What does radar do that my eyes can't?

[rsn48]

I've got the same Garmin (first time radar). I haven't stumbled around using it enough to get the color-coded tracks on radar targets.

I had to turn the feature on if I remember correctly. Something like - "Turn tracking on" but don't hold me to this. Think its on the main screen.

 

[Seevee]

Here's an example of how radar can help. I was anchored in a cove on a beautiful sunny day when the wind changed direction 180* and started howling. I raised the anchor and headed toward our marina which was about 5 miles away. This is the view we had as we were coming out of the cove.

I could see a small boat headed toward us from about 3/4 mile away. I knew I was not going to be able to see when that rain hit us so I flipped on the radar. It timed in just about the time the rain hit.

We slow cruised along the lee side of the river as we headed home. I couldn't see 50 yards but the radar kept track of that other boat even as it passed us.

About 3/4 of the way home we took a lightening strike that blew out all the flybridge electronics and the winds ripped up my upper bimini. I found out later that the winds were clocked at 70+mph.

All of this happened on the Columbia River, with no open waters anywhere around. Never underestimate the need for a radar. You never know when it's going to be needed.

I could argue strongly that marine radar is a poor tool for fighting weather. Heck, in your situation you could just look out the window. And, if you have internet you could have most likely predicted this.


And, second, generally in a boat, you can't out run weather. Perhaps out maneuver it, but hard to out run it. And on a river, you can't even out maneuver it.



Perhaps just staying put and hunkering down would have been a better choice.

 

[Comodave]

Basically you can’t fight the weather, just work with or around it. We use radar to run around rain cells. I have used it to dodge rainstorms and I can see them coming miles away.

 

[Group9]

We don't use our radar much, but it's sure nice to have it when you need it. Offshore on a moonless night, it is kind of reassuring to have it going.

 

[backinblue]

Here's an example of how radar can help. I was anchored in a cove on a beautiful sunny day when the wind changed direction 180* and started howling. I raised the anchor and headed toward our marina which was about 5 miles away. This is the view we had as we were coming out of the cove.

I could see a small boat headed toward us from about 3/4 mile away. I knew I was not going to be able to see when that rain hit us so I flipped on the radar. It timed in just about the time the rain hit.

We slow cruised along the lee side of the river as we headed home. I couldn't see 50 yards but the radar kept track of that other boat even as it passed us.

About 3/4 of the way home we took a lightening strike that blew out all the flybridge electronics and the winds ripped up my upper bimini. I found out later that the winds were clocked at 70+mph.

All of this happened on the Columbia River, with no open waters anywhere around. Never underestimate the need for a radar. You never know when it's going to be needed.

Seems strange to me that weather that severe could catch you by surprise. I'm a bit obsessive about the weather in general, but especially when boating. As far as tracking storms on radar, why not use any number of weather apps or websites for that? Glad it worked out for you, but trying to outrun a storm like that could have ended badly. I would have stayed put and let out more anchor rode and hunkered down.

 

[Fish53]

Absolutely not. I will never be "at sea" so they don't concern me.

Sadly this is a prevalent attitude these days. For their, mine and everyone else's safety on the water you would think that those choosing to operate a boat would strive to be the best mariner they can be, such is obviously not the case.

 

[Seevee]

Sadly this is a prevalent attitude these days. For their, mine and everyone else's safety on the water you would think that those choosing to operate a boat would strive to be the best mariner they can be, such is obviously not the case.

Fish,


Totally agreed. Seems like this forum attracts many very accomplished and safety conscious boaters that we all can learn from. The OPs first message implied that he was looking for some good ideas and operating procedures. He got PLENTY of good advise, only to shun it off and seems to "do it his way", right or wrong. Hope he's salvageable ...... just glad I don't boat in his area.

 

[backinblue]

Fish,


Totally agreed. Seems like this forum attracts many very accomplished and safety conscious boaters that we all can learn from. The OPs first message implied that he was looking for some good ideas and operating procedures. He got PLENTY of good advise, only to shun it off and seems to "do it his way", right or wrong. Hope he's salvageable ...... just glad I don't boat in his area.

I agree, although I did think his original question was rather odd when I read it. I'll admit that I am not very experienced with radar but this thread has convinced me to start playing with it more. But even with limited experience, at least I know in theory what radar does and why it's useful.

 

[Fish53]

Fish,


Totally agreed. Seems like this forum attracts many very accomplished and safety conscious boaters that we all can learn from. The OPs first message implied that he was looking for some good ideas and operating procedures. He got PLENTY of good advise, only to shun it off and seems to "do it his way", right or wrong. Hope he's salvageable ...... just glad I don't boat in his area.

I spent many years in Dutch Harbor where just about everyone was an accomplished seaman. The contrast between that and places that swarm with pleasure boaters who have less than a clue is staggering. I also ran ferries for the State of Maine where summer fog is frequent and I could tell some amazing stories. Radar isn't all that difficult to master, like anything you just have to use it and do a little study.

 

[stubones99]

I was able to find the old manual online just now. The operations section is over 40 pages, so I've got a lot of reading, and subsequent experimentation to do.

I just didn't know if it was still worth it to keep aboard. Knowing nothing about radar, much less analog radar, it just really looks value-less to me. But if it does everything y'all have said it can do, then I'll get to reading.

Turn the radar on some day when you're bored and fiddle with it. Even an old working radar is better than no radar. Play with it in the daytime, so you can see what it's showing on the display. Switch ranges and see if it shows nearby boats other objects. There are probably youtube videos on your radar system...

 

[Cigatoo]

Turn the radar on some day when you're bored and fiddle with it. Even an old working radar is better than no radar. Play with it in the daytime, so you can see what it's showing on the display. Switch ranges and see if it shows nearby boats other objects. There are probably youtube videos on your radar system...

What Stubones99 said.
When you do turn it on and fiddle with it do it in a relatively non congested area. Trying to understand what you are seeing at the dock or in a congested area will make you crazy until you better understand the radar returns.

 

[localboy]

I learned to use ours when the weather was good and visibility almost unlimited. Turned it on and ran while noting what my eyes observed and how that equated to what the radar returned. Fiddled with different settings, gain, declutter etc. It was invaluable. When we required it due to thick fog, I felt comfortable in running slowly and relying on the unit AND a careful watch. We have lots of logs and the radar won’t pick those up; they are too low in the water.

 

[koliver]

IWe have lots of logs and the radar won’t pick those up; they are too low in the water.

In calm conditions, the best radar I have had (of only 3) was an old Furuno CRT unit that could pick out logs, seagulls, crab floats, bits of flotsam, anything small, with proper tuning. My present Raymarine Raster unit can be tuned to do the same, but the tuning takes more work.
That is when a second Radar would be nice, one for basic navigation and one for logs.

 

[fgarriso]

" Fourth, I cannot foresee any circumstances where I would need radar, because I've never needed it in the past. and thus never learned how to use it. "


Thoughts?

I am not going to say what I think about your statement!
YOUR inability to learn is NOT a reason for not needing it.

 

[Fish53]

I am not going to say what I think about your statement!
YOUR inability to learn is NOT a reason for not needing it.

I didn't need heart surgery before needing it, now I'm glad I had it.

 

[GFC]

In regards to some of the comments posted above:

I gave a moment's thought to staying put but given the small size of the cove we were in and how quickly the wind changed from a light breeze from the north with sunny skies, to 70mph winds and the approaching storm coming from the south, I decided to take my chances in the river which is about 1/2 mile wide in that area. Much more room to maneuver in the river.

The wind blew the boat 180* from our anchored position with the stern facing south and swung us around to a position where the stern was facing due north. It took about a minute for that to happen and that's when I decided to lift anchor and head out into the river. The bottom in that cove is all sand and doesn't afford much holding power when the winds kick up.

Here's the cove we were in. 46°14'21.4"N 119°13'23.0"W If you look at it on Google Earth you will see the cove is only about 350' wide (N-S). Also, the entry to the cove is very shallow off the point on the north side of the entry point and there are docks to the south. That makes for a "channel" of about 25-30 yards wide. Not a good place to be in that kind of weather.

As to our boat speed on my return to my marina, it was only slightly above cocktail speed. The rain was coming down and blowing so hard it felt like I was getting stung by bees. My wife was downstairs with her mother. I had to call her on the intercom and ask her to bring up my foul weather jacket.

One can arm chair quarterback the decisions I made that day but, without your being there to experience it first hand I don't give them much credence. I relied on my many years of experience to make the decisions I did and, given a similar situation in the future I'd do the same thing.

 

[localboy]

In calm conditions, the best radar I have had (of only 3) was an old Furuno CRT unit that could pick out logs, seagulls, crab floats, bits of flotsam, anything small, with proper tuning. My present Raymarine Raster unit can be tuned to do the same, but the tuning takes more work.
That is when a second Radar would be nice, one for basic navigation and one for logs.

I’ve messed with it and it will pick up crab pot floats/buoys, especially at slow speeds, which we would generally be doing in limited vis. Lots of logs here are “floating” just under the water’s surface and “bob” out up and down. Very scary. I met a guy that hit one at full speed in a small runabout, at night, outside Everett, WA. The boat almost sank and the outboard and stern were severely damaged. I have not had much luck tuning the unit to find those.

It’s a Garmin 18HD.

 

[localboy]

I didn't need heart surgery before needing it, now I'm glad I had it.

Like an umbrella...



...or a pistol.

 

[koliver]

I’ve messed with it and it will pick up crab pot floats/buoys, especially at slow speeds, which we would generally be doing in limited vis. Lots of logs here are “floating” just under the water’s surface and “bob” out up and down. Very scary. I met a guy that hit one at full speed in a small runabout, at night, outside Everett, WA. The boat almost sank and the outboard and stern were severely damaged. I have not had much luck tuning the unit to find those.

It’s a Garmin 18HD.

Nothing will see bobbers when they are down, and in choppy water not much will find them when they are up.

 

[backinblue]

I’ve messed with it and it will pick up crab pot floats/buoys, especially at slow speeds, which we would generally be doing in limited vis. Lots of logs here are “floating” just under the water’s surface and “bob” out up and down. Very scary. I met a guy that hit one at full speed in a small runabout, at night, outside Everett, WA. The boat almost sank and the outboard and stern were severely damaged. I have not had much luck tuning the unit to find those.

It’s a Garmin 18HD.

First question is why is someone running at full speed in the dark?

 

[Comodave]

First question is why is someone running at full speed in the dark?

Several possible reasons, they are idiots, they don’t have a brain and maybe they are lining up for the Darwin Challenge???

 

[psneeld]

There are other reason that some may never get...but in all likelyhood, that person probably had little reason for running fast. But it is possible the risk assesment was in favor of running fast.

 

[Comodave]

They don’t know what a risk assessment is. They aren’t trained, just people running fast in the dark, a lot of the time fueled with alcohol.

 

[MYTraveler]

A few thoughts:
1) Learning how to operate radar well enough to make it a valuable tool doesn't take much effort (maybe 30 minutes, certainly not more than an hour or two) or any theoretical understanding;

2) As others have said, run it during the day, and make a habit out of visually finding the boats (and other returns) that your radar is showing and vice versa. That will help you learn, with confidence what boats, etc., look like, as compared to noise, and that some targets cannot be seen with your radar.

3) To do chart overlays, you will need a heading sensor.

4) Most radars have a feature called ARPA (automatic radar plotting aid), which will automatically calculate valuable collision avoidance info, primarily the other vessels' closest point of approach ("CPA", ie, how close you and that vessel will be, at the closest, if you both maintain your current course and speed) and time to closest point of approach ("TCPA", ie, how long until you will be at your closest. You can also set alarms to let you know if a tracked vessel is on a course that will bring you within a maximum CPA that you set, within a time that you set. When offshore, I generally set my ARPA alarm to sound whenever there is another vessel that will be within 2 miles of me, within 20 minutes. ARPA provides data, too, for example a target vessel's course, speed and bearing. Many recreational radars have MARPA, not ARPA, the M meaning "mini" -- I believe the primary difference is the number of vessels that can be tracked simultaneously.

5) ARPA / MARPA is very useful in coastal (and offshore) areas (but useless in a harbor or other congested areas, especially where other vessels are constantly changing course), even in the day, as it does a very good job of keeping track of traffic for you. And it is fun to use. Although you can set your radar to automatically "acquire" other vessels, they can be manually set by highlighting the target and clicking on it. The radar then superimposes an icon that changes shape as the vessel is acquired -- before long, you get the final shape which means you have a "firing solution".

6) New radars are much easier to use than the older ones. In most circumstances, it isn't necessary to adjust anything -- just put it on auto. A word of caution, improperly adjusting things like interference rejection, gain, clutter control, etc., can filter out legitimate targets, and it is very hard to know when you have over filtered -- one more reason to practice during the day and find the boats you see on the radar screen. After a while, you will realize that the radar can see virtually everything long before you do.

7) A good radar will pick up even dolphins breaking the surface on a calm day. I learned that while off shore on a buddies new boat. We were stuck in thick fog, buy I could see another boat was on a collision course with us. We altered course and almost immediately the other boat did too. Several times in a row. So, we stopped the boat, with the other boat heading straight toward us, and my intention was to wait until I could see the other boat, and if I visually concluded that we were going to be hit, I was prepared to accelerate hard. After a tense minute or so, we saw a pod of dolphins looking to play. (For the purists, we were also sounding our fog horn.)

 

[psneeld]

They don’t know what a risk assessment is. They aren’t trained, just people running fast in the dark, a lot of the time fueled with alcohol.

You don't have to be trained to think risk assessment....people have been doing it for centuries. It might have been formalized in the 90s for the DOD and USCG...but it was around for a long time. Safe people have been using it for a bunch of their lives.


Alcohol isn't always the catalyst for bad decisions.

 

[Comodave]

I didn’t say always, I said a lot of the time.

 

[Constellation1]

I didn’t say always, I said a lot of the time.

And I agree with you, Dave. Four years with the Coast Guard Auxiliary and 83% of our calls involved operators who had a relationship with alcohol that day.

 

[Bill V]

First, cruising offshore is basically never going to happen. Second, we have no lower helm, so I'm ALWAYS at the very top of the boat driving. Third, we have no auto pilot, so I'm ALWAYS at the wheel. Fourth, I cannot foresee any circumstances where I would need radar, because I've never needed it in the past. and thus never learned how to use it.

Like you I have no lower helm and I'm always at the upper helm. After installing radar 12 years ago I ran everytime with it on and operating. I wanted to see what it showed when I could see what it was "seeing". Sure was nice when i got into fog. I do have auto pilot but only use it at slow cruise below 10 mph. Don't really go off shore other then fishing trips 50-60 miles out. Having dual chart plotters and depth sounders with radar gives me a lot of confidence when cruising out of my home "turf".

 

[Seevee]

In regards to some of the comments posted above:

I gave a moment's thought to staying put but given the small size of the cove we were in and how quickly the wind changed from a light breeze from the north with sunny skies, to 70mph winds and the approaching storm coming from the south, I decided to take my chances in the river which is about 1/2 mile wide in that area. Much more room to maneuver in the river.

The wind blew the boat 180* from our anchored position with the stern facing south and swung us around to a position where the stern was facing due north. It took about a minute for that to happen and that's when I decided to lift anchor and head out into the river. The bottom in that cove is all sand and doesn't afford much holding power when the winds kick up.

Here's the cove we were in. 46°14'21.4"N 119°13'23.0"W If you look at it on Google Earth you will see the cove is only about 350' wide (N-S). Also, the entry to the cove is very shallow off the point on the north side of the entry point and there are docks to the south. That makes for a "channel" of about 25-30 yards wide. Not a good place to be in that kind of weather.

As to our boat speed on my return to my marina, it was only slightly above cocktail speed. The rain was coming down and blowing so hard it felt like I was getting stung by bees. My wife was downstairs with her mother. I had to call her on the intercom and ask her to bring up my foul weather jacket.

One can arm chair quarterback the decisions I made that day but, without your being there to experience it first hand I don't give them much credence. I relied on my many years of experience to make the decisions I did and, given a similar situation in the future I'd do the same thing.

GFC,


I owe you an apology. I wasn't there and it wasn't appropriate to tell you what YOU should have done. That's your choice. And often there's a lot of different circumstances that we don't know about.


Carry on.....

 

[Jmarsh203]

I’m in the running with radar if the boats moving no matter the condition team. If you run with it even in good conditions you will have trust and knowledge of how valuable the tool is when conditions have deteriorated or you decide to run the boat at night when you usually do not. I actually prefer running 2 radars of different types if I have the option. The open array units have more power and detail at further ranges than the solid state units do and the solid state units work much better at closer distances. So running two completely different types of arrays gives you the best of both worlds and a clearer picture of the situation overall. I know what the specs say but not all 40+ mile radars are created equal, the ability to show a coastline is very different than showing a birds,boat or inlet at those ranges and both the newer and older open array units excel at extended ranges and a solid state unit will not do that. I work on tow boats and at night radar is our eyes, we do not really change our speed unless conditions deteriorate as the radar units are good enough to run in completely dark conditions if you become accustomed to it, rarely do I turn on the spotlights or flood lights.