Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-07-2022, 10:28 AM   #1
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,670
You are Not Qualified to have LI Batteries

For those with LI batteries.


https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/y...NqhcyAiNNe-cE8
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 10:38 AM   #2
Guru
 
KnotYet's Avatar
 
City: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 847
Loose Cannon is an appropriate moniker, at least.
__________________
Science doesn't care what you believe. -Neil deGrasse Tyson
KnotYet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 10:47 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
City: Here and there
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 426
The histrionic, pearl clutching, metaphorical, hyperbolic, finger poking writing style leaves me exhausted yet delighted the article was mercifully brief. Noticeable lack of technical details other than LI= Satan’s electrons.
Porgy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 10:53 AM   #4
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Walkabout Creek
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction View Post


Iíd say ďloose cannonĒ pretty well sums up the article and the author. Itís really easy to crap on something, and much harder to understand it and help guide others.

I agree that heís not qualified.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 11:01 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Redhook98's Avatar
 
City: Colonial Beach, VA
Vessel Name: Tatoosh
Vessel Model: 1979 49ft Marine Trader RPH
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 329
Do not take too lightly. Lithium battery training is now a requirement working for the Navy, or if you are in the Navy. There are an awful lot of issues with folks out there not understanding the difference and treating them like regular LA batteries.
__________________
"Everything on your boat is broken.... You just don't know it yet."
Redhook98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 11:02 AM   #6
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,341
Peter Swanson is an experienced marine tech and journalist. He is provocative that is for sure, but I'm not sure that is all bad. The discussion should though be specific for Li vs LFP batteries.

Will the ABYC writings on this subject, soon to be released, differentiate between Li and LFP batteries? With the chip and assorted electronics for an LFP install hitting some delivery delays I'm on hold for any changes from our old reliable never fail FLA Trojans.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 11:55 AM   #7
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,607
It is a thought-provoking article, not a white paper on the tech or installation best practices.

His point about the average boatowner installing these, well heck any battery system, can be flat out dangerous.

Me???? I am all for DIY, but how many whiners we have right here on TF that are always pointing fingers at previous owner work (when most are previous owners themselves)????

If got some here worked up and hopefully will make those that really don't understand any kind of electrical systems to pause when deciding who out there will help or repair systems that aren't quite "old hat" yet.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 12:29 PM   #8
Valued Technical Contributor
 
DavidM's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,320
I agree that the average DIYer can install FLA batteries and devices that charge and run off of them but dealing with LiFePo4 batteries takes it to another level. I have been reading, researching Li batteries for RV use. That is a much more benign application than for boats.

I have never read about an Li battery's internal BMS failing, but I suppose it is possible. I have some faith in top line manufacturer's Li batteries working well. But those that skimp on things like low temperature charging shutoff worry me.

The other issue that should affect RVers and boaters alike is that Li batteries can put too much load on the engine's alternator since Li batteries can draw many more amps while charging than LAs. No one seems to understand the ramifications of this on RV's and from what I can tell no one thinks about the ramifications for boats.

David
DavidM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 12:44 PM   #9
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Walkabout Creek
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
It is a thought-provoking article, not a white paper on the tech or installation best practices.

His point about the average boatowner installing these, well heck any battery system, can be flat out dangerous.

Me???? I am all for DIY, but how many whiners we have right here on TF that are always pointing fingers at previous owner work (when most are previous owners themselves)????

If got some here worked up and hopefully will make those that really don't understand any kind of electrical systems to pause when deciding who out there will help or repair systems that aren't quite "old hat" yet.


I donít think itís really any different than any other new thing. People need to learn about it, technicians and service companies first, and ultimately DIY folks. Over time it becomes more and more widely understood.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 12:55 PM   #10
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,607
I agree, just not that the guy did anyhing more than raise awareness in a still relatively new tech for the average boater.

Just cracks me up with the inconsistent thrusts this site often takes....
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 12:55 PM   #11
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,805
Read Calder's rebuttal on the same site.

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/b...-calder-weighs

Peter Swanson is the real deal. He didn't write the previous article, he merely posted it. It would be a disservice to disregard him outright.
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 12:57 PM   #12
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Walkabout Creek
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Peter Swanson is an experienced marine tech and journalist. He is provocative that is for sure, but I'm not sure that is all bad. The discussion should though be specific for Li vs LFP batteries.



Will the ABYC writings on this subject, soon to be released, differentiate between Li and LFP batteries? With the chip and assorted electronics for an LFP install hitting some delivery delays I'm on hold for any changes from our old reliable never fail FLA Trojans.


E-13 just completed public review and is likely to be published this summer.

It needs to be generic relative to different battery types, and accomplishes this by referencing the particular battery manufacturers guidelines for installation, ventilation, fire suppression, temperatures, charging, etc. Itís really the only way to do it and cover the. Breadth of products available, and to not become outdated too soon.

If having a computer on board is viewed as a problem, then by all means stick with lead. But by the same argument you should remove your GPS, chart plotter, radar, auto pilot, etc. And if you boat is less that 15-20 years old, toss the engine, shift and throttle controls, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff. Itís good bar room ha, ha talk, but just ridiculous in all practical manner.

Provoking? Yes. Thought provoking? Not really.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 01:45 PM   #13
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
Read Calder's rebuttal on the same site.

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/b...-calder-weighs

Peter Swanson is the real deal. He didn't write the previous article, he merely posted it. It would be a disservice to disregard him outright.
Thanks Mike. Calder has been my preferred source for all things regarding Li battery power and related systems. Our "own" TT as well is a guy worth paying attention to.

As mentioned a few months ago, my marine insurance has no issues with Li. Unfortunately surveyor Luddites on this subject abound.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 02:00 PM   #14
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
E-13 just completed public review and is likely to be published this summer.

It needs to be generic relative to different battery types, and accomplishes this by referencing the particular battery manufacturers guidelines for installation, ventilation, fire suppression, temperatures, charging, etc. It’s really the only way to do it and cover the. Breadth of products available, and to not become outdated too soon.

If having a computer on board is viewed as a problem, then by all means stick with lead. But by the same argument you should remove your GPS, chart plotter, radar, auto pilot, etc. And if you boat is less that 15-20 years old, toss the engine, shift and throttle controls, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff. It’s good bar room ha, ha talk, but just ridiculous in all practical manner.

Provoking? Yes. Thought provoking? Not really.
Put yourself in the boaters shoes that isn't even sure of the difference between AC and DC electrical current.

Every day you can go to a battery store and people are buying batteries for cars, boats, lawn equipment and they are asking "this one fits, it is a bit smaller but a lot cheaper, is it OK?".

It cracks me up that people aren't necessarily afraid of lithium batteries (whatever chem catches fire more easily than the others), but aren't EVER gonna use a city water connection. I know of plenty more fires from batteries of all types than boats sinking from a city water supply. Now THAT's thought provoking..... come'on not even a little smile?

For years I have made suggestions here only to be reminded that many are newbies and shouldn't be given advice beyond their comprehension.... maybe I have finally caved.

NOT!
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 06:18 PM   #15
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,512
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Peter Swanson is an experienced marine tech and journalist. He is provocative that is for sure, but I'm not sure that is all bad. The discussion should though be specific for Li vs LFP batteries.

Will the ABYC writings on this subject, soon to be released, differentiate between Li and LFP batteries? With the chip and assorted electronics for an LFP install hitting some delivery delays I'm on hold for any changes from our old reliable never fail FLA Trojans.





Hi Tom, Since he doesn't appear to know the differences between Lithium chemistries, or which chemistry is on boats, however experienced he is that experience doesn't extend to the subject he's giving advice on. Pretty ignorable, IMO.
__________________
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 07:57 PM   #16
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction View Post

What a piece of crap article.
This isn't the first time we have seen a self important " Qualified Marine Surveyor" run off at the mouth on a subject he obviously knows little about.


HOLLYWOOD
hollywood8118 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 08:28 PM   #17
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
E-13 just completed public review and is likely to be published this summer.

It needs to be generic relative to different battery types, and accomplishes this by referencing the particular battery manufacturers guidelines for installation, ventilation, fire suppression, temperatures, charging, etc. Itís really the only way to do it and cover the. Breadth of products available, and to not become outdated too soon.

If having a computer on board is viewed as a problem, then by all means stick with lead. But by the same argument you should remove your GPS, chart plotter, radar, auto pilot, etc. And if you boat is less that 15-20 years old, toss the engine, shift and throttle controls, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff. Itís good bar room ha, ha talk, but just ridiculous in all practical manner.

Provoking? Yes. Thought provoking? Not really.
I reread the article and agree that the article failed on some major points. My bad for some of my other posts.

I would like to see how many boat fires have started from Lithium Ion devices ....if he had only stuck with that. But it does seem that LFP batteries are as safe as any others as long as they are treated correctly. He seems to have missed that major point.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 10:03 PM   #18
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Walkabout Creek
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post

I would like to see how many boat fires have started from Lithium Ion devices ..



That's the 64,000 dollar question. CharlieJ here on TF posed exactly this question on CruisersForum where there seems to be a lot more Lithium-Ion battery activity. Nobody got cite a single account. Even the author of the article offered zero examples, and he's a surveyor and forensic investigator. If anyone would have experience, it's him. But he offered none.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2022, 11:57 PM   #19
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,805
Y'alls reading comprehension is questionable.

Peter Swanson did not write the article. His website merely hosted it.

Does no one read and investigate the by-line?

"By Jonathan Klopman"

https://www.jklopman.com/

The guy does forensic investigations in the marine industry. I think he may illogically base his opinion on his own anecdotal data and may be guilty of selection bias.

i.e. If you investigate a buttload of lithium battery fires, you may come up with the opinion that lithium batteries are bad. Of course, he doesn't investigate all the lithium batteries that work just fine.
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2022, 05:27 AM   #20
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
That's the 64,000 dollar question. CharlieJ here on TF posed exactly this question on CruisersForum where there seems to be a lot more Lithium-Ion battery activity. Nobody got cite a single account. Even the author of the article offered zero examples, and he's a surveyor and forensic investigator. If anyone would have experience, it's him. But he offered none.
Wasn't the dive boat in California blamed on LI battery charging? Wouldn't surprise me if there are more similar examples.

Granted it was not a house bank reason, but a boat fire just the same.

That was partially my comments about not defining the types of Lithium chemistry.... that he may have had a point but it got lost in the rest of the article.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012