solar or generator?

[GoneDiving]

Because many of the folks removing generators are making a decision not to spend the money on a new generator, so they are searching for alternatives.

Fifteen grand for a new generator makes folks think.

Thank goodness technology exists today to allow those alternatives, and it is only going to get better as time goes on.

I'm in this group. Replacing old, open frame generators with new silenced units is serious $$$s. That buys a mountain of panels and lithium cells to give maintenance free, silent power. Add a baby Chonda for disaster recovery and backup and it's smiles all round.

 

[socalrider]

Because many of the folks removing generators are making a decision not to spend the money on a new generator, so they are searching for alternatives.

Fifteen grand for a new generator makes folks think.

Thank goodness technology exists today to allow those alternatives, and it is only going to get better as time goes on.

Yeah, this is the exciting part.

Right now marine-grade LFP is selling for $1000/kWh, whereas automotive-grade LFP is closer to $100/kWh - the spread will not continue forever. Li-Ion cell prices have dropped 80% in the last 5 years. Solar is not quite as dramatic but similar.

You don't have to have much of an imagination to see where this is going - if you look at e-bikes, scooters, and the million other products which are proliferating because of cheap powerful and safe Li-Ion batteries, it's just a matter of time before you can get, say, a safe marine-grade 100kWh LFP battery pack that nestles into your bilge for about the same price as a 5-10kW generator. At that point it'll make sense to have very powerful alternators (48V or higher) and of course as much solar as you can manage.

With that kind of electrical power on board, induction cooking, electric water heating, even heat pump HVAC start to make a lot of sense, and you're experiencing *increased* comfort and convenience relative to the status quo rather than making sacrifices.

For some people (very low insolation, very long periods at anchor, extreme resistance to change ) a generator will still make sense but I think it's gonna be less and less as things progress. And yes, i know we're not there yet for many/most applications...

 

[ksanders]

Yeah, this is the exciting part.

Right now marine-grade LFP is selling for $1000/kWh, whereas automotive-grade LFP is closer to $100/kWh - the spread will not continue forever. Li-Ion cell prices have dropped 80% in the last 5 years. Solar is not quite as dramatic but similar.

You don't have to have much of an imagination to see where this is going - if you look at e-bikes, scooters, and the million other products which are proliferating because of cheap powerful and safe Li-Ion batteries, it's just a matter of time before you can get, say, a safe marine-grade 100kWh LFP battery pack that nestles into your bilge for about the same price as a 5-10kW generator. At that point it'll make sense to have very powerful alternators (48V or higher) and of course as much solar as you can manage.

With that kind of electrical power on board, induction cooking, electric water heating, even heat pump HVAC start to make a lot of sense, and you're experiencing *increased* comfort and convenience relative to the status quo rather than making sacrifices.

For some people (very low insolation, very long periods at anchor, extreme resistance to change ) a generator will still make sense but I think it's gonna be less and less as things progress. And yes, i know we're not there yet for many/most applications...

There is another aspect that drives generator use.

That is the unavoidable power out must equal power replaced equation.

Massive storage will accomplish nothing unless you can replace the energy consumed.

Great example here as I am a "stay aboard" my approx 50' boat.

Today I am doing laundry. Three loads from my little splendi washer. That equates to a few hours of watermaker use at around 1000 watts per hour. It also equates to electrical use for my washer, and for the hot water heater.

Plus there is the approx 30 + amps at 12 volts that my boat draws all the time, and yes I have LED lights.

Storage will never solve that problem, only generation will. Yes if your cruising style has daily engine runs for several hours you can make up the energy used that way. But... for many cruising is not several hours a day.

Yes if I had a football field size solar array then thast would do the trick, but that is not practical either.

So... we need other forms of generation. Right now that is reciprocating engine driven. As technology improves that generation might change in it's type, but today is today and the technology today requires generators for many boats.

Nobodylikes to lay out the money fr a new generator, I understand that. I cringed at the price for my new Northern Lights generator.

But that was a decade ago, and I have long forgotten the cost, yet I use the thing every day away from port.

 

[socalrider]

There is another aspect that drives generator use.

That is the unavoidable power out must equal power replaced equation.

Massive storage will accomplish nothing unless you can replace the energy consumed.

Great example here as I am a "stay aboard" my approx 50' boat.

Today I am doing laundry. Three loads from my little splendi washer. That equates to a few hours of watermaker use at around 1000 watts per hour. It also equates to electrical use for my washer, and for the hot water heater.

Plus there is the approx 30 + amps at 12 volts that my boat draws all the time, and yes I have LED lights.

Storage will never solve that problem, only generation will. Yes if your cruising style has daily engine runs for several hours you can make up the energy used that way. But... for many cruising is not several hours a day.

Yes if I had a football field size solar array then thast would do the trick, but that is not practical either.

So... we need other forms of generation. Right now that is reciprocating engine driven. As technology improves that generation might change in it's type, but today is today and the technology today requires generators for many boats.

Nobodylikes to lay out the money fr a new generator, I understand that. I cringed at the price for my new Northern Lights generator.

But that was a decade ago, and I have long forgotten the cost, yet I use the thing every day away from port.

We're on the same page - lots of storage just allows you to average your energy budget over a longer period (many days or even weeks in the case of my hypothetical 100kWh LFP pack). You'll still have to put that 100kWh +RTE losses back in the pack over that same period - the longer the period the more reliable solar output will be. But you've still gotta balance the equation & if you can't fit enough solar you'll need something else if you're not regularly running your mains.

Realistically, that something else is going to be a diesel recip for a long time yet.

That said, I'd wager that my hypothetical 100kWh pack plus shore power, good alternators, and a modest solar array would more than meet the requirements of 95+% of cruisers out there.

 

[GoneDiving]

.

You don't have to have much of an imagination to see where this is going - if you look at e-bikes, scooters, and the million other products which are proliferating because of cheap powerful and safe Li-Ion batteries, it's just a matter of time before you can get, say, a safe marine-grade 100kWh LFP battery pack that nestles into your bilge for about the same price as a 5-10kW generator. At that point it'll make sense to have very powerful alternators (48V or higher) and of course as much solar as you can manage.

We're there now: $8000 for 43kwh of batteries, $2000 for 10kw of inverters, $2000 for 5000w of solar. 300A 54v alternators available for $1600.

https://app.alibaba.com/dynamiclink...share_detail&ck=share_detail&shareScene=buyer

And those are Australian pesos. US prices would be half that and, as you say, it's only getting better. These are all generic consumer grade items now

 

[GoneDiving]

Realistically, that something else is going to be a diesel recip for a long time yet.

Everyone has their own tastes and priorities and that's fine. However, as solar/battery packages become more attractive, more and more people are including roof area in their priority list. For me, solar capacity was high on the list when I selected a vessel.

 

[OldDan1943]

x

Everyone has their own tastes and priorities and that's fine. However, as solar/battery packages become more attractive, more and more people are including roof area in their priority list. For me, solar capacity was high on the list when I selected a vessel.

Gotta have the landscape to mount the solar panels and the space for the batteries too.
In my case, 3X4D house batteries and space on the pilot house roof for 2X130watt solar panels. That is about the same as a trickle charger. Seems to work for me. It is designed to charge the batteries to keep the 12vt fridge alive and run the bilge pumps alive.

 

[GoneDiving]

Gotta have the landscape to mount the solar panels and the space for the batteries too.

True. That's why I mentioned that it's becoming one of the selection criteria for many. It's priority over the many others is an individual decision but for me it was pretty high on the list.

Don't forget that removing or downsizing Gensets can release a lot of space. In my case the nett result was positive.

 

[socalrider]

Don't forget that removing or downsizing Gensets can release a lot of space. In my case the nett result was positive.

Absolutely. My genset made my engine room very tight before I removed it. Batteries and solar can be installed out of the way as they don't need the kind of service access a genset requires.

 

[OldDan1943]

True. That's why I mentioned that it's becoming one of the selection criteria for many. It's priority over the many others is an individual decision but for me it was pretty high on the list.

Don't forget that removing or downsizing Gensets can release a lot of space. In my case the nett result was positive.

If I removed my 5KW generator, my case, MAYBE 2 more 4D batteries.

 

[GoneDiving]

Absolutely. My genset made my engine room very tight before I removed it. Batteries and solar can be installed out of the way as they don't need the kind of service access a genset requires.

Also a little difficult to divide a Genset in halves and mount one under the sofa and the other under a bed when space is at a premium. ?

 

[Simi 60]

We're there now: $8000 for 43kwh of batteries, $2000 for 10kw of inverters, $2000 for 5000w of solar. 300A 54v alternators available for $1600.

https://app.alibaba.com/dynamiclink...share_detail&ck=share_detail&shareScene=buyer

And those are Australian pesos. US prices would be half that and, as you say, it's only getting better. These are all generic consumer grade items now

I would love to see what sort of inverters and alts you are using for those numbers

 

[Hippocampus]

Seems to me this thread is much like discussions of dehydrating(composting) heads.

One group saying the bugs are worked out sufficiently it’s doable, more ecologically sound ad not that restricting or inconvenient.

The other group yes all that is true but there’s definitely situations were it just doesn’t cut the mustard.

Both groups speak from experience and personal knowledge. Neither is wrong.

So very reasonable to go gensetless if
You will not go through periods of time that alt energy generation isn’t sufficient to maintain your energy budget. Usually times when you’re stationary and it’s inclement. How long a period you can tolerate depends upon where you are, what draw you can get with at a minimum, usable bank. Obviously draw in a boat depending upon a watermaker to fill the tanks, large refrigeration storage for food, electric heads, electric cooking etc. has a larger minimum draw even putting aside HVAC and entertainment.

Ultimately it breaks down to off the grid cruisers v those with easy access to external sources of electrons (plugging in when it’s inclement and you’re going to be stationary). This is true for a every bell and whistle boat or a KISS boat if it’s inhabited. The exception is the KISS boat with no AC, no need for a watermaker, and no refrigeration. But that’s camping.

Most answer the first question first. How long and how often I’m I going to be off the grid. Coastal/ocean/ regional/international doesn’t matter. Only grid/no grid matters. Even if your insurance doesn’t care how many Li batteries you stick in ( ridiculous at this point given the safety of current well constructed systems) you still need electrons to put in them. Once you answer that first question the rest follows.

Personally think at present putting in solar is a no brainer. Do it. Put in a genset if you expect to be off grid for a significant length of time.

 

[GoneDiving]

I would love to see what sort of inverters and alts you are using for those numbers

The alternators are in the link. Apologies it was USD 1600 not AUD for 300A. 200A are ~USD 1300 ea.

The inverter chargers are MPP Solar hybrid residential units, 2x5000W single phase

 

[Simi 60]

The alternators are in the link. Apologies it was USD 1600 not AUD for 300A. 200A are ~USD 1300 ea.

The inverter chargers are MPP Solar hybrid residential units, 2x5000W single phase

The link didn't work, takes me to google play to download an app.

 

[GoneDiving]

The link didn't work, takes me to google play to download an app.

Try. https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600194034203/Truck-Alternator-Generator-48-Volt-300A.html

If that doesn't work search Alibaba.com for "300 amp alternator". The seller is Chongqing Bliss Machinery.

 

[Greatlaker221]

Northern Lights 5KW Gen Set pricing

I see pricing all over the board, the same unit from 5K to 13K. For those that don't mind sharing, how much did they pay for a NL M673 type Gen Set. How much was the Sound Enclosure?

 

[OldDan1943]

I see pricing all over the board, the same unit from 5K to 13K. For those that don't mind sharing, how much did they pay for a NL M673 type Gen Set. How much was the Sound Enclosure?

Came with the boat.

 

[Ken E.]

I see pricing all over the board, the same unit from 5K to 13K. For those that don't mind sharing, how much did they pay for a NL M673 type Gen Set. How much was the Sound Enclosure?

In 2005 I replaced an old clapped-out Onan with a 5 kw NL. The cost then was $8k, no sound shield. I'd expect the price to be at least double that now.

 

[OldDan1943]

GreatLaker, what's wrong with the current NL?

 

[Hippocampus]

Whenever boat shows come back ask dealers in your area for a deal. We got our NL from DePaul diesel near Newport Rhode Island. Excellent shop. Did a perfect install. Remain available for questions and took the time to talk us through any problems even when we where nowhere near them. Truly +1. And saved big boat bucks. Bought the NL which was shown but never off the pallet so got a great deal.

 

[mvweebles]

In 2005 I replaced an old clapped-out Onan with a 5 kw NL. The cost then was $8k, no sound shield. I'd expect the price to be at least double that now.

Last year, I purchased a new 6kw NL for a shade over $10k plus cost of should shield and install.

I also installed 800w of solar, about 200A of Balmar alternator output, and 630 AH LiFePO4 batteries. I was close to not installing the genny, but decided to add it for A/C just in case as I will be in tropical climates. I a collet, less humid climate, I would not have bothered with genny, even with a watermaker. But I do not have a W/D aboard, our cruising style is a bit more old school.

Peter

Peter

 

[FF]

"Also a little difficult to divide a Genset in halves and mount one under the sofa and the other under a bed when space is at a premium. ��"

Not so, a hyd gen head can be located most anywhere, tho some cooling air is required.

The question is what operating profile does the vessel require.

Since the main engine could also be the source for hyd power, a cruising generator could also be powered with the advantage of not being required to operate at some specific speed while underway.

It is also possible to use a gov to only require the genset to create just enough RPM for the required load, not have to churn at 1800 to run a reefer or other light load.

 

[GoneDiving]

Since the main engine could also be the source for hyd power, a cruising generator could also be powered with the advantage of not being required to operate at some specific speed while underway.

It is also possible to use a gov to only require the genset to create just enough RPM for the required load, not have to churn at 1800 to run a reefer or other light load.

True: the OP could go from mains to pump to speed control to remote lines to hyd motor to genset to load. Don't forget to size appropriately for both run and start inrush loads.

Or he could have panels charge a battery and switch on an inverter. ??

PS my comment about splitting a genset was tongue in cheek, meant to highlight the ease of having multiple smaller battery packs stored in different locations vs a single large motor/generator combination

Cheers

 

[CharlieO.]

O.P. Here
After reading all the responses I think I would opt to build a solar outfit first since we would be seasonal to start out. Thanks for all the great insight and thoughts.

 

[socalrider]

O.P. Here
After reading all the responses I think I would opt to build a solar outfit first since we would be seasonal to start out. Thanks for all the great insight and thoughts.

Keep us posted! I don't know if you mentioned your alternator setup but if you're going to be heavily relying on PV with no generator, it's good to have at least one good externally regulated alternator that can crank >100A into your battery bank whenever you move the boat or at anchor in a pinch if you have lots of cloudy days in a row and haven't moved.

 

[CharlieO.]

Keep us posted! I don't know if you mentioned your alternator setup but if you're going to be heavily relying on PV with no generator, it's good to have at least one good externally regulated alternator that can crank >100A into your battery bank whenever you move the boat or at anchor in a pinch if you have lots of cloudy days in a row and haven't moved.

Yes, High output alternator for sure.

Still boat shopping, our short list has a couple without generators still.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

The exception is the KISS boat with no AC, no need for a watermaker, and no refrigeration. But that’s camping.

No, that's called boating. I agree that there are "two camps" in the boating world, those who want all the comforts of home and those who can make accomodations for boating. I've seen the claim here over and over that if somebody doesn't have air conditioning, they are camping. If somebody doesn't have a TV, they are camping. If they don't have a generator, they are camping. But aren't they just boating?

The word camping itself has lost its traditional meaning, having been used inaccurately for so long. The neon sign on the highway said "Camp Ground." The "camper" pulls his 43 foot RV into the paved spot next to a picnic table and plugs into the 30A service. He must be camping. Or maybe he needs to be unplugged (and run his generator) to be camping. My interpretation of camping is that it can't be done in a 43' RV. I'm not sure what it's called, but it ain't camping.

If I wanted all the comforts of home, I'd just stay home. Is actual boating so miserable such that not having counter top appliances, pressure hot water, DVD player, etc., on board is unthinkable ?

Do people now think that Joshua Slocum was the first person to singlehandedly camp around the world?

End of rant.

For now.

 

[Hippocampus]

Marco strong believer in KISS. Although we had TVs on the boat they were rarely used. Although we had AC it’s surprising in the tropics with the trades there’s little need for them if you stay outside marinas. Same with watermakers if you have just one faucet with a decent filter in its supply line.
All that said each of those devices is a total game changer when they’re called to function. If you’re a long term cruiser the need will arise. Happy wife happy life. Wouldn’t even put it on her. A week of extreme humidity, no breeze and heat, no daily shower and wash in salt rinse in fresh, limiting music and internet time just plain stinks.

 

[rslifkin]

Marco strong believer in KISS. Although we had TVs on the boat they were rarely used. Although we had AC it’s surprising in the tropics with the trades there’s little need for them if you stay outside marinas. Same with watermakers if you have just one faucet with a decent filter in its supply line.
All that said each of those devices is a total game changer when they’re called to function. If you’re a long term cruiser the need will arise. Happy wife happy life. Wouldn’t even put it on her. A week of extreme humidity, no breeze and heat, no daily shower and wash in salt rinse in fresh, limiting music and internet time just plain stinks.

Agreed. Plenty of things fall into the category of "I only need it occasionally, but when I need it, I NEED it"