You are Not Qualified to have LI Batteries

[Bacchus]

Rod at MarineHowTo is back online. His first effort is deep dive on LiFePO4. He's bullish on them- "lead is dead!"

https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

Peter

Agree he's bullish but I get the strong message that they are far from "drop in" in most situations and a proper "system" not for a novice DIY.
Glad to see he is progressing and back to contributing his knowledge.

 

[OldDan1943]

I admit, the Li is beyond me and I have enough trouble retaining things I should.
Granted, the 2 nuclear subs had lead acid batteries, I work in nuclear main propulsion and nothing close to the battery (2 compartments from the engine room) I do recall the sub had 1 battery consisting of 126 cells.
The first boat I owned N46 had AGm batteries .... 8Ds so when I replaced them they sent 2 or 3 hulking guys out with the new batteries.... to remove and replace the batteries. This AT34 comes standard 3x4Ds, 2x4Ds for houses and one for starting. I added one more, 3x4Ds for house bank. Thanks to the parallel switch, I have my bases covered. Oh, the generator has a stand alone start battery. It maybe old technology but, no kinks in the operations, no real or steep leaning curve. I guess I will leave that for the next/younger owner.
To put it bluntly, I am too old and brain dead to move to Li batteries.

 

[CharlieJ]

@psneeld #20: Your post is conflating information...a common occurrence in the lithium battery regime.
The last info I read, and I believe it was from the NTSB or USCG as reported in GCaptain, is that the cause of the fire on the dive boat was a failed lithium battery being charged at a charging station in the galley with many other batteries. Included in the battery mix were camera batteries, laptops and phones.

NONE of these are the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries commonly used on boats. Yes there are other chemistries being used by the likes of Torqeedo (NMC), but those are fully engineered and refrigerant cooled batteries not something a DIY'er would normally be involved with.

So, there was a fire and terrible loss of life caused, as memory serves, by lithium batteries that are a different size, application and chemistry than the those in the subject piece by J. Klopan.

 

[psneeld]

@psneeld #20: Your post is conflating information...a common occurrence in the lithium battery regime.
The last info I read, and I believe it was from the NTSB or USCG as reported in GCaptain, is that the cause of the fire on the dive boat was a failed lithium battery being charged at a charging station in the galley with many other batteries. Included in the battery mix were camera batteries, laptops and phones.

NONE of these are the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries commonly used on boats. Yes there are other chemistries being used by the likes of Torqeedo (NMC), but those are fully engineered and refrigerant cooled batteries not something a DIY'er would normally be involved with.

So, there was a fire and terrible loss of life caused, as memory serves, by lithium batteries that are a different size, application and chemistry than the those in the subject piece by J. Klopan.

I wasn't trying to lump the 2 chemistries together and I do understand the difference.

What I was suggesting is the author somehow lumped them all together as fire starters, well they all can be if poorly installed. Had he separated the two and differentiated the dangers and system needs of both he might have had a better article.

As it was, well..... enough posters have pointed out the flaws.

 

[Mac2]

"The fire from lithium batteries cannot be extinguished by conventional suppression agents, so you’ll need to figure out your own system."

This is the only thing that stood out to me in the article. Regardless of your opinion, this needs to be addressed. I know a ton of people that have installed the drop in lithium batteries. Does anyone know how valid this is? If this is true, does anyone have a practical solution? i.e. specific fire extinguisher chemical.

 

[rslifkin]

"The fire from lithium batteries cannot be extinguished by conventional suppression agents, so you’ll need to figure out your own system."

This is the only thing that stood out to me in the article. Regardless of your opinion, this needs to be addressed. I know a ton of people that have installed the drop in lithium batteries. Does anyone know how valid this is? If this is true, does anyone have a practical solution? i.e. specific fire extinguisher chemical.

It's far less of a concern with LiFePO4, but in general, with lithium batteries, the best way to stop a runaway is to cool the thing down to the point where the runaway stops. For a small battery, you can just submerge it in water to accomplish this.

 

[CarlF]

As already said - this article is simply WRONG for LFP batteries on cruising boats. To take his list:

1 - They need a BMS - another computer. So what? Does he want to get rid of chartplotters, radar, VHF, outboards, chargers and inverters that all have computers?

2. Must be well ventilated - NO - lithium batteries run cooler than LA. Most brands with the BMS inside the case don’t even have any vents in the case.

3- Can’t get too hot or cold. NO Fine up to about 120f. A temperature where LA batteries have shortened lives. And down to freezing. Many brands now have tiny internal heaters. But honestly, how often are you boating with the cabin over 110 or below freezing?

4 - Don’t like shock or vibration - NO - not a problem at cruising boat speeds. Maybe a jet fighter.

5 - Secret flammable electrolyte needs metal case - NO. Nothing secret about the electrolyte. Most LFP batteries have a plastic case. While LFP batteries can burn they don’t spontaneously catch fire like Lithium cobalt batteries used in cars. They are less flammable than your fiberglass boat or your cell phone.

The risk with LFP batteries is that a bad installation can wreck the battery or blow the diodes in the alternator. But it’s not hard to protect against this. And you need proper size cables and fuses. Just like with any large battery bank.

 

[Tiffany]

The essential point of the article - once one gets beyond the slightly histrionic tone - is simple: Lithium Ion batteries present safety concerns and system loading requirements that are different and largely don't exist for old style lead-acid batteries. It's worth being aware of those potential problems.

 

[ProMaritime]

I can replace all five of my LA Costco batteries every three to four years at a fraction of the cost of just one Lithium battery of any type or version.

In the last fifty years I have flown some of the world's most advanced commercial airplanes ever build but I draw the line at "Technology for Technology's sake. Think the Boeing 737 Max 8, designed by a bunch of young whiz-kids engineers under orders to keep pilot training costs down for this rehash of a near sixty-year-old design.

 

[Main Attraction]

A very enjoyable read, Loose Canon and Nigel Calder’s response.

 

[twistedtree]

The essential point of the article - once one gets beyond the slightly histrionic tone - is simple: Lithium Ion batteries present safety concerns and system loading requirements that are different and largely don't exist for old style lead-acid batteries. It's worth being aware of those potential problems.

And if the author had said that, and offered some guidance, it might have been a good article rather than tabloid vomit. To
me at least, the guy lost all professional credibility with that article

 

[CarlF]

The whole problem goes away if the LFP batteries are professionally installed. Your average boat owner shouldn’t install his own engines, air conditioner, bow thrusters, fuel tanks or radar. Add lithium batteries to that list.

When LFP’s were first put in boats the technology was very new. There were lots of mistakes. But it’s pretty routine now and there are lots of techs that can install a reliable and safe LFP house bank.

I have a 1500AH (12v) LFP bank. It has had ZERO problems since install. The BMS has NEVER disconnected. Nothing has gotten warm. After 40 years nursing every LA chemistry including Flooded, Gel, AGM, and CarbonFoam - it’s a joy to have a house bank that needs no attention. I check the charge percentage once a day. If it’s below 30%, I charge it to somewhere over 50%. With the solar that sometimes is only once a week at anchor.

 

[Phyrcooler]

Y'alls reading comprehension is questionable.

Peter Swanson did not write the article. His website merely hosted it.

Does no one read and investigate the by-line?

"By Jonathan Klopman"

https://www.jklopman.com/

The guy does forensic investigations in the marine industry. I think he may illogically base his opinion on his own anecdotal data and may be guilty of selection bias.

i.e. If you investigate a buttload of lithium battery fires, you may come up with the opinion that lithium batteries are bad. Of course, he doesn't investigate all the lithium batteries that work just fine.

I, like many, rolled my eyes when I read this article a week or so ago. I thought it was not well written and lacking depth in the samples and “investigative inputs”. I do not know the author, nor can I vouch for, or disparage his credentials. I am however, in a strong position by experience to be very dubious of PI’s - especially fire investigators. Additionally, while I do not hold myself up as an expert in most things (I much prefer to use the term experienced ), I have come across enough marine surveyor quacks to be strongly biased against most of them holding themselves up as “experts”. This has undoubtedly left me biased and causes me to look at articles such as this with a jaundiced eye.

I know that there have been and remain some issues with “Lithium” batteries. But without narrowing down the actual chemistry, it is a meaningless discussion and unfairly taints the quality systems out there. I am also irritated at this article for the damage it can do if the insurance industry jumps on his bandwagon and starts declining coverage solely due to the existence of undefined “lithium” batteries. This was shortsighted chest thumping at best.

 

[Delfin]

The essential point of the article - once one gets beyond the slightly histrionic tone - is simple: Lithium Ion batteries present safety concerns and system loading requirements that are different and largely don't exist for old style lead-acid batteries. It's worth being aware of those potential problems.

Sorry, since the type of Lithium chemistry (LiCoC2, LiMnPO4) that is a fire hazard isn't used on boats, the article has no essential point to make. Might as well be about the dangers of navigation of dude boats around Saturn.

 

[Delfin]

It was a mobile phone battery or some other device if memory serves me correctly.
Certainly not lifepo4 house bank.

That fire was caused by numerous camera and phone batteries being charged. One of them melted down, and started a fire that killed 34 people. When people start using their phones as their house bank, the article will have some bearing on reality. Until then, not so much.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/20/politics/conception-dive-boat-disaster-causes-ntsb/index.html

 

[diver dave]

Which raised a pertinent point for us still: How many of use charge Li ion devices overnite on our boats without a nite-watchman? I suspect a very high number.
Recently, I had a Netgear cell to wifi device expand its Battery, probably during one of its daily charge cycles aboard.
Got a new battery for it, but now its on my watch list; meaning i charge it on a steel broiler pan. For kicks, I stabbed the still working, but ballooned cell with a claw hammer. Yes, it got very hot.
I guess that means TNT is more stable…

 

[psneeld]

Which raised a pertinent point for us still: How many of use charge Li ion devices overnite on our boats without a nite-watchman? I suspect a very high number.
Recently, I had a Netgear cell to wifi device expand its Battery, probably during one of its daily charge cycles aboard.
Got a new battery for it, but now its on my watch list; meaning i charge it on a steel broiler pan. For kicks, I stabbed the still working, but ballooned cell with a claw hammer. Yes, it got very hot.

A few years back, I had a tablet melt the charging port, parts surrounding the battery and char the leather cover.

The boat was unattended at anchor for 4-5 hours while ashore. Funny how the only device that has done this to me was on a boat....of course as a liveaboard, that statistic need as much scrutiny as any stat.

Since then, most devices left charging are on surfaces resistant to heat if not around.

 

[rslifkin]

Which raised a pertinent point for us still: How many of use charge Li ion devices overnite on our boats without a nite-watchman? I suspect a very high number.
Recently, I had a Netgear cell to wifi device expand its Battery, probably during one of its daily charge cycles aboard.
Got a new battery for it, but now its on my watch list; meaning i charge it on a steel broiler pan. For kicks, I stabbed the still working, but ballooned cell with a claw hammer. Yes, it got very hot.
I guess that means TNT is more stable…

About the only things that get charged overnight on the boat for us are cell phones (and they're typically close by). If I'm working from the boat I'd have a laptop plugged in during the day, but unlike at home, there's no permanent "office" space, so when I'm done with it the thing gets unplugged and stowed.

In general, I'd say failure of a Li-ion battery without some prior warning (like bulging) is rare, but it does occasionally happen. There was a bad run of laptop batteries for several companies out of one manufacturer in the 2000s that brought the issue to light, as they had a defect that made them unusually prone to an internal short without showing external damage (and then they'd go into a thermal runaway). I've seen a few Li-ion batteries bulge in laptops and such. Usually they happen gradually until one day you notice and go "oh crap, that's not right!"

It's much more likely to happen due to physical damage to the battery, however. Most of the incidents on airplanes start off as something like "person drops cell phone, un-reclines seat to get up to look for it, phone had fallen into seat, gets crushed, battery gets punctured, phone starts smoking."

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Great discussion. However.....

How long was the "anchor" thread? Can this one beat it?

Just smiling. Lots of good information.

For me I can't afford to convert over to lithium batteries. I have LF batteries that are 6 years old and still working great. But with that said it will be time to change the house batteries out this summer.

Keep the discussion going!

 

[cat38skip]

Wasn't the dive boat in California blamed on LI battery charging? Wouldn't surprise me if there are more similar examples.

Granted it was not a house bank reason, but a boat fire just the same.

That was partially my comments about not defining the types of Lithium chemistry.... that he may have had a point but it got lost in the rest of the article.

Making a comparison of The different technologies: Li ion and LiFePO4 or implying that they are equally dangerous just because Li occurs in both names is wrong. They are very different technologies.


We lost a family member in the Catalina dive boat fire. The cause was attributed to charging many Lithium ion batteries for phones, cameras and lights. Deaths might have been prevented by better watch-keeping.




Given that experience, I still support LiFePO4 technology. It is not explosively flammable and if installed correctly is quite safe. I am currently installing an additional solar/LiFePO4 bank on my Motor Yacht. But I will never leave a Li ion battery on charge unattended.

 

[OldDan1943]

I am sorry for your loss.
I agree, they needed a better watch standing system both day and night.
At night, at least one roving watch.

 

[Comodave]

I am sorry for your loss.
I agree, they needed a better watch standing system both day and night.
At night, at least one roving watch.

Well they actually needed to maintain the required watch.

 

[Simi 60]

The whole problem goes away if the LFP batteries are professionally installed. Your average boat owner shouldn’t install his own engines, air conditioner, bow thrusters, fuel tanks or radar. Add lithium batteries to that list.

]

Yeah, nah, maybe

So many so called "professionals" out there wouldn't make an old skool tradies ahole as far as I am concerned.

And the other side of the coin is I gave seen "amatuer" work that has far outshone the so called professionals.

 

[psneeld]

Making a comparison of The different technologies: Li ion and LiFePO4 or implying that they are equally dangerous just because Li occurs in both names is wrong. They are very different technologies.


We lost a family member in the Catalina dive boat fire. The cause was attributed to charging many Lithium ion batteries for phones, cameras and lights. Deaths might have been prevented by better watch-keeping.




Given that experience, I still support LiFePO4 technology. It is not explosively flammable and if installed correctly is quite safe. I am currently installing an additional solar/LiFePO4 bank on my Motor Yacht. But I will never leave a Li ion battery on charge unattended.

If I was unclear then let me restate.

I did state that lithium ion batteries aren't often "house batteries."

Boaters often have both chemistries onboard.

Many boaters are more dangerous as captains /crew than any chance of a battery starting a fire. But people don't get my advice on that matter too much either.

 

[rslifkin]

]

Yeah, nah, maybe

So many so called "professionals" out there wouldn't make an old skool tradies ahole as far as I am concerned.

And the other side of the coin is I gave seen "amatuer" work that has far outshone the so called professionals.

He did say "average" boat owner. Those guys are pretty scary to encounter. I'd say the significant number of people on here that can do a good installation of many boat systems don't really count as "average" in the boating population.

 

[Hippocampus]

In medicine they say you know something if you:
See one
Do one
Teach one.

Think boat skills are the same. Historically make sure I can watch whenever a tech comes aboard. Usually they don’t want you there because you slow them up. But if you’re respectful and serve as a gofer and second pair of hands they usually will walk you through what they’re doing and why. So you learn.
If and when I put in LiFePO4 I’ll hire a boat electrician. There’s enough going on that a faulty installation is dangerous or at a minimum can ruin expensive equipment. Also I’m going to be responsible for analyzing any difficulties once out cruising. Seeing the thing installed by a professional would give me a leg up on understanding it and the devil is in the details.
Would say the same about any energy system. But with Pb or Cfoam I have the basic knowledge.
I read manuals but am also a visual/tactile learner. Historically my main trouble has been in learning how to apply the jargon to the reality. Here also watching and helping with a professional installation would seem worthwhile.

 

[sunchaser]

If and when I put in LiFePO4 I’ll hire a boat electrician. There’s enough going on that a faulty installation is dangerous or at a minimum can ruin expensive equipment. .

You've touched on one of the conundrums, ie the capability of marine electricians to be well versed and experienced on Li batteries and install do's and don'ts.

I know two who've proven great at most marine things, but freely admit they've not done a beginning to end new Li battery install. My questions to these guys would be quite simple, "have you read Calder and Collins on this subject?"

Even on new builds the question as to source of knowledge applies IMHO when it comes to current new technology. A few years ago a friend got so frustrated with a large vessels high end ill conceived instrument set up that he had a great tech throw it all out, re-design and start over. Point being, not all marine electricians are created equal.

 

[Hippocampus]

I’ve read Calder but still feel insecure. Always think it’s wise to vet anyone who comes on your boat. Think is true for techs and crew equally.
Never had a SeaKeeper before. Their manual shows annual maintenance to be quite simple. Change hydraulic fluid and a zinc. Still I wanted a SeaKeeper certified tech to go over it with me as the service records I have on it are not detailed. So instead of doing this chore in Virginia I’ll do it with a certified tech in R.I. I’m talking with him at 2pm today in preparation.
Same with Li. This is proven tech at this point. Enough people have made the conversion or it’s in enough new builds you’re not a early adapter. I’ll vett available techs at that time and get a knowledgeable and experienced one.

 

[psneeld]

It's nice to have qualified techs....

Try to find them in a hurry during rush season or in remote areas.

Includes all the marine trades. Heck many times you can't find a marine air conditioning tech at all in high boating areas...unless they are attached to the biggest repair place around and can slip you in...still no guarantee on ability.

 

[Hippocampus]

Our HVAC failed while in Bequia. Had techs look at it in St.Vincent and then St.Lucia with no joy. But watched them and chatted them up. Then I called manufacturer and chatted them up. After those conversations decided it was either the cable from the AC unit to control panel, the control panel or the motherboard in the AC unit. We were in St.Anne’s by then. Inport was problematic. But had spent enough money at island water world in St.Lucia that that store was willing to order that stuff and include it in their bimonthly order. So got all three. Installed them myself. Good to go.
The freezer was running more than it should and needed to be defrosted more frequently than I thought it should. Local tech in BVI wanted to replace refrigerant. Studied on it and he was going to use the wrong refrigerant. Went to HVAC supply (land not marine) found they had correct refrigerant. From studying it also wanted to put dehumidifier/filter in line. Hired guy out of supply house to do the work on the side and paid cash.
In both cases even not being a HVAC guy I understood the basics. From issues through the years in my houses even knew some of the details. With that and some reading and telephone/internet support was able to get stuff fixed.
Look at electrical/batteries the same way. I know what I don’t know. I know I would need outside help and training. Just like docs, plumbers, lawyers or anything there’s good ones and not so much. As Nancy told Ronnie to say “trust but verify”.
If voyaging then for key systems you better either have redundancy or have enough spares, tools and knowledge as to be able DIY fix it. Last boat had good enough ventilation that loss of HVAC wasn’t key even in the tropics. It also had two totally independent refrig/freezer units so doing without one for a couple of weeks wasn’t more than an annoyance.
We looked at a lot of power coastal cruisers before buying this one. Was struck by how many had interior spaces that were HVAC dependent. How many had little or no redundancy. Current boat is single screw. I’ll watch it and steering like a hawk. I’m in process of learning much more about each.
We’re retired. No schedules. Moving is determined by the seasons. We’re going to be east coast and Bahamas. If the boat doesn’t move for a week or two it isn’t the end of the world. Totally different mindset than voyaging and doing passages. Feel bad for seasonal coastal boaters. Losing even part of a season is a big deal. Not being able to get home for work is a big deal. Knowing that would inform my decision on which boat to buy and which courses to take. Over the years have done multiple diesel and weather courses but no sailing courses except SAS. Have hired people to train my bride. Have learned crewing for others and from crew. Think all boaters need enough skills to able to vett work done on their boats and be able to do much of it themselves even if they can afford to be a credit card captain.
So agree with you PS. But to the extent possible try to make those troubles not be self inflicted.