All Chain vs Chain and Line Anchor Rode

[dhays]

Yeah, excellent point. Dyneema is hard to cut end the best of conditions.

Some great suggestions, I’ll play around with it. Usually, I’m worried about fouled ground in crowded anchorages. It is the less used locations (often for a reason) that I think I’m at more risk of getting my anchor fouled. However, I did watch a sailboat struggle to get an anchor up in Secret Cove a few years ago.

Crowded anchorages an anchor marker is nice but there I want a light and easily broken line for the reasons you mention.

Your idea of using a light line to hold the buoy and use it as a messenger to pass a stronger line in the event of a stuck anchor is an intriguing one as well.

Wow, major fail on this post. I must be getting old(er).

Corrections:

-Dyneema is hard to cut IN the best of conditions.

-Usually, I’m NOT worried about fouled ground in crowded anchorages.

-IN crowded anchorages an anchor marker is nice but there I want a light and easily broken line for the reasons you mention.

 

[dhays]

You'd have to work pretty hard to foul it in someone's props, and you can't foul it in your own

A few months ago I woke up and spotted a very nice Sarca Excel anchor in about 8 feet of water a few feet off my stern. Took me a while to figure out that it was MY anchor. Due to the wind picking up I laid out enough scope to secure me at high tide.

 

[Peter B]

The thought that you can't or rarely does someone else foul your buoy line sure doesn't ring with the many, many experience cruisers who plead that you think long and hard on using a buoyed trip line.

I know from assistance towing that working around lines in the water is an iffy thing no matter how careful one is.

Following this subject and the issues raised, prompts me to remind folk of the anti-foul trip slot of the Super Sarca. And, although some have expressed concerns it might trip at the wrong time, from personal experience, (as opposed to hearsay), I never had this happen in 14 years of use, but was thankful of the ability to back it out from something fouling it on the bottom without the need to use a trip-line, or any other extraordinary measures. Just sayin'

PS. I should state I have absolutely no pecuniary interest in this anchor, but felt moved to mention as it is just so damned good, and now available in North America. The name is derived from the sentence Sand And Rock Combination Anchor...
http://www.anchorright.com.au/products/sarca-anchors/

 

[ranger58sb]

PS. I should state I have absolutely no pecuniary interest in this anchor, but felt moved to mention as it is just so damned good, and now available in North America. The name is derived from the sentence Sand And Rock Combination Anchor...

That's one reason I've kind of mentally discounted those for use here in our mud/slime/goop/soup.

Pretty sure they weren't included in the Fortress mud testing that was done around here a few years ago...

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s42/chesapeake-anchor-holding-power-test-15941.html

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

Chris...I wouldn't worry too much about NEXGEN anchors not holding in the Chesapeake....


My Manson Supreme never drug after a decent set (may require changing spots a bit or looking for a good holding bottom on the chart, not just general anchorage items)...even in the Solomons area many times.


The Supreme also has both a slot, plus a more permanent connection point.

 

[Art]

That's one reason I've kind of mentally discounted those for use here in our mud/slime/goop/soup.

Pretty sure they weren't included in the Fortress mud testing that was done around here a few years ago...

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s42/chesapeake-anchor-holding-power-test-15941.html

-Chris

Same here... re muddy bottom in SF Delta.

I again looked at their website and can't see reason to alter from a Fortress [when rigged in its increased flukes to shank angle; specifically for soft bottoms] that digs in and holds well in this mud where I consistently anchor. If I were to change our general boating location that entailed different bottom material composition, or go a cruise that takes us well away from mud bottom, I can see having a SARCA aboard.

 

[Mako]

An important question when it comes to picking an anchor is what is your budget?

When I read that Fortress test I see it as a great selling point for a good ole fashioned Danforth. They have the same holding power as the Fortress at 32 degrees but can be picked up for a fraction the cost. If you're good with a welder then you could alter one to 45 degrees easily. Or just buy a bigger one. I picked up a 110lb and also a 60lb for my previous boat for pennies on the dollar at a ship salvage yard.

 

[psneeld]

If you read that test...you wouldn't know which anchor.... would do what.... under conditions normal boaters usually see.


The results were picked pretty closely by experienced anchors even before the test was run...based on how/where the testing was going to be done and by whom sponsored it and the slanted test criteria.

 

[Art]

An important question when it comes to picking an anchor is what is your budget?

When I read that Fortress test I see it as a great selling point for a good ole fashioned Danforth. They have the same holding power as the Fortress at 32 degrees but can be picked up for a fraction the cost. If you're good with a welder then you could alter one to 45 degrees easily. Or just buy a bigger one. I picked up a 110lb and also a 60lb for my previous boat for pennies on the dollar at a ship salvage yard.

Reason for Fortress instead of heavy Danforth is considerable weight reduction...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Unless you have a light, really low windage boat, that's not the case with all chain at 30 knots. Been there done that. Statement is more valid at 15 to 20 maybe, depending on boat, certainly the rope rode part is. Been there and done that too. We definitely agree on all chain being the preferred set up if the boat will handle it.

Cal,
Look at Steve’s anchor setting vids and notice that most or all anchors when a load is applied to the rode the anchor shank rotates downward. Even if the rode looks like it should pull the anchor into a position whereas the fluke is parallel to the tight rode. It just seems logical and to discover that it’s not so is the most important thing I’ve learned from Steve’s vids.

The shank pitches down because (my opinion) the two acting forces are the pull on the anchor and the resistance of the anchor. Since the resistance (at least initially) comes from the toe or tip of the fluke making some penetration and at that point the resistance from the lowest point on the anchor (the tip) causes the whole anchor to pitch downward. A very very important part of the setting dynamics. And if there is too much throat angle the tip in the seafloor will be at too steep an angle forfurther penetration and the anchor will break-out during early setting. But penetration should continue if the angle of the blade (fkuke) is low (shallow) enough. Think of whittling a wood stick w a knife. But if the angle is too shallow penetration is assured but sufficient resistance won’t happen unless deeper penetration takes place ... with the right amount of throat angle.

 

[BruceK]

That's one reason I've kind of mentally discounted those for use here in our mud/slime/goop/soup.

Pretty sure they weren't included in the Fortress mud testing that was done around here a few years ago...

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s42/chesapeake-anchor-holding-power-test-15941.html

-Chris

Be assured the Super Sarca works just fine in mud. In "soup" though, no idea. I suggest checking the SV Panope tests published on TF, not just for Sarca results, there were several others that fared well, and some that did not.

 

[ranger58sb]

Chris...I wouldn't worry too much about NEXGEN anchors not holding in the Chesapeake....

My Manson Supreme never drug after a decent set (may require changing spots a bit or looking for a good holding bottom on the chart, not just general anchorage items)...even in the Solomons area many times.

The Supreme also has both a slot, plus a more permanent connection point.

Sure, but... the SuperMAX is the only newgen anchor I have any hands-on with, so all I have to go on is our own experience... anchor tests by the various companies... and videos/photos by Steve and Noelex... etc.

Given the Fortress tests of the Danforth, Fortress, and Delta anchors mirrors exactly what we've experienced with those around here... I can assume (until dis-proven) that their tests might semi-closely predict what might happen with some of the other products.

I'm thinking about if extreme weather were to put more strain on the whole system than our normal pleasant nights on the hook, though. There were lots of times one of our Deltas held just fine... and I'd expect any of the other designs to do that too... until they don't.

In any case, my comment about the SARCA and mud wasn't meant as a pejorative... just a guess based on a few shape similarities to other anchors... and Anchor Right's name for the thing. If they had named is Sand and Rock and Mud Combination Anchor (SARAMCA?) I'd have considered it more closely.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

When I read that Fortress test I see it as a great selling point for a good ole fashioned Danforth. They have the same holding power as the Fortress at 32 degrees but can be picked up for a fraction the cost. If you're good with a welder then you could alter one to 45 degrees easily. Or just buy a bigger one. I picked up a 110lb and also a 60lb for my previous boat for pennies on the dollar at a ship salvage yard.

Reason for Fortress instead of heavy Danforth is considerable weight reduction...

Both good points. We've had good luck with Danforth anchors, but...

I made a conscious decision to use anchors I can lift manually, as for if the electric windlass craps out. In my case, that has gradually with age (mine) worked it's weight downward to about 50-lbs max.

A 50-lb Fortress is actually huge, much larger than a same-weight Danforth... and around here, usually mud, sometimes slime/soup, bigger flukes are equally important as more weight.

And then there's the angle adjustment; a permanently modified Danforth at 45° would be OK sometimes... maybe not so much, other times. So do I want two heavier Danforths, one at the original 32° and another modified to 45°? Not really; there's only so much storage space on our boat, and cutting into the beverage space isn't part of my plan...



-Chris

 

[Art]

IMO...

"Dropping" [manner of deploying] the anchor; then "setting"[manner of digging in] the anchor is as important as the specific type/design of an anchor.

Some people like to push a button and splush: Anchor leaves the pulpit, splashes onto water surface, travels quickly downward and soon hits bottom [ka boom]. Then by tidal current, wind or reverse gear their boat backs away from point of anchor contact with bottom to eventual position where rode has been extended for desired scope. Then, they either shut engine off and consider the task of anchoring completed or they may back up a bit by power to try and set the anchor before shutting down engine.

I like to think of myself as an anchor setting "whisperer": Wherein I like to gently [at reduced rode deployment speed] hand deploy anchors. That is... with boat in reverse and moving slowly backward I like to first make sure the anchor reaches water in correct position for its intended design to be in the attitude/direction that can set it into the surface of the bottom when it first reaches the bottom. As boat slowly backs away I continue deploying rode with ample tension on it so that the anchor's flukes act as sails in the water and before hitting bottom have already created the effect of scope so the anchor is pre set into position for digging into the bottom's surface strata. By feel of the rode in my hands [i.e. rode's tension/pull against my hand over hand slide grip] it is easy to tell when anchor has made contact with the bottom. From that juncture [feeling that my careful, gentle deployment method has successfully enabled the anchor to be in correct position for digging into the bottom] I continue feeding out rode until scope I deem correct has been reached.

Then a my boats backs down by gradually applying more engine power to fully set the anchor into bottom. Once the anchor's set set has been accomplished to my satisfaction - The Party Can Begin!

BTW, in hand deploying rode I wear good set of nimble gloves... hate to have my hands become abraded for no good reason.

 

[caltexflanc]

Art:
Amen, Amen, Amen!
Tell it brother!

 

[koliver]

IMO...


BTW, in hand deploying rode I wear good set of nimble gloves... hate to have my hands become abraded for no good reason.

In training as part of RCMSAR readiness, wearing gloves while line handling (any line handling) is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.
Just imagine getting your glove between a line in tension and an immovable object, cleat, windlass, bow chock, and the damage done to whatever body part is first to the hard places.

Always remove your gloves when handling lines.

 

[MurrayM]

In training as part of RCMSAR readiness, wearing gloves while line handling (any line handling) is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.
Just imagine getting your glove between a line in tension and an immovable object, cleat, windlass, bow chock, and the damage done to whatever body part is first to the hard places.

Always remove your gloves when handling lines.

Art wears the gloves linked below. As I understand it, they are rip-away, much like all of his attire: https://www.partycity.com/ca/fingerless-leopard-print-gloves-447485.html

 

[Art]

Art wears the gloves linked below. As I understand it, they are rip-away, much like all of his attire: https://www.partycity.com/ca/fingerless-leopard-print-gloves-447485.html

I'll order 5 pair!!

 

[Art]

In training as part of RCMSAR readiness, wearing gloves while line handling (any line handling) is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.
Just imagine getting your glove between a line in tension and an immovable object, cleat, windlass, bow chock, and the damage done to whatever body part is first to the hard places.

Always remove your gloves when handling lines.

Me thinks that persons of the Royal Canadian Marine Search and Rescue encounter more complicated and difficult as well as very different criteria of hand use with lines than that of my slowly/gently letting out rode!

 

[Nomad Willy]

Over the years owning a variety of boats I have found that 2 things, the anchor/chain and the engine are undersized from the factory. Engine size mostly noticeable in smaller craft when loaded have trouble getting on plane.
I like twin engine boats, now have twin 120 Lehman, but was surprised a little to find that single engine models had only one such engine, that seems underpowered.

Anchor/chain size does not anticipate conditions other than calm or light winds as most boaters are fair weather. I bought a boat a few years ago and asked the seller if he anchored (noting size of anchor and chain). He said not often because he felt uncomfortable when his boat had dragged the anchor. My first purchase was an anchor and heavier chain twice boat length. Thereafter the anchor set remained in place. One time two boats tied alongside, 3 on one anchor during the day, never moved but we separated and slept with our own anchors down.
I usually drop anchor, back off laying out chain until I feel the last of the chain land on bottom and tie off. Check tide, add number of feet of line and sleep well. (under ideal conditions of course)

Soo Valley,
Absolutely right about the anchors on new boats. We moore by a prominent trawler manufacturer and they all come w what look like not very big Claw anchors.

BUT ..
I think you’re absolutely wrong about power. There are very few trawlers that are correctly powered and nearly impossible to fine one underpowered. Trawler boats are almost always too heavy for regular cruising speeds exceeding one knot over hull speed. And weight is the most defining element of what makes a trawler. The predecessors of trawlers were called heavy cruisers.

So IMO you’ve got it backwards. Makes me wonder what kind of boats you’re used-to. But planing is my guess.

But I like the fact that you’re analytical like myself.
Makes for good meaningful conversation.
Welcome to TF.

 

[Peter B]

.......In any case, my comment about the SARCA and mud wasn't meant as a pejorative... just a guess based on a few shape similarities to other anchors... and Anchor Right's name for the thing. If they had named is Sand and Rock and Mud Combination Anchor (SARAMCA?) I'd have considered it more closely. -Chris

Chris, in my experience using the S-Sarca, (now considerable), mud, even very soft, creates more drag than sand, so I guess that's why they didn't call it a SARAMCA. Just sayin'...

 

[ranger58sb]

Chris, in my experience using the S-Sarca, (now considerable), mud, even very soft, creates more drag than sand, so I guess that's why they didn't call it a SARAMCA. Just sayin'...

Around here, sometimes "mud" means soup, slime, etc. You can sometimes swim through it... no extra drag at all...



-Chris

 

[clyde]

we have an older 40 ft power boat, 40,000 lbs plus, and a 50 Lb bruce copy anchor. 100 ft of normal triple B chain, and 250 ft of 5/8 3 strand, normal anchor line, that i can splice! [not braided] long ago, i installed a commercial hydrolic 'on deck' anchor winch, the swivel is at the anchor/chain connection, and the rope/chain is connected together via a rope/chain back splice. the system works great! the 50 Lb bruce copy is 6" longer, and abt 3" wider...sets great, and holds! our normal 44 bruce is our spare!...clyde

 

[dhays]

we have an older 40 ft power boat, 40,000 lbs plus, and a 50 Lb bruce copy anchor. 100 ft of normal triple B chain, and 250 ft of 5/8 3 strand, normal anchor line, that i can splice! [not braided] long ago, i installed a commercial hydrolic 'on deck' anchor winch, the swivel is at the anchor/chain connection, and the rope/chain is connected together via a rope/chain back splice. the system works great! the 50 Lb bruce copy is 6" longer, and abt 3" wider...sets great, and holds! our normal 44 bruce is our spare!...clyde

Great setup!

 

[Nomad Willy]

clyde,
What “copy” of the Bruce do you have?

I see “Port Ochard” ... what marina do you use?

 

[BruceK]

Art wears the gloves linked below. As I understand it, they are rip-away, much like all of his attire: https://www.partycity.com/ca/fingerless-leopard-print-gloves-447485.html

Very smart gloves!
After a nasty deep all chain hand retrieve,we keep leather faced gardening gloves onboard in case the windlass fails again. No obvious risk of getting caught up, the only moving parts are hands, but anything is possible.

 

[Kirwan]

Adding some data points.....
On my sailboat (28', 8000#), I have to use minimal chain and mostly rope rode because of weight (and no windlass). The 10kg Rocna was a gem in SF mud, but Poseidon just wouldn't give it up. I picked up a Delta but it's tricky to set right. Once, after pulling it up for the third time, my nephew turned and said 'What else you got?"... we slept on the Danforth that night. Then again, I've spent nights with 40 knots of wind on the Delta.

On this boat, I do use a small kellet to keep the rope from wrapping around the keel during current reversals (set just above the bottom). But I have no illusions that it does much to help with holding - or sailing at anchor, or shock absorption; The rope rode goes pretty bar tight with any wind. Doing the vector math on the kellet, it's clear that unless it's really heavy, the beneficial effect is dwarfed by the other forces. Upthread, somebody mentioned floating anchor line, but that sounds like a recipe for fouling to me.

 

[Nomad Willy]

With an 8000lb boat anchoring by hand should be a breeze.
We have a 16000lb Willard and for years anchored w 13 to 22lb anchors. Got along fine but there may have been a bit of luck especially in Alaska summer gales (50 knots).
Now we have a planetary driven capstan. The latest capstan is FAR quieter than the first.
Been anchoring lately w anchors a little over 20lbs with way more holding power than we would ever need. I use about 4’ of 3/8ths chain and 5/8ths nylon brait line. The only problem I have is that the line tends to “walk” over to the port side of the drum. Now and then the line sorta ties itself into a sort-of clove hitch. My moment to practice cussing. Usually it dosn't though as I always pull to stbd.

The capstan is made and marketed by Endurance Marine in SW BC Canada. 4-500$ ?

Re anchors there’s quite a few better than the Delta.
The SARCA that I’ve been trying out (21lbs) may be perfect for your mud bottoms. The next size smaller may be fine too w your boat size.
The SARCA is the best (I think) for mud for several reasons. Wanna go minimum cost Mark in the SF Delta mud does fine w his Claw. Buy on CL for best price. A Manson Supreme 15 is actually 18lbs and would work really well for you but they bring up plenty of mud. If there’s any left they have been 75% off at WM. OK if you had/have a washdown system. I don’t. Almost never had a mud issue in Alaska but here in Washington state .. more mud.

I have a 12lb kellet that I’ve not used.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

all chain rode

Not sure if this all chain rode will hold... about 3 shots of 3" chain and 1/2 shot of 4" chain with 25,000 lb anchor set out for Golden Ray..... We connected this to the ships existing chain ( pulled about a shot out of ship with tug). Cut the ships anchor off....
Eric may want to remodel the flukes a bit.