What does radar do that my eyes can't?

[toocoys]

I'm going to preface this so that you all understand my circumstances. First, cruising offshore is basically never going to happen. Second, we have no lower helm, so I'm ALWAYS at the very top of the boat driving. Third, we have no auto pilot, so I'm ALWAYS at the wheel. Fourth, I cannot foresee any circumstances where I would need radar, because I've never needed it in the past. and thus never learned how to use it.

With that said, I have this antiquated radar on board. It works, but it just sits there. I don't even understand how to read it. I'm thinking about pulling it out and looking into installing a wired camera monitor for engine room monitoring.

I don't want to remove something though, that may be useful if we ever decide to take the ditch down to Corpus or something.

Thooughts?

 

[slowgoesit]

What does radar do that my eyes can't?

See through fog

No navigational equipment is of much use if you haven't spent the time to figure out how to use it.

The time to figure out how to use it is NOT when you most need it.

If you never go out in hours of darkness, times of limited visibility, fog, rain, etc, or times when the above conditions MAY suddenly crop up, you may never see (no pun intended) the advantages of having a radar.

Regarding your comment: "Fourth, I cannot foresee any circumstances where I would need radar, because I've never needed it in the past. and thus never learned how to use it."

I never needed the engine fire suppression systems on an aircraft either . . . . until I DID! Then I was really glad that it was there, that I knew how to use it, and that it worked properly. Nothing like being 80 miles from land in a twin engine aircraft, with one of the engines on fire . . . .

Anyway, back to your issue. If you never plan on using it, and it is older, and doesn't add significant value to the boat, and you need the space that it occupies, than remove it! Best of luck in whatever you decide!

 

[toocoys]

See through fog

Barge traffic + Fog + ICW = bad outcome.

Well that settles that.... I'll keep it until I can afford to replace it with a modern unit.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

“See”in the dark.

Having one without knowing how to use it is perhaps worse than not having one at all, except that other captains might use it.

 

[psneeld]

I have always heard and said....you never need RADAR till the first time you re really scared in fog and you are then the first person in line the next day to buy a RADAR.


I have never met a cruiser who said they were sorry to have bought a RADAR. They may not use it often...but that's also a factor of where, when and how often they cruise.

 

[Gdavid]

The performance of the new broadband units versus the old stuff is night and day. There is an art to setting up the analog units and unless you practice, they are really limited in practicality. I would not remove one in place but practice using and tweaking it in daylight so you can interpret what you are seeing and able to understand what you see at night if you ever need it, it will look different in fog so that is harder to learn.

I wouldn't remove one but if I didn't have radar, I would prioritize installing AIS as a tool to avoid collisions (primarily for commercial traffic) first and then look into a new fangled broadband radar and the next step in instrumentation.

 

[ranger58sb]

Everything mentioned -- fog, night, rain, choppy sea states, etc. -- plus you can also learn to see serious weather approaching, it makes a sort-of-OK rear view mirror (so you maybe don't have to turn around to look quite as often), you can find fish by finding birds, and it can also be used for rough navigation (matching shorelines and features like bridges and so forth to charts, etc.). Especially useful when you didn't actually PLAN to be out in those conditions, but inadvertently find yourself in deep kimchi anyway.

Learn to start using it while you can see -- to correlate what you see on the display to what you see with your eyes. And of course it usually helps to read and understand the manual. (Furuno's website has -- had? -- a reasonably good tutorial manual that would 95% apply to any brand of radar.)

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

AIS is nice, but collision avoidance for a small boat out of major shipping areas or main channels is not going to show you the real dangers....the people, things that don't need to have AIS and those that don't care.


Not saying it isnt a valuable tool, but for strict collision avoaidance...it can't see things that aren't transmitting....like ME and millions of others. I will show up on RADAR though.


I would really debate what to purchase first...a RADAR I trust and is helpful, or AIS. I did however ensure my new radio was AIS receive...at least I know where the people with full AIS are.

 

[Fish53]

Radar shows the exact range and bearing to prominent features such as buoys, rocks, buildings and such as well as other vessels. GPS is great but not as precise, having run boats with multiple radar and AIS overlay on plotters it's interesting to see just how far off they are from each other, with radar always being right. You would be missing a lot of the value of radar if you only think of it as a collision avoidance device.

 

[Gdavid]

AIS is nice, but collision avoidance for a small boat out of major shipping areas or main channels is not going to show you the real dangers....the people, things that don't need to have AIS and those that don't care.


Not saying it isnt a valuable tool, but for strict collision avoaidance...it can't see things that aren't transmitting....like ME and millions of others. I will show up on RADAR though.


I would really debate what to purchase first...a RADAR I trust and is helpful, or AIS. I did however ensure my new radio was AIS receive...at least I know where the people with full AIS are.

I can certainly see an argument either way, my rational in favor of AIS is largely related to my proximity to major shipping and I believe the OP is an inland boater (so this really negates my advice). My thought process in favor of AIS is that it will clearly identify the traffic that is the greatest threat of sinking you. There is a much smaller learner curve to AIS, you aren't going to misinterpret a freighter for a sea buoy or miss something completely because your setting were wrong.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Great input here.

It takes experience to learn to interpret what you see. So as others have said use it on clear days to get used to it.

I'll add that as you practice with your older analog set learn how to tune it. On a set like yours the controls are probably just gain, tune, rain clutter and sea clutter. A common error newbies to analog radar make is to try to tune it so that all of the clutter and noise is gone. When it's tuned correctly you'll still have some noise and clutter. I can't give you any direct guidance, you'll need to learn your radar. Settings will vary with atmospheric conditions and to some extent with range selected.

Learn it. It's a powerful tool.

 

[psneeld]

I can certainly see an argument either way, my rational in favor of AIS is largely related to my proximity to major shipping and I believe the OP is an inland boater. My thought process in favor of AIS is that it will clearly identify the traffic that is the greatest threat of sinking you. There is a much smaller learner curve to AIS, you aren't going to misinterpret a freighter for a sea buoy or miss something completely because your setting were wrong.

Have to disagree with your basic premise as the majority of boating vessels does not have AIS, they are small, fast and good chance neither have lights on or sounding low vis sound signals. They can dart out anyplace, anytime cutting across normal shipping paths and to me are just as big a threat to causing major damage or injury.



I believe this boater boats in or near coastal Texas, a playground for those described above when avoiding shipping


And true, RADAR can be a valuable navigation tool, AIS only helps with virtual navaids.

 

[toocoys]

I can't give you any direct guidance, you'll need to learn your radar. Settings will vary with atmospheric conditions and to some extent with range selected.

Learn it. It's a powerful tool.

I was able to find the old manual online just now. The operations section is over 40 pages, so I've got a lot of reading, and subsequent experimentation to do.

I just didn't know if it was still worth it to keep aboard. Knowing nothing about radar, much less analog radar, it just really looks value-less to me. But if it does everything y'all have said it can do, then I'll get to reading.

 

[psneeld]

I was able to find the old manual online just now. The operations section is over 40 pages, so I've got a lot of reading, and subsequent experimentation to do.

I just didn't know if it was still worth it to keep aboard. Knowing nothing about radar, much less analog radar, it just really looks value-less to me. But if it does everything y'all have said it can do, then I'll get to reading.

If still working properly, and reasonably tuned correctly...with basic interpretation it will help you from running into things and show shorelines well enough to help keep you oriented.


Sure a new one would help a lot more...but until you start understanding the basics...newer may only help a little.

 

[CaptainSEA]

I'm going to preface this so that you all understand my circumstances. First, cruising offshore is basically never going to happen. Second, we have no lower helm, so I'm ALWAYS at the very top of the boat driving. Third, we have no auto pilot, so I'm ALWAYS at the wheel. Fourth, I cannot foresee any circumstances where I would need radar, because I've never needed it in the past. and thus never learned how to use it.

With that said, I have this antiquated radar on board. It works, but it just sits there. I don't even understand how to read it. I'm thinking about pulling it out and looking into installing a wired camera monitor for engine room monitoring.

I don't want to remove something though, that may be useful if we ever decide to take the ditch down to Corpus or something.

Thooughts?

The Radar is the most important navigation equipment, it tells the truth of what’s around your boat. AIS is a great tool but as mentioned depending where you are cruising, not all boats are equipped, GPS/ Chart plotter is again a good help but I do not count the times my boat was cruising ‘on land’ according to the chart but to a very safe distance as per visual and the radar....

 

[Fletcher500]

The reality is, it takes a lot of time on the water using the radar, reading the manual, and then more water time, reading the manual....repeat: to learn how to use radar properly and especially for the older systems like you have. As mentioned, the newer gen systems are much easier to learn and to interpret data. People need to be honest with themselves as to how much they will invest in the process to become proficient.

 

[toocoys]

People need to be honest with themselves as to how much they will invest in the process to become proficient.

I'm willing to invest the time, I've always wanted to, but what I DONT want to do is invest months of personal teaching with antiquated equipment, just to have to re-learn everything again once I buy new equipment.

Is learning radar kind of like knowing how to type. Once you know how you can type on anything from a typewriter to a laptop?

 

[Fish53]

If you're going to invest in a radar it may be of some utility to take a radar course. I have an unlimited radar observers license obtained years ago at Maine Maritime Academy that is renewed ever five years. For a few hundred dollars and a weeks time you can learn a lot, there's no substitute for experience but a week of classroom and radar simulator time can give you a more structured understanding when you actually are on the water using radar. As said it's also a good idea to have radar on even in good visibility so you can have a better idea of it's capabilities.

 

[rgano]

My thought, like others here is play with the radar to understand the basic controls. The go out in daylight beyond your marina and pretend you are in darkness or fog with another person as safety lookout while you slowly approach your marina.

Then make your own informed decision about the utility of the radar you have.

Many of us here grew up with radar and would not own a boat without it, but you and many others successfully boat without it. At least with the minimal effort above, you will know what the pros and cons for YOU are.

 

[ranger58sb]

I'm willing to invest the time, I've always wanted to, but what I DONT want to do is invest months of personal teaching with antiquated equipment, just to have to re-learn everything again once I buy new equipment.

Is learning radar kind of like knowing how to type. Once you know how you can type on anything from a typewriter to a laptop?

Not a bad analogy.

Newer systems may do more "stuff" for you, but it's the same "stuff" you can tune manually... and assuming your unit is in good working shape, it'll be no less accurate (for your purposes) than the latest and greatest whiz-bang wondertoy.

IOW, no huge need to buy new unless you eventually want to, perhaps to integrate with charts on a plotter, perhaps to add color, etc. Nice-to-haves, not critical.

FWIW, I've always preferred to display radar on it's own dedicated display; I just find it easier to interpret, that way. Wouldn't turn down chart overlays TOO -- i.e., on a separate display -- but I'd still prefer to dedicate a unit to radar for our purposes.

-Chris

 

[Portage_Bay]

.... GPS/ Chart plotter is again a good help but I do not count the times my boat was cruising ‘on land’ according to the chart but to a very safe distance as per visual and the radar....

At the risk of derailing the thread do you still see many instances of horizontal displacement? It used to be a frequent problem especially in remote lightly traveled areas. I think the GPS was accurate but the charts based on very old surveys were 'displaced' on the surface of the earth. The charts themselves were accurate with respect to bearings, ranges and depths of charted objects in relationship to each other. I haven't seen many of those errors in quite some time. That said I still ground truth the plotter with the radar especially when in unfamiliarand remote areas. There are still some surprises. Not too many years ago I found a significant error and used it as a teaching moment for the younger crew members who grew up with GPS as their 'only' navigation tool. I reminded them to LOTFW (Look Out The eFfing Windows).

 

[psneeld]

In 8 years of snowbirding between New Jersey and the Keys, not once did my PC based OpenCPN with raster charts show me anywhere but where I could confirm visually.

10 to 20 years ago, I ran many different boats and often had chartplotters of all brands with vector charts occasionally show me on land.

Even so, when navigating on instruments, it is always wise to have 2 to cross reference.

 

[Fish53]

I'm willing to invest the time, I've always wanted to, but what I DONT want to do is invest months of personal teaching with antiquated equipment, just to have to re-learn everything again once I buy new equipment.

Is learning radar kind of like knowing how to type. Once you know how you can type on anything from a typewriter to a laptop?

You're only talking about controls not interpreting the display. It doesn't matter whether you're using a fifty year old Sperry or a brand new model learning how to setup the display is important but knowing what you're seeing and using it is where the real results are found.

 

[Lepke]

Radar saves time in limited visibility. Even 30 year old radar can give a good picture of what's around you.

 

[Fish53]

CRT radar gives a very good picture, I don't believe you can even get a CRT radar anymore.

 

[guy with a boat]

Radar saves time in limited visibility. Even 30 year old radar can give a good picture of what's around you.

I agree and wouldn't be without it. If our boat is moving, our radar is on.



It shouldn't be hard to make sure some basic settings (gain, etc) are in the ballpark and find out if it functions. There can be lots of features on newer radar but I have had old, small screen monochrome units that were still very useful and valuable to have. At its most basic level, radar will show black blobs where there are solid objects. Avoid the blobs and you are way ahead in low visibility conditions.

 

[STB]

My take, for whatever it is worth, is that newer radars are 1,000 times easier to use, can see a little closer to one's own boat, and less if a health hazard in the unlikely case you find your head on plane with one while it is turned on...

..but older stand-alone monochrome CRT radars, if working, still provide most of the value for those who know how to use them.

I wouldn't trade my modern radar for one of them for any less than the cost of a new modern radar. But, if I had only one of those, I'd use it every trip until I had something better.

My suggestion would be to turn it on every trip, read through the book when you get a chance, and start playing with the knows. Eventually you'll learn to dial it in. Start with range and gain (and display brightness). Then play with sea clutter. Then go from there.

At first you'll likely recognize land, bridges, piers, and docks. Then powerful storms and large ships, then power boats, and sailboats and buoys with radar reflectors. Then, you'll surprise yourself and find an ordinary buoy, or on a calm glassy day, a bunch of birds.eventuakky you'll start counting range rings to compare with your plotter in estimating distance.

If you ever get a modern radar, you'll already be skilled and get to enjoy the usability and refinement of the modern system from Day One. And, even if you never do, you'll have learned a bunch and get to put another tool in the box in case you ever need it.

No need to make a bug investment. Just turn it on and play with the knows now and then.

Also, don't worry if it has a mess of a display at the marina. A high density of masts, etc, tend to make it a mess. One you get out of your slip, it often gets more sane fast.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[STB]

By the way, I just looked at that model. That is a very find radar, once very ubiquitous.

As to what it can see that you can't...

In the fog: Everything it can see

At night: Everything but lights, and when there are reflections or bright city lights outshines nav lights, well, boats, light houses, etc.

If your vision isn't super acute: Buoys with reflectors, before you can.

Behind you, when you are looking forward and at instruments

Distant mand: In daylight on hazy or smoke days.

 

[Circumnavigator]

One factor not mentioned above. COLREGS 7(b):"Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation
of detected objects."


"if...operational" means "if working", not "if turned on". If you have a working radar and don't use it, you are in violation of the COLREGS. As a practical matter that's not a problem unless something bad happens that using the radar might have avoided. If you are really never going to use it, it would be better to take it off the boat.


Jim

 

[toocoys]

Colregs... hahahah! I'm not the least bit concerned with those.