All Chain vs Chain and Line Anchor Rode

[ranger58sb]

Chris,
The flattest one re post 111 is probably 32 degrees.

Wouldn't surprise me, nor would it surprise me if the least flat angle is about 45°. That would also suggest the center angle is somewhere in between, and likely why we've never really had to make the adjustment, even here in the slime.

I just had a quick look on the SuperMAX website, didn't find a spec for angle. Maybe @SteveBedford might notice this and comment... and/or add that kind of info to his website.

-Chris

 

[Art]

Doubt a kellet would be of great help. Little on chain, but some more help on rope. Still, think the kellet effectiveness requires a lot of weight. ... My all-chain, 3/8-inch rode stretches nearly straight in the typical 2.5 mph current here. But my knock-off bruce holds right. Here on a flooded island with no current:

Sinking a Myth – The Anchor Kellet [good diagrams down the page]

Sinking a Myth – The Anchor Kellet

 

[Nomad Willy]

Not very scientific Art;
Says a Danforth and a CQR don’t hold well. Everybody else in the world knows they do. The CQR seems to have plenty of setting problems but sized and set well they do hold well. I was in a 50knot gale w two other boats and one had a CQR. A sailboat about 43 feet long. It held well all night long in that scream’in wind.

He has a point that when you need it most it may be ineffective. If it’s too light that would be true but how would one know?
I think he’s selling someth’in ... probably some anchor brand.

 

[Art]

Not very scientific Art;
Says a Danforth and a CQR don’t hold well. Everybody else in the world knows they do. The CQR seems to have plenty of setting problems but sized and set well they do hold well. I was in a 50knot gale w two other boats and one had a CQR. A sailboat about 43 feet long. It held well all night long in that scream’in wind.

He has a point that when you need it most it may be ineffective. If it’s too light that would be true but how would one know?
I think he’s selling someth’in ... probably some anchor brand.

I didn't read the link fully. Thought the diagrams were interesting.

 

[psneeld]

But there in lies the problem. Diagrams can be interpreted....often extremely to the incorrect just from minor inaccuracies in the diagram.



Any science, any real life numbers?


Anyone with a computer and a pencil for diagrams is an expert on anchoring via the Internet.


Most people that did well in school and have a lifetime of REAL anchoring know most of these anchoring threads are full of thin air no matter the testing claimed.


Sure some is true, makes sense what not...but a lot doesn't.

 

[dhays]

If it makes you feel better Dave, in 16 years of anchoring with my Super Sarca, all over Moreton Bay here in Queensland, and on many types of bottom, from clean sand to weapons grade mud, I never, repeat never, ever, even thought about dragging out the rather large Danforth I kept (original second by PO), in the lazaret.

I’m not worried about the anchor not performing, but getting fouled on abandoned log boom gear etc... and having to cut the anchor loose. I’d then be stuck without an anchor in areas that require anchoring.

If it wasn’t for the high price tag, I’d like to have the Sarca Excel that breaks down. It would be easily stowed out of the way until needed and in two pieces would be easier to get up on deck.

 

[Art]

But there in lies the problem. Diagrams can be interpreted....often extremely to the incorrect just from minor inaccuracies in the diagram.



Any science, any real life numbers?


Anyone with a computer and a pencil for diagrams is an expert on anchoring via the Internet.


Most people that did well in school and have a lifetime of REAL anchoring know most of these anchoring threads are full of thin air no matter the testing claimed.


Sure some is true, makes sense what not...but a lot doesn't.

Agreed...

As I imagine you and most experienced boaters do - I too use my decades of personally learned/experienced, repeatedly tested methods of anchoring.

Willing to read, watch and listen to others' anchoring accounts. Occasionally do pick up a bit of previously unknown to me wisdom on techniques or paraphernalia/equipment used.

 

[izikalvo]

FWIW I owned a Pilot 34 for five years. But no matter, my comments are applicable to anyone who cruises in varied waters:


Chain has several big advantages:


1. The chain feeds easily into the windlass and down in the chain locker. I have yet to see a chain to rope splice that retrieved without human intervention.


2. Chain provides more weight to keep the shank of the anchor parallel with the bottom for better holding power.


3. Chain does not break if you wrap it around a rock and tug and pull on it all night long.


Some cons:


1. Chain is heavy. But your boat will be fine with 250' or so of 1/4" G4.


2. Chain costs more.


So go with the chain. Maybe only 200' backed with 150' of nylon for the really deep anchorages.



David

Bingo!!

 

[ranger58sb]

1. I have yet to see a chain to rope splice that retrieved without human intervention.

??

FWIW, I've never had any issue with this...

Ours is 8-plait spliced to chain... both sized properly for the gypsy...

-Chris

 

[MurrayM]

I’m not worried about the anchor not performing, but getting fouled on abandoned log boom gear etc... and having to cut the anchor loose. I’d then be stuck without an anchor in areas that require anchoring.

If it wasn’t for the high price tag, I’d like to have the Sarca Excel...

When we first started boating I was in Prince Rupert and had a chat with the owner of Sea Sport Marine about the new SHHP (Super High Holding Power) anchors.

He let me go on for a bit with a tired "heard all this crap before" look in his eye, then nodded towards a pile of Lewmar Claws in the corner and said, "Yeah, well, I get a lot of repeat customers".

Bays to anchor in around here are pretty spread out, so there are old log booming debris and coils of discarded cable in many anchorages. We had a close call in Barnard Harbour, where Badger stopped on a dime while backing down to set the anchor. It came up easy, but that was enough of a scare to rethink the expensive anchor idea.

On the Genuine Bruce sizing chart a 22lb anchor should hold our boat in a 47 knot wind in a bottom with good holding and no pounding waves. We've been in a pretty exposed location in gusting to 25 knot winds and our 22lb Lewmar Claw held like a champ.

We'll ramp it up to the 33lb Claw once we start cruising in late fall, early spring, and sometimes winter when the weather looks good. I'd love a Sarca Excel, but there's that lingering doubt every time we drop the hook, not knowing if it'll ever come up again.

 

[wkearney99]

He let me go on for a bit with a tired "heard all this crap before" look in his eye, then nodded towards a pile of Lewmar Claws in the corner and said, "Yeah, well, I get a lot of repeat customers".

That's funny. "Local knowledge" helps.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Murray wrote;
“I'd love a Sarca Excel, but there's that lingering doubt every time we drop the hook, not knowing if it'll ever come up again.”

Just rig up a trip line when in doubt.

 

[caltexflanc]

Murray wrote;
“I'd love a Sarca Excel, but there's that lingering doubt every time we drop the hook, not knowing if it'll ever come up again.”

Just rig up a trip line when in doubt.

Exactly!!!

 

[Nomad Willy]

Qoute;

“Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
FWIW I owned a Pilot 34 for five years. But no matter, my comments are applicable to anyone who cruises in varied waters:


Chain has several big advantages:


1. The chain feeds easily into the windlass and down in the chain locker. I have yet to see a chain to rope splice that retrieved without human intervention.


2. Chain provides more weight to keep the shank of the anchor parallel with the bottom for better holding power.


3. Chain does not break if you wrap it around a rock and tug and pull on it all night long.


Some cons:


1. Chain is heavy. But your boat will be fine with 250' or so of 1/4" G4.


2. Chain costs more.


So go with the chain. Maybe only 200' backed with 150' of nylon for the really deep anchorages.”

My response,
1. Chain goes down but does it come up? Heard much talk about hockling and knocking chain piles over. While your drifting and trying to get it up .. smirk.

2. Chain is heavy and the chain close to the anchor aids the catenary situation so much that almost nobody ever would anchor a sizable boat w/o some chain. But the majority of chain on an all chain rig does little or no good to catenary but being far fwd on the boat it helps turn your boat into a submarine in headseas. Ever notice that spray on your windshield? Maybe most or all of it wouldn’t be there if you didn’t have so much. The question isn’t is chain good or bad but how much does enough good to warrant pack’in it everywhere you go. Seen many trawlers bow heavy plowing a big bow wave.

But in minimal (that’s the only measure that objectively applies to how much) amounts chain is a skippers friend to be sure.
And truthfully I’ve never spliced and don’t know how hard it is to deal with. But many on TF seem to have little or no trouble.

That’s what I have to say today from Port Neville BC Canada.

 

[O C Diver]

My response,
1. Chain goes down but does it come up? Heard much talk about hockling and knocking chain piles over. While your drifting and trying to get it up .. smirk.

2. Chain is heavy and the chain close to the anchor aids the catenary situation so much that almost nobody ever would anchor a sizable boat w/o some chain. But the majority of chain on an all chain rig does little or no good to catenary but being far fwd on the boat it helps turn your boat into a submarine in headseas. Ever notice that spray on your windshield? Maybe most or all of it wouldn’t be there if you didn’t have so much. The question isn’t is chain good or bad but how much does enough good to warrant pack’in it everywhere you go. Seen many trawlers bow heavy plowing a big bow wave.

But in minimal (that’s the only measure that objectively applies to how much) amounts chain is a skippers friend to be sure.
And truthfully I’ve never spliced and don’t know how hard it is to deal with. But many on TF seem to have little or no trouble.

That’s what I have to say today from Port Neville BC Canada.

Regarding #1:
Not all boats have a long enough drop from windlass to chain pile to prevent the problem. When you get over 75' it's rare almost non existent to see combination rodes, so all chain is very reliable when done correctly.
BTW, are you going to tell us that anchor rope never gets tangled up?

#2:
The more chain in feet you have dragging on the bottom when the anchor is trying to reset, the greater the chances for success. When you're drifting at several knots in 30+ knot winds, all your anchor rope is scoping upward along with much of your short piece of chain. That doesn't happen with 7:1 scope all chain.
As to chain weight: Some boats, probably yours (no offense intended), are too small to carry the weight of the right amount of chain for the places you anchor. Others are poorly designed and can't trim with the weight. That doesn't speak to whether all chain rode is good or bad in general.

Simply, all chain is the standard until a vessel gets to small to makes it realistic or cost of windlass and chain relative to vessel makes it prohibitive.

Ted

 

[ranger58sb]

My response,
1. Heard much talk about hockling and knocking chain piles over. While your drifting and trying to get it up .. smirk.

Never experienced a problem like that, either. Maybe due to depth of rope (rode) lockers...

-Chris

 

[caltexflanc]

When you're drifting at several knots in 30+ knot winds, all your anchor rope is scoping upward along with much of your short piece of chain. That doesn't happen with 7:1 scope all chain.

Unless you have a light, really low windage boat, that's not the case with all chain at 30 knots. Been there done that. Statement is more valid at 15 to 20 maybe, depending on boat, certainly the rope rode part is. Been there and done that too. We definitely agree on all chain being the preferred set up if the boat will handle it.

Somewhere in this thread I may get around to telling my kellet / Anchor Buddy stories. Yes I actually owned an Anchor Buddy. But it was the kellets my dad and uncle made up out of old anvils that make the good story.

 

[psneeld]

Size of chain makes a huge difference in caternary as well as boat windage and manners in high winds.

 

[dhays]

Murray wrote;
“I'd love a Sarca Excel, but there's that lingering doubt every time we drop the hook, not knowing if it'll ever come up again.”

Just rig up a trip line when in doubt.

I have been thinking about the best way to do it. One issue is that anchoring depths vary so much. Normally I anchor is <30’ but I have had to anchor in as much as 60’.

I have thought about 30’ of line passed through a pulley on the bottom of a float and the other end attached to a very heavy shackle that could then slide up and down the line. That would give me a range of 15’ to 30’ and wouldn’t be too bad down to 10’. That would cover most of my anchoring. Just not sure of what type of line to use. It needs to be strong enough to handle lifting the anchor and yet light enough. I was thinking about 1/8” dyneema.

 

[Peter B]

I’m not worried about the anchor not performing, but getting fouled on abandoned log boom gear etc... and having to cut the anchor loose. I’d then be stuck without an anchor in areas that require anchoring.

If it wasn’t for the high price tag, I’d like to have the Sarca Excel that breaks down. It would be easily stowed out of the way until needed and in two pieces would be easier to get up on deck.

That's why an old Danforth is good as the back-up in the lazaret Dave. They lie flat. Their saving grace, as it were...
No doubt you could pick up a nice big one cheap these days..? Way cheaper than the alloy Sarca Excel, good though that would be.

 

[dhays]

That's why an old Danforth is good as the back-up in the lazaret Dave. They lie flat. Their saving grace, as it were...

No doubt you could pick up a nice big one cheap these days..? Way cheaper than the alloy Sarca Excel, good though that would be.

Yeah, I had a Fortress as my backup in my Catalina 400. Never ended up getting it wet. An old Danforth makes sense.

 

[psneeld]

Just think before you use dyneema as a float-trip line. If that gets caught up in a prop, it's a bugger to get off.


My thinking is just use some weak, cheap line with both ends coming to the surface....if it gets run over, no big deal...



I can then hopefully run a piece of dyneema down for the pulling. The chances of loosing the buoy line and having the anchor fouled start to climb.


And alternate is to have a tied loop of dyneema (loop secured with thread) tied to the anchor and other end to the lighter line in a rig as you described. If fouled bring the light line aboard, breaking the loop to get to the dyneema loop. yes the whole thing can get sucked up, but less chance than the entire rig being dyneema.


No option I have toyed with is perfect...but you get my drift about those that strongly warn against trip lines in crowded anchorages or when you are drifting around your own trip line.

 

[MurrayM]

Just think before you use dyneema as a float-trip line. If that gets caught up in a prop, it's a bugger to get off.

My thinking is just use some weak, cheap line with both ends coming to the surface....if it gets run over, no big deal...

I can then hopefully run a piece of dyneema down for the pulling. The chances of loosing the buoy line and having the anchor fouled start to climb.

And alternate is to have a tied loop of dyneema (loop secured with thread) tied to the anchor and other end to the lighter line in a rig as you described. If fouled bring the light line aboard, breaking the loop to get to the dyneema loop. yes the whole thing can get sucked up, but less chance than the entire rig being dyneema.

No option I have toyed with is perfect...but you get my drift about those that strongly warn against trip lines in crowded anchorages or when you are drifting around your own trip line.

Think we’ll skip the whole trip line thing...sounds like a whole host of complications exactly when you don’t need them.

We’ll go with the expendable 33 lb claw, with the 22 lb claw as back up, and also keep the 14lb claw (?!!?) the PO had on Badger that’s been handy to chuck upwind while stern tied when light, steady winds were on the beam.

 

[Mako]

MurrayM, so do you often boat in areas where it is common to foul on something and therefore lose your ground tackle, or are you just concerned about it?

I suppose if fouling is common, then definitely look at your setup as "expendable" as you say. Buy big cheap anchors from ship salvagers (usually claws, danforths and homemade northills are common), attach to short chain only (half a boat length or less) and you're good to throw it away anytime

 

[SteveK]

Over the years owning a variety of boats I have found that 2 things, the anchor/chain and the engine are undersized from the factory. Engine size mostly noticeable in smaller craft when loaded have trouble getting on plane.
I like twin engine boats, now have twin 120 Lehman, but was surprised a little to find that single engine models had only one such engine, that seems underpowered.

Anchor/chain size does not anticipate conditions other than calm or light winds as most boaters are fair weather. I bought a boat a few years ago and asked the seller if he anchored (noting size of anchor and chain). He said not often because he felt uncomfortable when his boat had dragged the anchor. My first purchase was an anchor and heavier chain twice boat length. Thereafter the anchor set remained in place. One time two boats tied alongside, 3 on one anchor during the day, never moved but we separated and slept with our own anchors down.
I usually drop anchor, back off laying out chain until I feel the last of the chain land on bottom and tie off. Check tide, add number of feet of line and sleep well. (under ideal conditions of course)

 

[caltexflanc]

Think we’ll skip the whole trip line thing...sounds like a whole host of complications exactly when you don’t need them.

We’ll go with the expendable 33 lb claw, with the 22 lb claw as back up, and also keep the 14lb claw (?!!?) the PO had on Badger that’s been handy to chuck upwind while stern tied when light, steady winds were on the beam.

It's not all that bad, the key is to have a very visible buoy and size the line to the depth, either via the "pulley" weight method or just tying it off, allowing for tide swing. You'd have to work pretty hard to foul it in someone's props, and you can't foul it in your own (think about it). We used regular old poly and and only actually used it to "trip" the anchor for practice, not an actual fouling.

If in a crowded anchorage, there should hopefully be plenty of helpful boaters to assist in pulling it using other methods.

 

[dhays]

Just think before you use dyneema as a float-trip line. If that gets caught up in a prop, it's a bugger to get off.

Yeah, excellent point. Dyneema is hard to cut end the best of conditions.

Some great suggestions, I’ll play around with it. Usually, I’m worried about fouled ground in crowded anchorages. It is the less used locations (often for a reason) that I think I’m at more risk of getting my anchor fouled. However, I did watch a sailboat struggle to get an anchor up in Secret Cove a few years ago.

Crowded anchorages an anchor marker is nice but there I want a light and easily broken line for the reasons you mention.

Your idea of using a light line to hold the buoy and use it as a messenger to pass a stronger line in the event of a stuck anchor is an intriguing one as well.

 

[psneeld]

The thought that you can't or rarely does someone else foul your buoy line sure doesn't ring with the many, many experience cruisers who plead that you think long and hard on using a buoyed trip line.


I know from assistance towing that working around lines in the water is an iffy thing no matter how careful one is.

 

[MurrayM]

You'd have to work pretty hard to foul it in someone's props, and you can't foul it in your own (think about it)...

In these waters, you could. Winds are funneled either north or south by the mountains, and back eddies set up in bays because of strong currents in the really deep main channels, so it is quite possible to drift straight back over the anchor.

We’ll also be getting 600’ of 8 strand so we can anchor in 100’ or more...gets you away from the rapid drop off estuary outwash fan drying flats where anchoring is “interesting”.

 

[caltexflanc]

In these waters, you could. Winds are funneled either north or south by the mountains, and back eddies set up in bays because of strong currents in the really deep main channels, so it is quite possible to drift straight back over the anchor.

We’ll also be getting 600’ of 8 strand so we can anchor in 100’ or more...gets you away from the rapid drop off estuary outwash fan drying flats where anchoring is “interesting”.

That's interesting, having been in similar conditions. But every boat I've cruised on laid beam to the wind and thus veered to the chain from the point where it laid before the clocking. So I guess the moral is that everyone has to know how their boat behaves in relation to current and wind while on the hook with their particular ground tackle. A good idea IMO. In addition to direct observation,setting your plotter to show track and leaving it on while anchored will teach you a lot.

It's a little ironic I'm somewhat defensive here, because, as mentioned, the only times we set a trip line buoy was for practice. Otherwise the rigs stayed in a deck box for hundreds of anchorings. Including some surrounded by crab pot buoys...