Shore Power Breaker, Boat Side

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I go to bat on behalf of customers a few times per year. It is usually over a misinterpretation of the safety standards. You just need to get to the marine underwriting department. Sometimes they could care less what the standards say sometimes they can actually see the misinterpretation or incorrect finding.

A compass bubble, now that a new one on me....:facepalm:
I too have argued and won a few for me and friends...but not everyone has the same credentials other than "experienced boater".....

The bubble one I did fix...but not till I got back home.....:D
 
Excellent tests, and certainly the easiest to do.

The down side of test #1 is that it only detects fault current that is returning via some path OTHER than the ground wire in your shore power cable. If the fault current is going back through your own ground system, which is what it's supposed to do, the current in the cable will still sum up to 0.0A. i.e. a false negative.

It's a bit harder to do, but a more thorough test can be done if you can gain access to the individual conductors for your shore power. You could make a short test cable and cut back the cable jacket to expose the wires, or you could access them from inside the boat, perhaps by the power inlet or breaker (if you have one).

Here are the tests, using the same clamp meter described by CMS:

- For 120V (30 or 50A) service, clamp around the line (black) and neutral (white) wires together. Current should be 0.0A. If not, you have a fault current.

- For 250V service, clamp around Line 1 (black), line 2 (red), and neutral (white) together. Current should be 0.0A. If not, you have a fault current.

If the first test does not read 0.0A, then clamp around just the green ground wire. If it's zero, then your fault current is returning via some path other than your ground, most likely via your thruhull bonding system. If you measure any current, then at least some of the fault current is returning through your shore grounding system. Note that fault current can be returning through both paths, so whatever you don't measure in your ground wire is going back through an alternate path.
Making up a line splitter like this out of an old shore power cable would be a great tool to have for troubleshooting power issues in a marina.

Wish I didn't chuck that end when I converted to a smart plug. D'oh!
 
I suspect that if surveyors and insurance companies were typically as strict as is being portrayed in this thread, there would be very few insured boats out there.


My personal experience is that my (well respected in the area and in business for years) surveyor flagged only a single non-working GFCI receptacle and expired flares. That was my pre-purchase survey.


My insurance company did not, and has not asked for a survey.
 
The unknowing buyers spend big bucks when they shouldn't have to for a variety of reasons.

The questionable things get fixed...the insurance company giggles and the boat is insured.

Not rocket science.....you want insurance...you either beat them up at their own game or let them win.....shame it has to be all or nothing sometimes.
 
Excellent tests, and certainly the easiest to do.

The down side of test #1 is that it only detects fault current that is returning via some path OTHER than the ground wire in your shore power cable. If the fault current is going back through your own ground system, which is what it's supposed to do, the current in the cable will still sum up to 0.0A. i.e. a false negative.

It's a bit harder to do, but a more thorough test can be done if you can gain access to the individual conductors for your shore power. You could make a short test cable and cut back the cable jacket to expose the wires, or you could access them from inside the boat, perhaps by the power inlet or breaker (if you have one).


Absolutely but most boat owners barely own a clamp meter let alone a test cable for shore power systems with the individual conductors accessible. It's just a start. You'd be shocked at how many cordsets I clamp and find leakage....

Anyone wanna go for a swim..:D:facepalm::facepalm:

152761186.jpg
 
Absolutely but most boat owners barely own a clamp meter let alone a test cable for shore power systems with the individual conductors accessible. It's just a start. You'd be shocked at how many cordsets I clamp and find leakage....

Anyone wanna go for a swim..:D:facepalm::facepalm:

152761186.jpg

Yikes. I can feel the tingle over here.
 
I'm not sure I'm following your point, but an ELCI breaker MUST connect to both the line and neutral for the circuit that it's protecting. Otherwise it can't compare the current in each to detect a fault.

I am just interested that you can buy a 30 ma equipment ground protection breaker for a typical panel. Had not seen them at all. I don't think this will work for boat since neither single or dual pole are designed to disconnect the neutral wire.
 

What is the difference between a CAFI and an AFI circuit breaker?
I found out more general info, that AFCI breakers do trip with this.

Square D/Schneider Electric CAFI Combination Arc-Fault Circuit Breakers are designed to provide protection against overloads, short circuits, parallel arcs (H-N), and series arcs (H-H same phase), and will trip on current to ground in the range of 30-50 mA or higher.
So they do offer equipment ground fault protection.

I bought two single pole AFCI-GFCI combo breakers QO120DF for my boat's Square-D panel. Plan to use one for the Cruisair heat pump, other for all the outlet circuits, instead of the Hubbell GFCI outlet.
 
I also think, there should be active power denial if you plug into a reversed polarity situation at the dock.
A system just with little red lights, leaves the responsibility entirely on the person to monitor for the condition. The boat AC system should check for proper polarity when you plug in, and actively deny power and show with the indicator lamp when it detects reversed polarity. Such a system would free up the requirement of disconnecting both poles in a breaker which still leaves it up to you to disconnect from the reversed polarity condition and the dual pole setup still requires human to make the right choices.
 
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I also think, there should be active power denial if you plug into a reversed polarity situation at the dock.
A system just with little red lights, leaves the responsibility entirely on the person to monitor for the condition. The boat AC system should check for proper polarity when you plug in, and actively deny power and show with the indicator lamp when it detects reversed polarity. Such a system would free up the requirement of disconnecting both poles in a breaker which still leaves it up to you to disconnect from the reversed polarity condition and the dual pole setup still requires human to make the right choices.

These breakers are available... Course if your builder wired the boat with land-grade equipment/panels you'll need to modify the system or add a surface mount box.......

30A Main AC Breaker with Reverse Polarity Trip Circuit
 
These breakers are available... Course if your builder wired the boat with land-grade equipment/panels you'll need to modify the system or add a surface mount box.......

30A Main AC Breaker with Reverse Polarity Trip Circuit

Yes, I assume they did since boat was made in 1970.
That is nice they have a reverse polarity sensing breaker.
I assume the Blue Sea ELCI does not trip on reverse polarity?

And Square-D warrants all their breakers for life regardless of proof of ownership-reciept.
I had a GFCI 20 amp old style with big yellow button breaker go bad. Called them and they sent me a new style one. They told me high voltage surges would ruin the older type GFCI breaker. All these sophisticated breaker designs are steadily improving.

On an electric forum, a poster was having trouble with GE AFCI nuisance tripping from RF energy and plasma TV while several posters said the Square-D had not given them any troubles. I also read that in one city, Square-D AFCI breakers were a tripping nightmare and their engineers found out it was due to electric noise coming in from the utility, which they had to redesign for. The NEC 2014 pretty much mandates the use of combo AFCI and GFCI breakers everywhere.
 
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These breakers are available... Course if your builder wired the boat with land-grade equipment/panels you'll need to modify the system or add a surface mount box.......

30A Main AC Breaker with Reverse Polarity Trip Circuit

Hi, learning about this item, see this mention of P/N 281-001, does that come with the main breaker? If not, got a link to the item?
Good price at Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Paneltronics-Breaker-Amps-Reverse-Polarity/dp/B000TRDJK2

From Paneltronics catalog page 28
https://www.paneltronics.com/images/paneltronics_catalog.pdf
Shore Main Circuit Breakers with Reverse Polarity Trip Coil
• Shore main AC circuit breaker for Paneltronics electrical distribution panels
120VAC 60 Hz (simultaneously breaks both hot and neutral legs)
220VAC 50 Hz (simultaneously breaks both live and neutal legs)
Reverse Polarity Protector 65VAC trip coil (Surge arrestor P/N 281-001 required) (ABYC E-11.6.3.3.1)
 
My belated thanks to all of the respondents. Life got in the way of actively pursuing this matter. I've read the entire thread once for general sense - starting back through it for meat and potatoes info. I continue to be amazed at the breadth of info available on TF. And the willingness of TFers to take the time to assist.
 

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