Victron 3000 installation question

[Tator]

I'm in the process of installing my Victron 3000 Multiplus and have come upon this statement in the manual concerning the AC output line which has left me a bit confused, "An earth leakage circuit breaker and a fuse or circuit breaker rated to support the expected load must be included in
series with the output, and cable cross-section must be sized accordingly." My old Trace inverter did not require this. I assumed that the unit would have some sort of built-in protection for the AC output. I can add a 30amp breaker to an unused space on the bottom of my panel and wire the incoming wire to that breaker. Two specific questions. 1.Do I need both an elcb as well as a fuse or/and another breaker. 2. My breakers are single pole and do not break the neutral. Will these suffice?

I would appreciate any thoughts on this and how I should proceed.

Tator

 

[koliver]

Tator
Your question hasn't received any responses, so the only post on this thread is your original post, yesterday. There have been enough posts since then to fill the "Trawler Discussions" panel on the right, so all of yesterday's activity has dropped off the bottom, which is normal. Perhaps this bump will generate the activity you were expecting.

 

[Tator]

My question wasn't concerning the panel on the right. It was trying to find my post when clicking on "New Posts" on the same banner as the log out.

I've had a little time to do further research on my original question and, if I understand the info correctly, because I have an isolation transformer an ELCI breaker is not needed.

Tator

 

[READY]

I am no electrician but I would think an elcb on the output would still be required. Your isolation protects you from the shore but once you are getting power from your inverteer you need the elcb to protect all of your circuits feeding from the inverter.

 

[koliver]

My question wasn't concerning the panel on the right. It was trying to find my post when clicking on "New Posts" on the same banner as the log out.

I've had a little time to do further research on my original question and, if I understand the info correctly, because I have an isolation transformer an ELCI breaker is not needed.

Tator

I get it.

"New Posts" are related to your own viewing activity. When you have seen every post on a thread, it will no longer be "New" to you, so won't show up there. Nothing sinister going on here.

 

[tpbrady]

Tator,

Victron's statement in the manual may be referring to AC pass through when not inverting on shore power. I don't recall seeing that statement when I installed mine last year. It would seem in a marine installation where shore power already has an ELCI breaker, the addition of an ELCI after pass through would not really be performing a useful purpose. However after reading this article, https://waggonerguide.com/elci-protected-shore-power/, an ELCI breaker on a boat would add some degree of protection for leakage current where the shore power was not protected by an ELCI. I would need a marine electrician to weigh in on a ELCI when operating on generator or while inverting. Since everything is internal to the boat, I am not sure where leakage could occur that would cause a problem external to a boat but I was a forestry major so electricity is beyond my expertise. Time for professional help.

Tom

 

[Bmarler]

i haven't seen the victron manual, but thinking about abyc standards, i don't remember seeing any requirement for an elci on an inverter output. in fact, you don't need an onboard elci for shore power either if you have an isolation transformer installed. it seems like the transformer needs to be less than 10 feet from the power inlet, or something like that. (going from memory) also, i'm not abyc certified, but i studied the standard when re-wiring our boat's ac wiring.
i wonder if the victron manual might be aimed at european standards which at times is at odds with our abyc standards?
in my mind, the inverter itself should have some level of ground fault detection and report it as a fault.
i would recommend a breaker on the inverter output though, i think abyc wants one there. a double pole like you use on the shore inlet would seem appropriate. does the victron have any built in circuit breakers on it?
i believe there are a few abyc certified electricians on the forum, maybe one will chime in?

 

[READY]

My understanding of the purpose of the elci is to detect any leakage which shows as an enabalance. If correct then it seems like it would still be advisable to have on the output of the inverter. Would love to hear from one of the experts.

 

[Bmarler]

My understanding of the purpose of the elci is to detect any leakage which shows as an enabalance. If correct then it seems like it would still be advisable to have on the output of the inverter. Would love to hear from one of the experts.

when i did my inverter installation i had some guidance from an aybc electrician. my installation included a double pole breaker at the inverter output for the sub panel, but no elci.
i think iso standards might want the elci, and victron builds to iso standard if i'm not mistaken.
an elci is never a bad idea, but it is an added expense and takes up room where things are often tight already.

 

[luna]

Outback also states that you are to provide circuit protection to their inverter/charger's output conductors, although no ELCI is noted in my 2019 manuals.

My 25 year old Xantrex Freedom inverter/charger has a 30A push to reset bimetal type circuit breaker built it in, to protect the output conductors. It's barely adequate from a safety aspect but it still works, I test it yearly.

A typical installation would require circuit protection (say a 30A breaker) on the input power to the inverter/charger to protect the input power's conductors. Makes sense.

When the Inverter/charger is in Pass Through mode (80% +/- of the time) the output conductors are simply an extension of the input conductors, (the inverter/charger is just a switch and perhaps a charger) the 30A breaker is still in play, all properly sized conductors remain protected. No output breaker would be required.

When in Invert mode there is no power on the AC input conductors so the 30A breaker does nothing. The output conductors could see full inverter power output, say 30A with no circuit protection. This could be a problem, but the Inverter is a current limited power source so as long as the conductors are sized for full output current, where is the risk? The Mosfets inside will likely fail long before the properly sized conductors ignite.
This is not that far removed from having a fuse at the alternator (at the battery, yes) to protect the alternator's output conductor. Do you also have one of those?

I asked a number of "Professional" inverter installers, nobody puts circuit protection on correctly sized output conductors. I put it on mine, even though it is almost useless, other than as an off switch. Yes, I complied with Outback's lawyer's demands.

All of this could change if your inverter is one that can sync. to the AC input power and add additional power. Mine don't so I've never studied this but depending on the amount of power and for how long it's added, larger output conductors and a higher rated breaker with the proper Time Current Curve may be the order of the day.

As stated above an ELCI is not a bad idea unless all circuits served already have it.