Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-19-2023, 01:52 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
City: Jacksonville
Join Date: Mar 2023
Posts: 227
Anchor Sizes

As a current sailboat cruiser on a 41' 22,000# boat I have as my main anchor a 60# Manson Surpreme "new generation" anchor. This anchor has only ever dragged once in 12 years after it was "set" and has only not set right away twice. My backup anchor is a 45# Mantus, which I have only ever assembled once and has never been in the water.

So why does it seem, based on boat listings, that a 40-45# trawler will have a 35-50# CQR or a similar sized plow anchor? This boat weight MUCH more and have more windage than my sailboat.

Is it just that they don't cruise and stay on anchor a lot? Does this go along with the low engine hours I have noted? It is that the bow just isn't designed to hold a bigger anchor?

What anchors are your anchor out type cruiser with 40-45' trawlers using?

Never mind I found some old threads and don't want to start a new flame battle. If you want to answer and discuss that is great. If you want you just post "it has already been answered" type of of response PLEASE just move on.
Don L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 02:29 PM   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 19,066
I always like to go larger than the manufacturer recommended size. Assuming the windlass can handle the weight and the anchor will fit in the pulpit.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 02:48 PM   #3
Guru
 
motion30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,145
A similar size stroller is heavier and should use a bigger anchor.
I have a 44' sundeck cruiser I have a 44' Sunday cruiser, And I have a 105 pound mantus. This full time at anchor. I have never had the anchor drag
motion30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 02:52 PM   #4
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 5,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don L View Post
Is it just that they don't cruise and stay on anchor a lot? Does this go along with the low engine hours I have noted? It is that the bow just isn't designed to hold a bigger anchor?
I don't think it's a trawler-thing. I think you are comparing yourself - a very active boater with the legions of passive owners, sail and power. Walking the docks, most boats seem to have undersized anchors. I suspect that when someone sells their boat they often keep the bigger anchor for their next boat so many boats come with undersized ground tackle. Although you'd never know it from forums, very few folks cruise their boats - anchors get used for lunch-hook at best, perhaps an overnight in perfect weather. Doesn't take much. You could go further - chain vs rope rode; use of snubbers, multiple anchors. Casual users - sail or power - don't get into this type of improvement.

I don't think you can draw any conclusions on power vs sail on this one. Maybe cruiser vs non-cruiser; perhaps fanatic owner vs casual owner.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 03:33 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
City: Jacksonville
Join Date: Mar 2023
Posts: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
I don't think it's a trawler-thing. ..................Although you'd never know it from forums, very few folks cruise their boats - anchors get used for lunch-hook at best, perhaps an overnight in perfect weather.

I don't think you can draw any conclusions on power vs sail on this one. Maybe cruiser vs non-cruiser; perhaps fanatic owner vs casual owner.

Peter
I pretty much accept this. I lately have been trying to get to know and ask questions of the trawler cruisers around me. Back in day when I hauled each winter I used to walk the yard and wonder about the tiny anchors. One year I had mine on the ground to work on something and everyone walking by commented on how big it was, which I then knew I had the right size.

If/when I get a trawler I have to able to go to sleep knowing I am good at anchor for a 180 degree wind shift during a 60 mph front.
Don L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 04:21 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Senojev's Avatar
 
City: Portage
Vessel Name: Sir Tugley Blue
Vessel Model: 2010 Nordic Tug - 2010
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 67
Anchor Size

Have a 37 NT, actually around 40í and around 30,000 lbs with full tanks and provisioned. Have a 33kg original Rocna and could probably gone with a 25kg but happy to go larger.
Senojev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 04:45 PM   #7
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 5,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don L View Post
I pretty much accept this. I lately have been trying to get to know and ask questions of the trawler cruisers around me. Back in day when I hauled each winter I used to walk the yard and wonder about the tiny anchors. One year I had mine on the ground to work on something and everyone walking by commented on how big it was, which I then knew I had the right size.

If/when I get a trawler I have to able to go to sleep knowing I am good at anchor for a 180 degree wind shift during a 60 mph front.
Seamanship and risk avoidance knows no bounds between power and sail. I think more sailors aspire to self reliance and independence which leads to heavier and higher quality equipment choices whether or not they actually execute on those desires, but for those who seek to cruise, choices are similar. Heavy ground tackle, etc. On this forum, power users are pretty experienced, most (not all) came from sail. Old habits die hard.
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 04:47 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Delta Riverat's Avatar
 
City: Stockton
Vessel Name: Dream Catcher
Vessel Model: 1979 Island Gypsy 44 Flush Aft Deck
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 464
I believe I have a Fortress FX55
Delta Riverat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 05:27 PM   #9
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,645
The whole question in post 1 is wrong.
It’s design not weight.
Every anchor is different yes but holding power (HP) varies wildly on most bottom types that aren’t a nice combination of sand and mud. Fortunately most bottoms in most places are generally good mud. I’m guessing 1/3 sand and 2/3 mud. But an anchor that holds well in mud may do poorly in gravel like perhaps a Danforth Anchor with shank and flukes forged .. not punched out of sheetmetal.

Ideally an excellent anchor (for a bottom type) and a good bottom will result in best results. And some anchors perform fairly well on most all bottom types. While others like the Danforth does poorly in some conditions.

Lots of variables like veering performance and short scope performance … just two variables.

But putting so much bias on anchor weight can lead one astray. Most important is design .. not weight. Worth repeating design not weight. And an anchor 10% heavier on anchor A dos’nt mean a 10% increase in weight of anchor B will render the same increase in performance. But it could turn out that way. Variables
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 05:52 PM   #10
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 5,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
I always like to go larger than the manufacturer recommended size. Assuming the windlass can handle the weight and the anchor will fit in the pulpit.
There's a good hint in this post. I do suspect some sellers take their good anchor with them for next boat. But can't take windlass and rode which are harder and more expensive to replace. The OP is looking at listings for trawlers and this information is seldom provided, but I'd be more concerned with rode chain size and windlass capacity than anchor size. OP is on Bahamas with shallow anchorages so may not be a big deal, but chain length may also be important depending on intended cruising grounds.

Sturdy ground tackle system for a 40-ish foot boat (sail or trawler) with windlass, rode, and anchor will run $5k-$6k plus install. Unless the original owner intended on cruising, an easy place to cut corners. Have to look at the entire system, not just the components. That said, i doubt many undersized anchors are backed by adequate rode and windlass

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 06:47 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
City: Jacksonville
Join Date: Mar 2023
Posts: 227
well I added the cost of an 80-100 pound new generation anchor to my spreadsheet as so far I have not read a listing of a boat that caught my attention having anything close to an adequate anchor

thanks
Don L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 07:57 PM   #12
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,025
I have a 73 pound Rocna with 3/8" all chain rhode on my 45' trawler.

To some degree, where you anchor (mud, sand, etc.) has an impact on size (Chesapeake Bay as an example). Whether running all chain or a combination rhode is also a factor. Finally, there's scope. I'm old school 7:1 or more depending on conditions.

While I'm sure you have lots of experience anchoring offshore. Most trawlers are probably anchored in more protected areas or tied to the dock. While I anchor out most of the time, it's rare to be in over 2' seas and almost always land is up wind less than a mile.

I sleep well at night.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2023, 10:40 PM   #13
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 3,278
Had a Rocna on the sailboat and now a Vulcan in the trawler. Our first purchase refitting was the Vulcan. Think cruising sailboats anchor out more. And agree with OC usually due to less draft in more protected situations. No hard data just an opinion.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2023, 06:03 AM   #14
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Had a Rocna on the sailboat and now a Vulcan in the trawler. Our first purchase refitting was the Vulcan. Think cruising sailboats anchor out more. And agree with OC usually due to less draft in more protected situations. No hard data just an opinion.
I think that's part of it. I think most trawlers tend to have a higher center of gravity and are less comfortable in seas at anchor. Other than staterooms at the waterline, trawlers tend to have common area living spaces higher above the waterline than sailboats do. I much prefer my saloon over the average sailboat, but not in seas at anchor.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2023, 06:24 AM   #15
Guru
 
ranger58sb's Avatar
 
City: Annapolis
Vessel Name: Ranger
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don L View Post
So why does it seem, based on boat listings, that a 40-45# trawler will have a 35-50# CQR or a similar sized plow anchor? This boat weight MUCH more and have more windage than my sailboat.

Is it just that they don't cruise and stay on anchor a lot? Does this go along with the low engine hours I have noted? It is that the bow just isn't designed to hold a bigger anchor?

What anchors are your anchor out type cruiser with 40-45' trawlers using?

Never mind I found some old threads and don't want to start a new flame battle. If you want to answer and discuss that is great.

Yeah, much like Peter said, there are cruisers (not so much) and then there are really cruisers.

Former maybe marina hop instead of anchoring, or maybe only anchor in wonderful weather, or maybe haven't anchored enough to experience drag and reset, or maybe have never heard the word "windage," or maybe believed the boat manufacturer had a clue when they fitted the OEM anchor (very commonly an undersized Delta, around here), or maybe believed the anchor manufacturer who described their 4-lb wonder as perfect for the Titanic...

Fixable, once you get your boat.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA
ranger58sb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2023, 06:27 AM   #16
Guru
 
ranger58sb's Avatar
 
City: Annapolis
Vessel Name: Ranger
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
The whole question in post 1 is wrong.
It’s design not weight.

I don't think Don's original question is at all about design or weight.

I think he's asking instead about why unsuitable anchors are so prevalent.

(My interpretation, anyway.)

Suitable is probably nuanced. Unsuitable is more easily categorized.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA
ranger58sb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2023, 07:45 AM   #17
Member
 
City: Newmarket
Vessel Name: Confirmed Aquaholic
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 14
Our original anchor on our 1999 Bayliner 4788, ~45,000# all in, was 45# CQR, dragged the first evening we used it and there wasn't even that much wind, skedaddled to a marina before it got dark. Upgraded to a Mantus 85# with same windlass and 5/16" all chain rode. Never had an issue but then started thinking that in a big blow, i.e. 50knot winds we need more per Mantus. Their 'storm' anchor recommendation was a 105#, we upgraded to 3/8" G4 chain and new windlass. Being out in the Bahamas didn't want to take a chance and in the past few weeks have had several 40+knot storms go through. Sleep well at night.


I too am stunned at the small sizing of anchors, especially SS, on significant size boats. Lots of people at our marina raft up overnight and then expect two anchors to support 4-6+ boats overnight. Something we never do is raft together if at all possible. I suspect none of them think they'll ever be out at night in a blow, all sailors must be prepared for such an eventuality.



https://www.mantusmarine.com/mantus-...9a45348992a4d6
Graeme Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2023, 07:52 AM   #18
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 6,659
A lot of boats come with the "it needs an anchor so we can sell it" anchor from the factory. And then many never get upgraded, as a lot of people just don't anchor out, or only for a few hours at a time during the day. They either don't travel, or they just marina hop.

My own boat was originally equipped (37 years ago) with a spectacularly tiny 13 pound CQR on the bow. This is on a 38 foot boat that weighs about 27k lbs loaded. It wasn't even sufficient to hold the boat through a tide change with a 1/2 knot current and no wind... That was then replaced with a Fortress G-23 (still too small, but that's aboard for use as a stern anchor). When I got the boat I replaced the original under-powered rope-only windlass with a much bigger unit (Maxwell HRC10-8) and put a 73lb Rocna Vulcan on the bow. The boat made it to 33 years old before ever having adequate ground tackle installed, as it had never previously needed it much (the boat had probably spent less than 20 nights at anchor in 33 years).
rslifkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2023, 08:18 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
City: Jacksonville
Join Date: Mar 2023
Posts: 227
One of the things I didn't mention:

In photos as I "shop" boats a lot of them have 2 anchors on the bow, a "big" one and small one. Seems most of time they are both CQRs that look to have been used, but even the "big" is way too small IMO.

My 41' sailboat came from the factory with a 44# Delta. That was soooo much more anchor than I am seeing on 40-45' trawlers.

Oh well, everything on boats can be fixed with the proper application of CASH
Don L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2023, 08:24 AM   #20
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 6,659
Generally I look at anchors, fenders, and dock lines the same way I look at tires or brake pads on a car: it'll come with them, but by default I assume they're going to be junk I'll want to replace immediately. If I find one for sale that contains any of those items that end up being something I actually want to keep and use, that's a bonus.
rslifkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012