me to believe that we had the anchor fully buried including the shank despite having pulled on it in various directions over about a 90* range. Based on our swing circle, the anchor never moved. Retrieval on the Vulcan doesn't seem too bad even when it's deeply buried. A couple minutes with the rode vertical (with an occasional bump on the windlass to keep tension) loosened it up enough to lift it right out. Much easier than the Fortress break-out dance...

One of the photos shows the anchor about to be docked into the pulpit (with plenty of hull clearance, the point of least clearance is when fully docked). I'd say that overall, it worked out nicely.


The first time using the new rig even provided some good entertainment. Sitting in 49 feet of water when some people in a small boat come into the cove we were in (deep until very close to shore) and tossed out an anchor. After a few minutes, I notice they're drifting around. Shortly before they got close enough to concern me, I see them realize they're moving, pull their anchor up (looked like they only pulled in 40 or 50 feet of line) and move elsewhere. I don't think they realized how deep it was and I don't think their anchor even touched the bottom. Most of the boats that anchor in this bay tuck into the shallow spots, so they probably figured that if we were anchored there, they could too, not thinking that anyone would ever anchor in nearly 50 feet of water.
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Old 06-03-2020, 07:54 AM   #56
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Dup post!
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