Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-29-2021, 07:06 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
mikehar's Avatar
 
City: Olga, WA
Vessel Name: Gallivant
Vessel Model: Northern Marine 64
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 89
TimeZero Pro madness

This is mostly just a rant. I am in the process of upgrading my PH electronics over the next six months. One of the things I am going to do is to move TZPro from my laptop to a built-in NUC. I was setting up the NUC last night and ran into a problem. I thought I would install TZPro onto the NUC to get it set up, do some testing for a while before I made the final transition -- which will be months (I have to mount new hardware, cables, etc).

I thought I could install TZPro twice (Only true for Navigator, no Pro), it turns out I can only install it once. I contacted TimeZero/NobleTec about it thinking they could help me out, but no. They suggested I pay them $750 for a second license or uninstall the first copy. Not helpful.

Lucas from support has been pretty prompt, but he also dipped into the common support nonsense: no straight answer. I asked for help, he essentially said "no", not by saying no, but by restating options he had presented before. He suggested that I contact my dealer to help with this problem, which to me, implies that there is another option, which there isn't. It's that kind of support sleight of hand that really yanks my chain.




Time Zero Pro is a premium product. While I understand the perils of software piracy, this clearly isn't piracy. Or premium.
mikehar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2021, 09:23 PM   #2
Guru
 
syjos's Avatar


 
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Sandpiper
Vessel Model: Bluewater 40 Pilothouse Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,315
I was a Nobeltec dealer for over 25 years. I was their first independent dealer.

I started selling their first attempt, Navtrek, experienced their merger with ChartView and the introduction of Visual Navigation Suite (VNS) in 1999. Back then, the software was not copy protected so I would sell one boater VNS and he would burn multiple copies and share with friends. I did not sell many. Around 2000, VNS was copy protected and sales soared.

Around 2001, Nobeltec was acquired by Jeppesen, an aviation navigation software company. Within a year, Jeppesen, along with Nobeltec, was acquired by Boeing. Boeing was only interested in the aviation portion of Jeppensen and did not invest in Nobeltec, allowing Nobeltec to languish with no new significant development for years. Boeing/Jeppesen introduced expensive minor upgrades every other year forcing VNS owners to continually pay for insignificant upgrades. In 2018, Boeing divested itself of Nobeltec and Nobeltec merged with another navigation software firm, Max Seas. Boeing/Jeppsen retained VNS which forced the new Nobeltec to create new navigation software - Time Zero.

Though Time Zero has the wow factor, it does not improve upon the basic navigation capabilities of VNS. Nobeltec did not upgrade VNS to work with Windows XP which forced many VNS owners to upgrade to Time Zero. Time Zero, being developed very quickly, did not have many of the useful features of VNS and was extremely buggy for several years.

I felt really bad about all my clients spending a lot of $$ with the continual, costly VNS upgrades over the years and quit being a Nobeltec dealer after Time Zero was introduced.

I also sold Rose Point, so offered my VNS clients an opportunity to buy Rose Point Coastal Explorer at my cost. About 80% of my clients converted to RP CE. RP CE is similar to VNS but they do'nt release continual, costly upgrades.

Compared to VNS, Time Zero was/is a PITA.

VNS was probably the best navigation software created. I still utilize VNS on custom laptops running Windows XP.

Rose Point Coastal Explorer is a close second.

I would not spend the $750 for an upgrade. Do it and in a few years, you will be buying expensive unecssary upgrades - continually.

In the old days, a Nobeltec License allowed install on three computers. Nobeltec allowed the multiple installs for back up computers and second helms. Now, they are being greedy by not allowing additional installs.

You are correct, it's not about piracy, it's about maximizing profit.
syjos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2021, 12:23 PM   #3
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: North Vancouver
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,877
TimeZero Pro madness

Mike: you mentioned installing Timezero on a NUC. I installed Coastal Explorer on a NUC. CE allows up to 3 devices to be used under a licence. When I had to put it on another device I phoned them and they changed my licence to allow it. If all you want to do is navigate in Canada or the US, CE is all you need. You have access to NOAA and CHS Raster and ENC charts.

The NUC is a good device as a Nav computer. It’s portable, has a small footprint, can be secured to a bulkhead, can be wired into a House 12 volt system and you can take it home to update charts and software. I’m a big fan of the device. It’s been in place a number of years now.

Jim
JDCAVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2021, 11:05 PM   #4
Veteran Member
 
mikehar's Avatar
 
City: Olga, WA
Vessel Name: Gallivant
Vessel Model: Northern Marine 64
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by syjos View Post
I was a Nobeltec dealer for over 25 years. I was their first independent dealer.

I started selling their first attempt, Navtrek, experienced their merger with ChartView and the introduction of Visual Navigation Suite (VNS) in 1999. Back then, the software was not copy protected so I would sell one boater VNS and he would burn multiple copies and share with friends. I did not sell many. Around 2000, VNS was copy protected and sales soared.
I started buying VNS in about 2002. I had admiral and world charts, as I recall. I also remember the dongles. Ugh. I liked VNS but it was always a bit lacking, IMHO. It made me want to write my own system, but lucky for me, some folks I know did it for me. When Rose Point launched I jumped on that bandwagon and used that for years. I still have it and strongly considered moving to it. The TZ/Furuno partnership is what has reeled me into TZ. I have furuno gear on my boat and the ability to easily use the radars is nice.

FWIW, TZ isn't horrible. It's reasonably fast (hardware advances bailed them out) and it generally does what I need. The alarm stuff is goofy, it's still too hard to use, but it works. I agree with you, I don't think they have really moved the state of the art. Garmin and Navionics have been far more innovative. I strongly considered moving over to Garmin.

I don't really have a point here. Boat software is always behind the times. Small market, small investment. It does pain me to see companies that get such a great start and then just let their products rot on the vine (I'm looking at you, Mareton). It's hard to build a sustainable business in this industry, and Private Equity-driven consolidation hasn't helped.

I think the biggest change for me in the last 20 years wrt boat software is that I care about it less. 3D charts are useless. Simple, clean charts, easy to build routes, and helpers to let me schedule passage through rapids is really all I need. By far the biggest advance in charts in the last 20 years has been AIS overlays. Everything else feels very incremental.
mikehar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2021, 11:09 PM   #5
Veteran Member
 
mikehar's Avatar
 
City: Olga, WA
Vessel Name: Gallivant
Vessel Model: Northern Marine 64
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 89
I also have CE installed. I have leaned to TZ because of their Furuno integration. You can also share charts between TZ and Furuno, which is nice.

The NUC is awesome. Unfortunately, I don't have a 12v model, but it's still great and easy to detach for a quick trip home. It also gets my old windows laptop off the dash. I'm going to use this one to drive two 19' displays, I'm pretty excited about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCAVE View Post
Mike: you mentioned installing Timezero on a NUC. I installed Coastal Explorer on a NUC. CE allows up to 3 devices to be used under a licence. When I had to put it on another device I phoned them and they changed my licence to allow it. If all you want to do is navigate in Canada or the US, CE is all you need. You have access to NOAA and CHS Raster and ENC charts.

The NUC is a good device as a Nav computer. It’s portable, has a small footprint, can be secured to a bulkhead, can be wired into a House 12 volt system and you can take it home to update charts and software. I’m a big fan of the device. It’s been in place a number of years now.

Jim
mikehar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2021, 12:15 AM   #6
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikehar View Post

I thought I could install TZPro twice (Only true for Navigator, no Pro), it turns out I can only install it once. I contacted TimeZero/NobleTec about it thinking they could help me out, but no. They suggested I pay them $750 for a second license or uninstall the first copy. Not helpful.

Lucas from support has been pretty prompt, but he also dipped into the common support nonsense: no straight answer. I asked for help, he essentially said "no", not by saying no, but by restating options he had presented before. He suggested that I contact my dealer to help with this problem, which to me, implies that there is another option, which there isn't. It's that kind of support sleight of hand that really yanks my chain.




Time Zero Pro is a premium product. While I understand the perils of software piracy, this clearly isn't piracy. Or premium.
As strong fans of Time Zero, we've been around and around with them on their number of installs and pricing. They are clear on their website that Navigator is two and Professional is limited to one.
(1) - TZ Navigator can be installed on two computers
(2) - TZ Professional can only be installed on one computer
I understand their reasoning but never seemed to make much progress in getting them to understand mine. Getting them to grasp I was just using it as a front end for Furuno and the things I used it most for were not even done on the boat was a challenge.

When we first started with them, they were a low cost additional software of great benefit. Now, with all the extra charges for the other features and the chart costs, they are no longer the bargain they once were. Still, addicted, and we'll continue.

I think for some reason they didn't see recreational boaters using the professional model and I asked if they thought captains on yachts were not professional. Then they said well they were thinking commercial (now this is just one individual) and I laughed hysterically. He asked what was so funny and I asked how many commercial ships used Time Zero. I actually gave up and had it escalated and then let someone else on my side handle it.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2021, 05:55 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
woolf's Avatar
 
City: Med
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 135
We have long used MaxSea, and now TZ, and are o.k. with it. For the current installation, we bit the bullit and bought TZ Professional plus a second license (at half price, I think), as it is the only program integrating Furuno radar.

On the fixed 24VDC PC we have 2 high-rez screens connected, which is nice for running chart, radar and instruments in parallel, and is actually quite fast. The laptop running TZ is for planning at home, or back-up, as it can connect to one big screen parallel to the integrated display.

It works very well, but $$$. Unfortunately it remains the only solution for us, until CE finally comes up with Furuno radar integration.
__________________

woolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
nobletec, timezero

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012