Are we trusting the unreliable?

[psneeld]

The poor reliability of cell phones when cruising is what brought VHF into the discussion.

Poor reliability or relying on them in areas of spotty coverage?

Think VHF works well 100 miles offshore or up rivers with a lot of dead areas?

 

[Benthic2]

I was thinking more of the boaters that go raft up at the beach, or pull their kids around on tubes....not those venturing 100 miles off shore.

 

[psneeld]

So cel phones arent unreliable, they just arent always the best tool for the job. Sometimes better.

 

[Lepke]

I'm an old, navy trained navigator and spent 40 years doing it manually. I like the electronics and no longer plot on paper, but I still do manual fixes in addition to what the gps is telling me. I run 2 computers, a desktop pc and when it's out of the shop, a 17" mac powerbook. It's been down and in and out of the shop for 6 month now.
Also, I have found gps isn't always within advertised accuracy. Especially in high northern latitudes.

 

[twistedtree]

I'm an old, navy trained navigator and spent 40 years doing it manually. I like the electronics and no longer plot on paper, but I still do manual fixes in addition to what the gps is telling me. I run 2 computers, a desktop pc and when it's out of the shop, a 17" mac powerbook. It's been down and in and out of the shop for 6 month now.
Also, I have found gps isn't always within advertised accuracy. Especially in high northern latitudes.

I'll bet GPS is still a lot more accurate than your bearing fixes

 

[schrater]

I have paper charts, and I know how to use them. I even enjoy it. But my main navigation is done on an iPad with Navionics. A waterproof case, long battery life, portability, built-in internet even on the go, and rock solid OS...hard to think of anything MORE reliable on my boat.

 

[JDCAVE]

And for that crowd, is it is bad as many make it sound?

Any stats on lives lost because of no VHF?

I know you have said in the past that we should not speculate about the circumstances and causes of marine accidents until the official reports at in but it happens:

http://www.nanaimobulletin.com/news/2-dead-3-in-stable-condition-after-boat-goes-down-near-tofino/

"Sub-Lt. Melissa Kia with the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Victoria said someone on the boat made a distress call around 1:20 p.m.

“We were able to talk with the vessel, live, to confirm that the five passengers were abandoning into the water. While the boat was attempting to get in a better position to speak with us via cellphone, it lost communications with the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre,” she said."

Jim

 

[Insequent]

I built a desktop PC almost 5 years ago for Nav station in pilothouse. A few months ago I had to replace a video card, and put in one that was much more powerful but cost a fraction of the price of the original one. It just keeps on running without issues.

About the same time my daughter's MacBook Pro stopped working - her bag contained a water bottle that leaked. The Apple service folks said it was beyond economic repair. So we replaced it and put the old one in a cupboard. A year later we moved house and I rediscovered the old MacBook. Just for kicks I connected the power and 5 minutes later tried to start it. It booted up fine! So I installed a new larger hard disc and re-purposed it to be the backup Nav computer for the boat. It too just keeps on working.

I also use an iPad, mostly for the daily newspapers and books. I find it somewhat unreliable - probably due to some pretty flaky apps, although the OS may not be as robust as that on a PC or laptop either. I think anyone using a tablet for nav would be well advised to have a backup system running at the same time!

 

[sunchaser]

I have paper charts, and I know how to use them. I even enjoy it. But my main navigation is done on an iPad with Navionics. A waterproof case, long battery life, portability, built-in internet even on the go, and rock solid OS...hard to think of anything MORE reliable on my boat.

What are your normal cruising grounds?

 

[Benthic2]

I know you have said in the past that we should not speculate about the circumstances and causes of marine accidents until the official reports at in but it happens:

UPDATE: Fatal Tofino boat accident under investigation - Nanaimo News Bulletin

"Sub-Lt. Melissa Kia with the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Victoria said someone on the boat made a distress call around 1:20 p.m.

“We were able to talk with the vessel, live, to confirm that the five passengers were abandoning into the water. While the boat was attempting to get in a better position to speak with us via cellphone, it lost communications with the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre,” she said."

Jim

I would assume that a professional charter boat would be fully equipped with VHF, but it obviously didn't have DSC capability or they didn't use it. The initial search for the victims was 6 miles away from the actual site of the capsize. The CG said they launched a boat within 4 minutes of the call, but the victims were in the water for 90 minutes because they didn't know the location.

Another interesting factor here is that once the Coast Guard had the call they put out a notice on Channel 16 only, and local boaters are asking why it wasn't on either all channels, or Ch. 68, which aparently is what most of the local fishing boats monitor. There's speculation that if they used an all channel bulletin there would have been more private vessels involved in the search.

update: aparently they had misreported their position when they called on. The initial distress call was by cell phone.

 

[tpbrady]

In the last 12 years the most common failure I have experienced is my watch. Never had a failure of a computer (even with the pounding on a 22 ft C-Dory) or any other electronics other than a tired autopilot, but I have had 3 watches quit and not for batteries. Two of them I replaced in Sitka in the last year. I wonder if the hot tubs at Warm Springs were the problem.

Tom

 

[psneeld]

I know you have said in the past that we should not speculate about the circumstances and causes of marine accidents until the official reports at in but it happens:

UPDATE: Fatal Tofino boat accident under investigation - Nanaimo News Bulletin

"Sub-Lt. Melissa Kia with the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Victoria said someone on the boat made a distress call around 1:20 p.m.

“We were able to talk with the vessel, live, to confirm that the five passengers were abandoning into the water. While the boat was attempting to get in a better position to speak with us via cellphone, it lost communications with the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre,” she said."

Jim

My initial point was 2 fold.

One, that cel phones are reliable, just not always the best tool for boating communications.

But the USCG has found that many DSC radios aren't registered and the GPS not hooked up....so where there is good cel service, amateur boaters may be better off using a cel phone app for distress.

And point two was, that in many boating areas, the vast majority of boaters are on smaller vessels, don't venture far or into open waters, boat in benign conditions and there are so many of them, rescue vessels have to weave through boats to even get to them. These were the type boaters I was referring to, beginners who have no clue about VHF....and a debatable need for it.

As to boating in the Pacific Northwest without good VHF and a host of other safety and survival equipment, that is a different story.

Applying every concept in boating to all boating, all boaters, all boating areas all boats.....etc...etc... will always get a comment from me. The cel phone post was specifically focused on as it was misleading in my experience.

 

[sunchaser]

There are oh so many fisherman in their very small boats weekending in these difficult waters off the west coast of VI. Unfortunately sad tales abound, and have for a few centuries.

JD, were they wearing full immersion suits or red rain gear?

 

[Seevee]

As for reliability, it's probably hard to beat a paper chart, but it comes with a host of disadvantages, so it's not for me. Gave up on paper years ago.

I could argue the most reliable is probably a good marine GPS plotter.

The iPad can fail because of an app failure, battery failure or just failing to get the right triangular position, and in not as accuracy as a GPS plotter.

The phone vs. a VHF are about the same. They are both line of sight, but you could get a vessel to relay a message with VHF that you won't with a phone. And the VHF is going right to the Coast Guard, or other boats that could help. The phone is not.

The laptop is fine, but I find it awkward in a boat while operating. But great for planning.

 

[Benthic2]

My initial point was 2 fold.


But the USCG has found that many DSC radios aren't registered and the GPS not hooked up........ I was referring to, beginners who have no clue about VHF......

I'm not usually a fan of any more legislation than we need, but there's a law that I need to wear my seat belt in my car, have a smoke detector in my house, and keep a trigger lock on my handgun. With the cost of a DSC equipped handheld at $200 or so, they should be required eqipment on any vessel over a certain size, or anything with an engine. The fact that people don't know how to use them, or register them should not be grounds for lowered expectations of people's responsibility to take care of themselves.

There is a trend these days to charge hikers and mountain climbers who get lost for their search and rescue if their behavior was deemed negligent. I think the Coast Guard should be doing the same thing. If you go 25 miles off shore in a 12 foot boat and need to get rescued, you should pay for that. If you take your boat out in conditions that exceed yours or your boats capability, and need to be rescued, you should pay. IF you don't have a registered DSC VHF and know how to use it, your behavior is negligent and you should bear the cost of your rescue.

Before everyone goes off on me, I'm NOT saying the captain in that story was negligent. I don't know that area, and what the VHF situation is regarding how remote it is, how far away the Coast Guard is, or what its like using a radio around so many islands with elevation that could block transmissions. That boat was a professional charter boat so I'd assume that they were properly equipped and had a knowledable captain, and there may have been a reason for using a cell phone and not knowing his location. Time will tell. I DO think its time that GPS and VHF are added to the required equipment list for vessels.

 

[Ski in NC]

In the Bahamas, my laptop failed. It sits behind the port pilothouse window, and the helm is on stbd. Turns out it was in full sunlight and it overheated. I disconnected it and put it in a cooler place. Went back to using my old Furuno sounder/plotter that has rudimentary charts.

After a few hours I tried the laptop again. Worked fine. From then on I made some provision to keep the sun off of it.

I keep some paper charts. Not small scale for everywhere, but large scale works fine for backup nav.

 

[schrater]

What are your normal cruising grounds?

I cruise in the coastal areas of the PNW. Does that make a difference?

 

[Seevee]

I'm not usually a fan of any more legislation than we need, but there's a law that I need to wear my seat belt in my car, have a smoke detector in my house, and keep a trigger lock on my handgun. With the cost of a DSC equipped handheld at $200 or so, they should be required eqipment on any vessel over a certain size, or anything with an engine. The fact that people don't know how to use them, or register them should not be grounds for lowered expectations of people's responsibility to take care of themselves.

There is a trend these days to charge hikers and mountain climbers who get lost for their search and rescue if their behavior was deemed negligent. I think the Coast Guard should be doing the same thing. If you go 25 miles off shore in a 12 foot boat and need to get rescued, you should pay for that. If you take your boat out in conditions that exceed yours or your boats capability, and need to be rescued, you should pay. IF you don't have a registered DSC VHF and know how to use it, your behavior is negligent and you should bear the cost of your rescue.

Before everyone goes off on me, I'm NOT saying the captain in that story was negligent. I don't know that area, and what the VHF situation is regarding how remote it is, how far away the Coast Guard is, or what its like using a radio around so many islands with elevation that could block transmissions. That boat was a professional charter boat so I'd assume that they were properly equipped and had a knowledable captain, and there may have been a reason for using a cell phone and not knowing his location. Time will tell. I DO think its time that GPS and VHF are added to the required equipment list for vessels.

B,

I whole heartedly agree with you that there should be a charge for rescue if the skipper was negligent.

But I'm not for legislation at all, as we are way over regulated all ready. It's been proven that we cannot make laws that protect ourselves from stupidity... it will always be here.

 

[psneeld]

I can usually make a case that the skipper was negligent in some manner or form for any rescue except possibly a MEDEVAC of a passenger, and even then most of the time.

The USCG has debated this topic so many times with the outcome that charging becomes a slippery slope.

 

[Roamer Blue]

Do we really want those "great unwashed masses" all owning a VHF, and actually transmitting on it????

It'll be like, and worse than, the CB craze of the 70's all over again?

What is wrong with natural selection anyway?

RB

 

[Codger2]

As for reliability, it's probably hard to beat a paper chart, but it comes with a host of disadvantages, so it's not for me. Gave up on paper years ago.

I could argue the most reliable is probably a good marine GPS plotter.

I agree with the above statements. I have current paper charts on board but they are for planning and study only. I have never had a computer Nav set up as I'm really not that adept with a computer and find my chart plotters incredibly intuitive. i have relied on the MFDs since 1995 and have never had a problem with them.

 

[psneeld]

My point exactly...along the US East coast in the summer...in the most crowded areas, you can step from boat to boat practically.

Most never leave a 10 mile radius of their home dock, are never out of sight of land or other boats and rarely out of cel range.

For them a VHF is not necessary.

With electronics the way they are these days, boats could just have a red and rellow button on the dash that sends a DSC transmission.

Red for distress, yellow for assistance towing.

You read it here first...if it ever happens...

 

[Codger2]

Most never leave a 10 mile radius of their home dock, are never out of sight of land or other boats and rarely out of cel range..........With electronics the way they are these days, boats could just have a red and rellow button on the dash that sends a DSC transmission.

Red for distress, yellow for assistance towing.

That's a damn good idea!

 

[Benthic2]

Its exactly those crowded weekend boater situations that make a VHF so valuable. The CG may be an hour away but there's probably another casual boater much closer, who would get an alert over a VHF if properly equipped, but may be totally unaware of a rescue situation going on right near them if the distressed person calls for help on a cell phone.

And think of all the times when you read about boating fatalities....so often there is a delay in locating the accident, and when it comes to drowning and hypothermia, minutes matter.

 

[JDCAVE]

All: I haven't followed up on this event, but it does "seem likely" that the evident lack of VHF distress call resulted in a slower rescue. Cell service is ephemeral at best in that area and other boaters in the area would be unaware of the circumstances until coast guard broadcast the situation. Evidently there was uncertainty as to the location of the capsized vessel. PSN's comments are true enough: just because you have a VHF doesn't mean it is correctly installed or the operator knows how to use it.

We are in the waters north of Vancouver Island right now where a cell phone is useless for distress calls.

 

[psneeld]

Its exactly those crowded weekend boater situations that make a VHF so valuable. The CG may be an hour away but there's probably another casual boater much closer, who would get an alert over a VHF if properly equipped, but may be totally unaware of a rescue situation going on right near them if the distressed person calls for help on a cell phone.

And think of all the times when you read about boating fatalities....so often there is a delay in locating the accident, and when it comes to drowning and hypothermia, minutes matter.

Sorry but 20 years USCG operational and another 15 as assistance tower, I disagree.

Theory yes, practical implementation no. You are assuming the operator can successfully and efficiently use the VHF.

The busier the area, the more people tend to turn off their VHF or just ignore it.

Also, most of my rescue operations have proven that minute or so matters in very few cases. Either it happens or it doesn't.....maybe hour(s) or so, but not minutes.

Again, a cel phone with a good distress app is probably just as good. The USCG could do better in relaying that info.

A rescue that revolves around minutes has way more factors involved in a successful resolution than just communications.

And to make it perfectly clear...VHF is a valuable tool much of the time...but less so for the limited scope I initially responded to that was misleading.

 

[Benthic2]

You've got a lot of experience with this, so I'll have to defer to you. My experience is that I am part of that weekend trailer boating crowd. Very few of my fellow boaters have VHF's and I'm always surprised when intelligent cautious people take their families out on a boat without both a GPS and a VHF. I will admit that I don't always have mine on, so I won't always be aware of another's problems....but if I had problems I'd certainly reach for it before my cell phone. I also suspect my handheld VHF would work farther offshore than a cell phone, and I like that I don't have to try and read GPS numbers in the middle of a crisis....they are automatically sent.

 

[Seevee]

I could argue strongly that most any boat should have a VHF radio. There just too cheap not to have one, and instant communication with the Coast Guard.

Heck, I have one on my windsurfer and kayak, and shopping for one with DSC.

 

[psneeld]

I could argue strongly that most any boat should have a VHF radio. There just too cheap not to have one, and instant communication with the Coast Guard.

Heck, I have one on my windsurfer and kayak, and shopping for one with DSC.

True, but then the list of safety equipment becomes a slippery slope.

Right now even anchors arent mandatory.

The USCG investigates and regulates boating safety.

My guess is that if any particular puece of equipment past PFDs really did all that much, it would be required.

And none of it works 100% in saving lives or making rescue easier...so the equipment isnt required.

 

[sunchaser]

The laptop is fine, but I find it awkward in a boat while operating. But great for planning.

We have used laptops for years, not awkward at all vs on board plotters. Our laptops are normally secured with lids down and utilizing a live monitor via a mouse when cruising.

BTW, in the mountainous waters of BC and AK the CGs have repeater stations alleviating some of the line of sight issues. This is particularly helpful for weather updates and distress calls.