What does radar do that my eyes can't?

[Mark Myns]

Yes to Radar

When I first got my boat we took it up the Detroit River and ran into a major fog bank leading to zero visibility. The boat had radar but none of the three of us had every used radar even though we each had 20 plus years sailing. We got lucky using the GPS. Along the way we were surprised by how close we came to a water pumping station and several freighters.
After this experience I always have the radar on and have learned how to use it because we like to travel at night when it is calmer. I will always make radar a priority even over GPS since I like to practice with my paper charts on a regular basis.

 

[SteveK]

Over the years I have had 3 boats with radar, but I have never bought a radar. The first one had the cone where you plant your face into it to see detail on the screen. I learned to use all three.
When this thread started I thought it was tongue in cheek type of question and stayed out of it and it evolved the way I expected. I recognize a few posters who probably for sure know and have used radar, but I doubt many that spoke about it have had more than the unit turned on, untuned and speak with authority as if they use it daily for navigation.
During SAR days we rescued many small craft without a radar signature, no reflector and too low profile to be a target. WE found them in the dark with our eyes and with whatever info they were able to share over vhf.
I am fortunate to have night vision. Really do not know why, or how it works that I can see what others cannot at night (during sar).
One example of radar navigation back to dock I asked the skipper what his intentions were with the approaching target visible on radar as an extension of the BC Ferry terminal. One of the boats was leaving dock. The helm and navigator were planning on passing offshore but did not realize the slowing changing course as they headed for the bow of the ferry.
But my eyes could discern the movement of the ship.
Radar has its use, if you have one learn to use it, if you get one learn to use it.

 

[Mr. Ed]

Kevin Monahan"s "The Radar Book" is a decent resource. At least for the fundamentals.

The Radar Book

https://www.amazon.com/Radar-Book-Effective-Navigation-Collision/dp/1932310363

He has the experience and credentials to back up his writing. Used by the power squadrons in the US and Canada.

I have a first edition. If I ever update to a modern radar, I'll buy the second edition. I keep it on the boat and reference it on longer autopilot passages when I am still learning and relearning my radar skills.

Public thanks! I followed your link, ordered it and it arrived today. It looks like it's going to be very helpful. I especially want to thank you for posting the link! Many folks will just list a topic or item, and not bother to insert a link. But you took the time to make it easy for folks like me to follow through. Well done!

 

[captmikem]

well, I used to say if I only had one piece of electronic navigation it would be Radar. Then GPS came out. Radar is so handy but you have to know how to use it.

It is like you saying "I have eyes and two hands, what do I need an autopilot for?"

But honestly, I think you should just stick to your GPS and AIS. Just do us a favor and stay well clear of commercial traffic.

M

 

[BDofMSP]

Today I cruised 87 miles in clear and sunny conditions. Three distinct times I spotted fishing net buoys on my radar that I wouldn't have seen. Admittedly they were each off to one side or another so they wouldn't have been a problem but next time might be different. I won't run without it. around here.
BD

 

[TrondS]

Is learning radar kind of like knowing how to type. Once you know how you can type on anything from a typewriter to a laptop?

Yes, mostly true.
If you understand your old unit, learning the new ones will be very easy.

Practice your current radar as much as you can in good visibility. Compare what you see on the screen with what your eyes see and compare to the chart. Practice tuning the radar for different sea and weather conditions.
The new generation radars can do this automatically (with more or less acceptable results), but if you learn it the old way, you are miles ahead of the average radar user.

Some mentioned AIS. Remember that AIS can be up to 30 seconds delayed, so the position of other vessels you see, can be way off if it is a fast boat. Most recreational vessels and some commercial ones don't transmit (or have) AIS, so you won't see them anyway.
Radar is a very good navigation tool. AIS is not!

 

[gilbertpark]

I boat in the Med where there is a lot of sunshine and fishermen in small rubber dinghies usually grey in colour. When the sun causes glare off the sea you can't see the dinghies, but the new broadband radars can. They will give you early warning that somethings there making avoiding them less last minute, especially if you are travelling at speed. Turn on the guard zone and you'll get an audible alarm. You can also see fishing pot pick up buoys most days. I use mine almost all the time. Also means when the vis is down I am familiar with it.

 

[IntoTheBlue]

There's been plenty of posts noting the reasons to have and use radar. I also noticed that you will try and learn how to use your current system. (I do agree that there is no reason to upgrade if your current system works properly). So just a thought...

If I had to choose about just having an onboard radar system or GPS, either or, it would be a hard decision. But I would probably take the radar. As long as I had a compass and charts. If inland waterways all the time, as you said, then a cell phone or iPad can be used as your chart plotter.

Just a thought.

 

[Simi 60]

We did a 34nm instrument only run a couple of months ago through the sandy straights for sh1ts and giggles
Narrow channels, shallow water and us with 7.5ft draught.
Was hard pressed seeing the bow of the boat but we needed to be at the mid point at high to get through or wait a week for suitable tides later in the day when fog burnt off, which we could have done, no time constraints but thought we'd do the run as a test of skill.

Apart from one instance where my perception was totally thrown out ( boat anchored mid channel but when on it we barely had speed to pass - not anchored, travelling at 6 knots) all was good - extra level of attention had us through without a depth alarm going off

 

[Hippocampus]

In response to post #145.

Everyone has depth. Common technique is to follow a depth contour line and use the radar to determine where you are on that line. If necessary and towers or other land marks are available you can use them as lines of reference on the radar. You can even triangulate off those targets.
GPS is a wonder but in many places charts don’t match reality. That’s why some vendors use crowd sourcing and they all are constantly updating. If you travel off the beaten path or in areas where the coastline is in constant flux running with total dependence on chart information can get you in the soup. The skills you learned when doing DR can be applied to modern technology. Sure, you have two charts up from different sources but local sources (depth, log, radar, eyes, compass bearings etc.) are more reliable.

Prior posters suggestions to use radar during the day so you learn how correlate to yours eyes and a chart is spot on. Great way to learn so you have a picture in your minds eye when visibility is gone.

 

[Steile Bank]

I use my radar always, day or night, fog or not. It is one of best things to make boating safier, at least in my opinion

 

[Fish53]

I have to disagree with the comment that radar is always right. In low lying areas (beaches etc) like in Florida and the Bahamas it can often be very difficult to determine where the shore actually lies. One advantage of AIS is you get the commercial vessels name, without which, they often will not respond to your VHF call.
Cheers Steve Dublin

With AIS or any other means to establish another vessels position you can call them by their position. Just say "calling the vessel at, and give their lat lon" commercial vessels always respond to such a call. It's also possible to use VTS when operating within their area where you'll be notified of all commercial traffic, it's not mandatory for pleasure boats under about 100 ft. but most systems will let you use the service.
True radar can miss low lying structures such as gently slopping beach or almost submerged objects, nothings perfect. That's why safe navigation involves utilizing all the information you have access to.

 

[Landfall]

One other thing radar will do is allow you to change course and/or speed to avoid thunderstorms or heavy rain.

 

[LiquidTherapy]

As a former navy radar man I removed the working old radar when I bought my 1979 album. Rules of the road can be used against you in a collision if you have radar, as not maintaining a lookout by all means including radar. That being said internet live weather radar on you phone can help with sudden storms. Radar is very difficult to use to locate markers and other boats can be different to detect with casual glances. Radar requires full time attention in bad conditions and can become spotty information. AIS is much better than Rader and can see around turns in the icw for commercial traffic and many pleasure craft.

 

[Simi 60]

.
GPS is a wonder but in many places charts don’t match reality. That’s why some vendors use crowd sourcing and they all are constantly updating. If you travel off the beaten path or in areas where the coastline is in constant flux running with total dependence on chart information can get you in the soup. .

We often travel on land according to the charts
Would never trust radar to do it , eyes needed and sun overhead to see shallow vs deep colour changes in water.

Radar is zero help for us in that example.

 

[armando]

I'm going to preface this so that you all understand my circumstances. First, cruising offshore is basically never going to happen. Second, we have no lower helm, so I'm ALWAYS at the very top of the boat driving. Third, we have no auto pilot, so I'm ALWAYS at the wheel. Fourth, I cannot foresee any circumstances where I would need radar, because I've never needed it in the past. and thus never learned how to use it.

With that said, I have this antiquated radar on board. It works, but it just sits there. I don't even understand how to read it. I'm thinking about pulling it out and looking into installing a wired camera monitor for engine room monitoring.

I don't want to remove something though, that may be useful if we ever decide to take the ditch down to Corpus or something.

Thooughts?

30 years ago, with a very old radar, we could arrive in the port despite a suddenly and very dense fog. We saw nothing at, may be, 15 meters. This during more then 7 miles. Thanks to the radar and my wife on the helm I could tell her 10 degrees port then 90 degrees starboard etc etc and finally dock in.
One other year we were able to avoid a storm because we saw the rain on the radar screen 10 miles away.
We use it each year when we go from Masnou (Barcelona) to Minorca Island.
Yes, it is very useful

 

[psneeld]

As a former navy radar man I removed the working old radar when I bought my 1979 album. Rules of the road can be used against you in a collision if you have radar, as not maintaining a lookout by all means including radar. That being said internet live weather radar on you phone can help with sudden storms. Radar is very difficult to use to locate markers and other boats can be different to detect with casual glances. Radar requires full time attention in bad conditions and can become spotty information. AIS is much better than Rader and can see around turns in the icw for commercial traffic and many pleasure craft.

Have to disagree.

The COLREGS and USCG discuss using all available means in PREVAILING conditions and that it is up to the master to decide about radar use and posting lookouts beyond normal. But sure, it will be a big stink if you do have a collision, but at that point...not using the radar in clear, broad daylight conditions will be but a small part of a small, recreational boat skipper's problem.

True internet and phone based radar can help, but only in places reception is available.

Modern radar doesn't require full time attention as auto modes make life much easier and provide valuable situational awareness if used correctly.

The vast majority and some commercial traffic does NOT have AIS, though zi would consider it a high priority on river systems with a lot of large barge traffic.

 

[Hippocampus]

Agree Simi “if it’s blue pass on through…..”

 

[mvweebles]

I continue to be stunned that there are so many who state that AIS and GPS/chartplotter are proxies for radar. There is some overlap that diminishes the need for radar, but hardly makes radar obsolete.

There are now many sailors cruising great distances with iPhone based nav apps. GPS and chart plotter have become optional. When I was delivering along the West Coast, I required a working autopilot and radar. Everything else I could bring with me (PC based nav software and USB GPS puck).

If you're boating regularly includes conditions where visibility is compromised and you're relatively intelligent and not on any psychotropic drugs, you need radar or a set of brass balls. If your boating is like 99% of people's where they can pick and chose their conditions and rarely venture any distance at night, then radar is optional. Sounds harsh but I'll say it anyway: to say radar is optional because of AiS or GPS is downright ignorant.

Radar is the only instrument that is designed to see what is actually out there - not just vessels broadcasting am AIS signature, but everything. It's not perfect and sometimes requires interpretation, but there is no substitute for it.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Amen

 

[markpierce]

Small and large blobs. Good for looking in their directions with binoculars.

 

[Seevee]

I have to disagree with the comment that radar is always right. In low lying areas (beaches etc) like in Florida and the Bahamas it can often be very difficult to determine where the shore actually lies. One advantage of AIS is you get the commercial vessels name, without which, they often will not respond to your VHF call.
Cheers Steve Dublin

Respectifully disagree. Radar IS right, it's the interpretation that could be wrong. Radar reflects whats there.... and its instant, no delay like iPhone radar or AIS. So that has some value.


And there's an argument to overlay the plotter map with radar, it will verify the mapping.

 

[Gmarr]

I'm beginning to remember why I quit posting here.

You’ve actually grown since then however- you aren’t as rude and a bit more open than you were a year or so ago. Lol, you even snarked back at Peggie and we all held our breathe….

Chilax - you can do this and not be a loner

 

[ranger58sb]

As a former navy radar man I removed the working old radar when I bought my 1979 album. Rules of the road can be used against you in a collision if you have radar, as not maintaining a lookout by all means including radar. That being said internet live weather radar on you phone can help with sudden storms. Radar is very difficult to use to locate markers and other boats can be different to detect with casual glances. Radar requires full time attention in bad conditions and can become spotty information. AIS is much better than Rader and can see around turns in the icw for commercial traffic and many pleasure craft.

I'd rather have a radar, and use it to avoid collisions in the first place... than not have a radar because of a "maybe".

Where we've been, including the AICW, 90-95% of boats don't transmit AIS.

-Chris

 

[Fish53]

Respectifully disagree. Radar IS right, it's the interpretation that could be wrong. Radar reflects whats there.... and its instant, no delay like iPhone radar or AIS. So that has some value.


And there's an argument to overlay the plotter map with radar, it will verify the mapping.

Well not actually "IS right" all the time. To assume anything is 100% accurate 100% of the time is just as much a hazard as not using what you have. I agree about radar, plotter and AIS overlay where I would defer to the radar image under most circumstances. There's been a lot of talk on here with this subject but frankly the bottom line is the need to learn how to use what you have. Elsewhere I suggested taking a radar course at one of the maritime academies or at least somewhere that has a real radar lab with a serious simulator. No one on here has mentioned the ability to do manual radar plotting, a function now performed by ARPA on many radars. Most would happily let ARPA do it but knowing how to do radar plotting on a plotting sheet or like we did it in the old days directly on the radar screen gives one a much better ability to interpret targets even without plotting.

 

[localboy]

Our perspectives are determined by our experience which is determined by our usage. Respect those who feel it’s an unnecessary expense for them. Hope this thread increased awareness it’s very helpful to others.

Well said.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

everyone on here has a "radar story" ad nauseum... OP asked for an Opinion and didn't like the answers... So he said "I'm out" lol.. I like the part where he said he didn't care about Colregs...

 

[Fish53]

everyone on here has a "radar story" ad nauseum... OP asked for an Opinion and didn't like the answers... So he said "I'm out" lol.. I like the part where he said he didn't care about Colregs...

As a fellow professional mariner I'm sure you've had your share of encounters with less than safe operation of recreational craft, I know I have. It would seem to me that anyone going out on the water would see the responsibility to themselves, their passengers and other vessels operating in the same area, such does not appear to always be the case.

 

[rslifkin]

As a fellow professional mariner I'm sure you've had your share of encounters with less than safe operation of recreational craft, I know I have. It would seem to me that anyone going out on the water would see the responsibility to themselves, their passengers and other vessels operating in the same area, such does not appear to always be the case.

Even as a recreational boater I'm frequently amazed at the number of morons out there. So many people don't know what they're doing and as long as they can get the boat out and back with their load of beer, they don't care to learn or improve their skills.

 

[Fish53]

Even as a recreational boater I'm frequently amazed at the number of morons out there. So many people don't know what they're doing and as long as they can get the boat out and back with their load of beer, they don't care to learn or improve their skills.

This forum would seem to be a place where boat owners could go to expand their knowledge and skills yet there appears to be some resistance to that.