stupid 3 part VHF antenna question

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Lets keep it simple, forget the theory behind all this, lets just define what you have, and define how to test it, without trying to describe the theory behind it. Which I believe is what the OP is interested in, antenna theory, vSWR, an antenna analyzer.... are all great, but you could read 50 books written by RF engineers over 20 years and still know next to nothing about rf theory. ;-)


I'm a licensed amateur radio operator, and know a tiny bit about antenna's. I'm no expert by any stretch, but maybe this will help.



Easiest test, plug it in, and try it! "Most" (not ALL) modern VHF radio's will protect themselves from a bad antenna. They will shutdown or reduce output power significantly if they sense a bad or no antenna connected. So worse case, it won't work, or won't work very good. Throw away and go buy a new antenna. Best case, it works great... Plug it in, tune to a known working WX radio station in your area, if you hear nothing, the antenna is not working, do not transmit on it. If you do hear WX, great, but it still does not mean the antenna is good, but it's a good start. (sometimes wx stations are so strong depending on where you are, you can receive them with a broken or no antenna!). Now tune to a local channel people use, like 68. NOT 16 which is for emergencies/CG. Ask for a radio check. If you know somebody else within 5 or 10 miles on the water, call them via phone ans ask to test it with you on ch 68 (or other ch). That way you know you not just being ignored. Some people hate answering "radio checks", mainly because many people do them all day long and on the wrong channels (like 16!).



A more robust test:

Looking at the picture of the antenna ends that screw together, you have an inner element (the actual part of the antenna that does the radiating), and an outer shield or dielectric (the fiberglass). The metal and threads used to screw the ends together, is really not part of the "radiating antenna", just the inner element is (the copper part). And the fiberglass is just a protective cover.


The first thing you need to do is clean off those ends, get all that grease and dirt off them, you want them spotless (you can add some dielectric protective grease later). Then, with the antenna separated, and NOT connected to the feed-line (coax cable), test it with a simple electric voltage meter to ensure it is not shorted out. To do this, put the meter on the continuity setting, make sure it works buy touching the two meter leads together, most meters will beep when touched together to indicate continuity (meaning, voltage can flow between them). Now hold one of the leads of the meter to the center element (copper part) of the antenna, being careful to not let that lead touch the outer part of the antenna (metal part with threads on it). Around the outside of that inner copper element you will see a small blackish area (grease), that is the area keeping the element from touching any other metal (the part with the threads) which would short out the antenna. Now take the 2nd lead from the meter, and touch it to the outer metal part with the threads, being careful not to touch the inner copper element, or the 1st lead your still holding. You should NOT hear a beep from the meter. In other words, there should not be continuity between the outer part of the antenna connectors, and the inner copper element. If the meter beeps, the antenna is shorted and likely garbage. Do this test on EACH section of the antenna (3 pieces I think you said?).



Next, you can get yourself a marine VHF swr/wattage meter to test if the antenna is ok, they cost about $100 at west marine, Shakespeare makes a simple easy to use one. Connect it inline between the radio and the antenna, and follow it's simple directions to test the swr of the antenna (as noted ideally it will be 1:1, but definitely should be less than 2:1). If it reads 2.5:1, or 3:1, or even 5:1 then something is wrong (either the feed-line or antenna is bad most likely).


In any case, TAKE THE PENNY's out, and do not put anything else in there. And CLEAN those connection points out first, wipe with a rag, then spray crc or wd40 on it, wipe clean.


Hope that helps...
 
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Shakespeare gets over $650 for the 3 piece v antenna. Can see why one would spend some time cleaning up the connections.
With the money saved, u can buy a low end antenna analyzer[emoji106] and not have to guess.
 
Shakespeare gets over $650 for the 3 piece v antenna. Can see why one would spend some time cleaning up the connections.
With the money saved, u can buy a low end antenna analyzer[emoji106] and not have to guess.


If you don't know how to use an antenna analyzer, or know what it's "results" actually mean, you would have wasted the money on the analyzer. ;) The results can very easily be mis-interpreted to be a bad antenna, when in fact it's really a bad feed line, or vice-versa, or any number of other things...
 
SWR Meter

Here are a few options to purchase an SWR meter. If there is anything wrong with the "antenna system" (=feedline+antenna) an SWR meter can help isolate the issue.

Option 1:

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/shakespeare--swr-watts-out-rx-sensitivity-meter--6886915

Option 2:
https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-005636

Option 3:
https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-010620

There are many others on the market among Ham Radio goods.
Check eBay! Radio Shack used to make one just like those shown above for $50 new!

While option 2 and 3 are shown to be for the 144-148 mhz 2-Meter band, that is close enough to the Marine VHF band to be accurate for marine VHF needs, and save a little money.

The theoretical ideal SWR is 1:1... anything under 1.5:1 is considered good-acceptable. As others have pointed out, most modern radios will protect themselves when the antenna mismatch is significantly out of whack like 3:1 or worse.
 
Here are a few options to purchase an SWR meter. If there is anything wrong with the "antenna system" (=feedline+antenna) an SWR meter can help isolate the issue.

Option 1:

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/shakespeare--swr-watts-out-rx-sensitivity-meter--6886915


WOW! The little "Shakey" swr meter sure went up in price!! I guess I'm showing my age a bit, I paid $29 for mine... updated my post above to reflect new prices...


You can buy a NanoVNA, color touchscreen "vector network analyzer" for $40 for heavens sake, does the same thing a $10k HP scope used to do. I love the nanovna, learning a lot with it, but I would not suggest on-techies to go that route.... steep learning curve...;)
 
Then, with the antenna separated, and NOT connected to the feed-line (coax cable), test it with a simple electric voltage meter to ensure it is not shorted out. To do this, put the meter on the continuity setting, make sure it works buy touching the two meter leads together, most meters will beep when touched together to indicate continuity (meaning, voltage can flow between them). Now hold one of the leads of the meter to the center element (copper part) of the antenna, being careful to not let that lead touch the outer part of the antenna (metal part with threads on it). Around the outside of that inner copper element you will see a small blackish area (grease), that is the area keeping the element from touching any other metal (the part with the threads) which would short out the antenna. Now take the 2nd lead from the meter, and touch it to the outer metal part with the threads, being careful not to touch the inner copper element, or the 1st lead your still holding. You should NOT hear a beep from the meter. In other words, there should not be continuity between the outer part of the antenna connectors, and the inner copper element. If the meter beeps, the antenna is shorted and likely garbage. Do this test on EACH section of the antenna (3 pieces I think you said?).

This is not a valid test for all antennas. For some (but not all) of the Shakespeare VHF antennas, they come with a warning that they'll read shorted on a DC continuity test. So a meter reading a short doesn't inherently mean the antenna is bad.
 
Hmmm. Not liking my low cost one box test solution. How about a old vector voltmeter, probe T’s, rf sig gen, dual directional coupler and a 70 y/o rf engineer to run it all.
 
I was in a job where SWR meters are very common but I doubt most boat owners really need such an RF-specific device.
A 21' VHF antenna is most likely some kind of collinear hi-gain antenna on the order of 10 dB, so that might be a reason to keep it and give it a try, though not many recreational boaters need such an antenna (not to start the debate about how much gain VHF needs, Ha!).
If you really want an SWR meter, you can also get one from Grainger for about $40. Like others have mentioned if I were you, I'd maybe do a simple ohm check from center conductor to shield at base and make sure its not shorted. if no short, just go ahead and connect it to the radio. It would be interesting to compare range with a basic 3 dB antenna if you have one.
 
Clean it up and put it together. Put an SWR meter in-line when done to make sure all is good.

A cheap SWR meter can be found at most truck stops for $25 or so.

An antenna is just a single conductor that is designed and tuned to a correct wavelength for that frequency…. In your case, the VHF marine band.

It does not have multiple conductors in it, just the one… the other half of the antenna system is the boat acting as the ground, or the “groundplane”.

An HF antenna system would have a Tuner box (matching unit) in-line at the base to electrically change the wavelength of the antenna.
 
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Birdman thank you for the level of detail.

1. the reason i was trying to find out more prior to install is that i have to get it from CA to Alaska with one small plane connecting flight before its gets to my boat.

I verified that the actual elements approx 1/8 inch in diameter are NOT reaching(at least 3/16 air space when screwed tight) the other side when connected. i believe that's how it always was. i took it off my 30 foot runabout 15 years ago dismantled and stored it.
the inside elements are conducting with the ferule that's why i believe the metal ferrule is actually conducting the pieces to each other.

i now got an SWR tester and will test once install.


Lets keep it simple, forget the theory behind all this, lets just define what you have, and define how to test it, without trying to describe the theory behind it. Which I believe is what the OP is interested in, antenna theory, vSWR, an antenna analyzer.... are all great, but you could read 50 books written by RF engineers over 20 years and still know next to nothing about rf theory. ;-)


I'm a licensed amateur radio operator, and know a tiny bit about antenna's. I'm no expert by any stretch, but maybe this will help.



Easiest test, plug it in, and try it! "Most" (not ALL) modern VHF radio's will protect themselves from a bad antenna. They will shutdown or reduce output power significantly if they sense a bad or no antenna connected. So worse case, it won't work, or won't work very good. Throw away and go buy a new antenna. Best case, it works great... Plug it in, tune to a known working WX radio station in your area, if you hear nothing, the antenna is not working, do not transmit on it. If you do hear WX, great, but it still does not mean the antenna is good, but it's a good start. (sometimes wx stations are so strong depending on where you are, you can receive them with a broken or no antenna!). Now tune to a local channel people use, like 68. NOT 16 which is for emergencies/CG. Ask for a radio check. If you know somebody else within 5 or 10 miles on the water, call them via phone ans ask to test it with you on ch 68 (or other ch). That way you know you not just being ignored. Some people hate answering "radio checks", mainly because many people do them all day long and on the wrong channels (like 16!).



A more robust test:

Looking at the picture of the antenna ends that screw together, you have an inner element (the actual part of the antenna that does the radiating), and an outer shield or dielectric (the fiberglass). The metal and threads used to screw the ends together, is really not part of the "radiating antenna", just the inner element is (the copper part). And the fiberglass is just a protective cover.


The first thing you need to do is clean off those ends, get all that grease and dirt off them, you want them spotless (you can add some dielectric protective grease later). Then, with the antenna separated, and NOT connected to the feed-line (coax cable), test it with a simple electric voltage meter to ensure it is not shorted out. To do this, put the meter on the continuity setting, make sure it works buy touching the two meter leads together, most meters will beep when touched together to indicate continuity (meaning, voltage can flow between them). Now hold one of the leads of the meter to the center element (copper part) of the antenna, being careful to not let that lead touch the outer part of the antenna (metal part with threads on it). Around the outside of that inner copper element you will see a small blackish area (grease), that is the area keeping the element from touching any other metal (the part with the threads) which would short out the antenna. Now take the 2nd lead from the meter, and touch it to the outer metal part with the threads, being careful not to touch the inner copper element, or the 1st lead your still holding. You should NOT hear a beep from the meter. In other words, there should not be continuity between the outer part of the antenna connectors, and the inner copper element. If the meter beeps, the antenna is shorted and likely garbage. Do this test on EACH section of the antenna (3 pieces I think you said?).



Next, you can get yourself a marine VHF swr/wattage meter to test if the antenna is ok, they cost about $100 at west marine, Shakespeare makes a simple easy to use one. Connect it inline between the radio and the antenna, and follow it's simple directions to test the swr of the antenna (as noted ideally it will be 1:1, but definitely should be less than 2:1). If it reads 2.5:1, or 3:1, or even 5:1 then something is wrong (either the feed-line or antenna is bad most likely).


In any case, TAKE THE PENNY's out, and do not put anything else in there. And CLEAN those connection points out first, wipe with a rag, then spray crc or wd40 on it, wipe clean.


Hope that helps...
 
Shakespeare gets over $650 for the 3 piece v antenna. Can see why one would spend some time cleaning up the connections.
With the money saved, u can buy a low end antenna analyzer[emoji106] and not have to guess.

yes 20 years ago it was $700
 
thank you for the suggestions

i ended up getting this one..

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01D86IKIQ?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details



Here are a few options to purchase an SWR meter. If there is anything wrong with the "antenna system" (=feedline+antenna) an SWR meter can help isolate the issue.

Option 1:

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/shakespeare--swr-watts-out-rx-sensitivity-meter--6886915

Option 2:
https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-005636

Option 3:
https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-010620

There are many others on the market among Ham Radio goods.
Check eBay! Radio Shack used to make one just like those shown above for $50 new!

While option 2 and 3 are shown to be for the 144-148 mhz 2-Meter band, that is close enough to the Marine VHF band to be accurate for marine VHF needs, and save a little money.

The theoretical ideal SWR is 1:1... anything under 1.5:1 is considered good-acceptable. As others have pointed out, most modern radios will protect themselves when the antenna mismatch is significantly out of whack like 3:1 or worse.
 
This is not a valid test for all antennas. For some (but not all) of the Shakespeare VHF antennas, they come with a warning that they'll read shorted on a DC continuity test. So a meter reading a short doesn't inherently mean the antenna is bad.

yes got a new 6db Shakespeare last month and saw the warning.

i just did a continuity test between the center elements and the ferrule itself definitely show continuity and it looks like there is solder between the element and the ferrule.
 
the antenna is commander technologies 21 foot 10DB VHF. i don't think they make it anymore.
 
Interesting re boat locations. I have similar. Sailboat in Ketchikan and trawler in Loreto/Mazatlan.
 
Interesting re boat locations. I have similar. Sailboat in Ketchikan and trawler in Loreto/Mazatlan.

so cal vs homer is about same distance is your two locations
 
This is not a valid test for all antennas. For some (but not all) of the Shakespeare VHF antennas, they come with a warning that they'll read shorted on a DC continuity test. So a meter reading a short doesn't inherently mean the antenna is bad.


Oh yes, I do recall that!! Thanks for bringing that up. Another reason I'm not a big fan of Shakey antenna's. ;)
 

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