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Old 06-20-2020, 08:10 PM   #1
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Solder butts

Greetings,
There was a discussion about these things a while back. I've watched several of "BigClive's" videos and he seems to be quite objective and knowledgeable.



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Old 06-20-2020, 10:41 PM   #2
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I wouldn't want to trust my life to that connection. Without flux it is going to be difficult to get decent flow and connection to the copper. And I would think with a wire with any oxidation it would be very poor.
It's hard to beat a traditional crimp and marine grade lined heatshrink.
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Old 06-21-2020, 01:52 AM   #3
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Wifey B: H... no, no one is going to solder my butt.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:14 AM   #4
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Wifey B: H... no, no one is going to solder my butt.
I knew this thread would go down hill fast!
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Old 06-21-2020, 05:32 AM   #5
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Greetings,
There was a discussion about these things a while back. I've watched several of "BigClive's" videos and he seems to be quite objective and knowledgeable.



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Objective? Knowledgeable?
No science... strength or resistance across joint?
No real comparison to crimp other than a very general comment he thought it was as good as a crimp?
How much current would it take to undo that low temp solder?
I would not give a passing grade to that as an acceptable solder joint! Even for a HS shop class!

I'll carry my mechanical crimps and think I'd use a pair of pliers in a pinch vs those. I have more crimpers than heat guns and dont usually carry my heat gun just in case!

So bottom line I agree with the no solder on my butts
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Old 06-21-2020, 06:00 AM   #6
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So we're back to the original question of whether soder joints are a failure point in vibration environments as it makes the wire likely to fail next to the joint. It seems that this hasn't changed. Wondering if his next video will be on the use of wire nuts with stranded wire in vibration environments.

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Old 06-21-2020, 07:21 AM   #7
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ABYC ......I believe says that a splice cant be solder only...if these are adhesive....does that meet the reqirement?

I could say yes but if its heat activated and the reason to not use solder only joints is because of heat failure...then I would say it doesnt meet the spirit.

As far as soldered joints....once that wire terminates at an appliance or nav unit or radio....how many here thing there are no solder joints inside the box?

Heck my inverter came with a major set broken right out of the factory box....had I not caught it early, who know what could have happened.

While I like the ABYC for trying to make boating safer...there are so many other ways to sink your boat or catch it on fire rather than adhesive soldered butt connectors.
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Old 06-21-2020, 07:58 AM   #8
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As far as soldered joints....once that wire terminates at an appliance or nav unit or radio....how many here thing there are no solder joints inside the box?
I think the major difference here is that the solder joints in most marine appliances and electronics have the wire secured to eliminate the vibration that fatigues the wire next to the solder joint. The standard for securing wire in cable runs would have to be much closer to eliminate fatigue in soldered connections.

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Old 06-21-2020, 08:06 AM   #9
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I bought a kit of those thinking they could be handy in certain circumstances but after several very controlled tests found they were junk. Under absolutely perfect conditions they were very hard to get to flow and shrink properly. Once attached they proved to be very weak to pull testing. I threw the kit away. I’ll stick with the proven reliable.

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Old 06-21-2020, 08:21 AM   #10
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I think the major difference here is that the solder joints in most marine appliances and electronics have the wire secured to eliminate the vibration that fatigues the wire next to the solder joint. The standard for securing wire in cable runs would have to be much closer to eliminate fatigue in soldered connections.

Ted
OK, but the rule is absolute if I remember correctly....doesnt talk about fastening....just says "not sole means".

One can fasten on either side of a butt....and the ones in question with adhesive in stiff plastic are pretty secur.e unless you manage to wick solder way up the wire.

Like everything on a boat, if its junk....sure dont use it ....but if it meets the requirements and spirit of ABYC......
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Old 06-21-2020, 09:14 AM   #11
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Greetings,
Mr. B. As I said, I've watched several of his videos and I stand by my comment. Based on this ONE video, I can see how you may doubt me. I wouldn't use these things but posted simply to provide more information.
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Old 06-21-2020, 09:50 AM   #12
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Even without ABYC weighing in Practical Sailor did a test of these things compared to the standard crimps overlaid with heat shrink tubing, adhesive lined. They concluded the joint was inconsistent connector to connector and thus not reliable.

I suspect ANY hint of oxidation of the wire will interfere with a proper solder connection. I've seen that to many times to play with these things. Unless you can absolutely guarantee that the wire itself, ALL STRANDS, is absolutely shiny, bright , clean there is a chance, a good chance that the joint will be questionable.

Like someone else pointed out that they carry crimpers, I do too, and I carry a heat gun but unless I have a power source it is of little use. Crimpers don't care and a flame, don't like that either, will shrink the heat shrink without burning the tubing with some care. I'll guess that the flame will burn the heat shrink before a reliable solder joint is achieved.

My butane solder iron will shrink the tubing after the crimp with its shroud.

To me there are too many negatives to take a chance on a squiffy connection when I know I can do better more reliably.
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Old 06-21-2020, 11:33 AM   #13
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These have been discussed several times before. I would not use them.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:15 PM   #14
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It's hard to beat a traditional crimp and marine grade lined heatshrink.
Absolutely!
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:46 PM   #15
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OK, but the rule is absolute if I remember correctly....doesnt talk about fastening....just says "not sole means".

One can fasten on either side of a butt....and the ones in question with adhesive in stiff plastic are pretty secur.e unless you manage to wick solder way up the wire.

Like everything on a boat, if its junk....sure dont use it ....but if it meets the requirements and spirit of ABYC......
I don't know for sure but doubt very much whether the adhesive shrink would count as another means of attachment. If so why not elec tape? But then again who would do a solder joint and not put shrink or tape around it? So if that a way around ABYC (which I doubt) then solder would be ok as long as not left bare?

My feeling is why use an inferior product when a good crimp is pretty EZ and cheap.
In an emergency if I didnt have a crimp tool I'd use wire nuts and re do it properly when back in port or
One could always use pliers on a crimp in an emergency.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:56 PM   #16
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Was taught many years ago to ALWAYS make a good solid mechanical joint first and THEN solder!
Be it a crimp, or twisting wires together.
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Old 06-21-2020, 01:37 PM   #17
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I don't know for sure but doubt very much whether the adhesive shrink would count as another means of attachment. If so why not elec tape? But then again who would do a solder joint and not put shrink or tape around it? So if that a way around ABYC (which I doubt) then solder would be ok as long as not left bare?

My feeling is why use an inferior product when a good crimp is pretty EZ and cheap.
In an emergency if I didnt have a crimp tool I'd use wire nuts and re do it properly when back in port or
One could always use pliers on a crimp in an emergency.

Here is the pertinent statement from the only ABYC standards copy I have...I believe there is an up to date one but I don't think this paragraph changed.


"11.14.5.7 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor."


I don't know exactly what it means by "mechanical connection" ....I am guessing that if it cannot withstand the pull test, then it fails. So I don't know if tape is unsuitable or it just fails the pull test unless you use the whole roll...


I agree much of the time the simple marine/adhesive crimp is the easiest and most likely the most reliable if done correctly.


I am just waiting for something to come along that is just as or even easier/better...so people trying these things out and keeping a eye on them on non critical items I see as a plus to our interests...not necessarily for them if they have to redo the connection, but to have reviews outside of manufacturer ads or other organizations that might have an agenda or singular mindset.
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