Rudder pos.+autopilot+power steering?

[BigTime]

I just read this tread from start to finish. Six months of discussion and more confusion now than when it started.
Please hire a recommended profession in your area .

 

[LeoKa]

I just read this tread from start to finish. Six months of discussion and more confusion now than when it started.
Please hire a recommended profession in your area .

Yes, I am trying to locate one.
Anyone here from Port Orchard, WA knows someone with this expertise?

Confusion it is, very much so. I am learning, though.

 

[FF]

IF there are larger fish boats in your area ,(most use lots of hyd) simply ask the yard that services them which hyd shops service the boats.

Go to the hyd shop and ask who the best trouble shooter in the area is.In person is better than by phone.

Do the hyd schematic in advance , to save him the task, and you should get reasonable advice.

 

[Seevee]

One would think that at idle speed the rudder should turn easily by hand. I'd bet that something is binding.

Boatsteer.com is a good one to call, unfortunately they are about as far from you in the US as they can be, S. FL.

 

[sunchaser]

Leo
Three suggestions for help. One is Emerald Harbor at Elliot Bay. Secondly Harris Electric in Seattle near Ballard locks. They deal with all manner of electronics and control systems for both recreational and commercial vessels.Third, Hatton Marine.

 

[LeoKa]

OK. Will try to show some pics of components.
I believe this is your engine driven power steering pump. The electric solenoid valve appears to be mounted on or near the pump. Red arrow points to solenoid valve. The solenoid valve should have 3 or 4 wires coming out of it.
View attachment 86628

I checked that solenoid today. There is nothing coming out of it. No wires. It might now be a solenoid, at all. Or, it is not connected.
There is a hose connected to the pump, where this unit sits. This hose also has a pressure gauge, which does not move.

 

[LeoKa]

Today, I have tried one of the suggestions. I have disconnected the cylinders and tried to steer, while engine running. I did not feel any difference. I don't think there is any pump pressure assisting the steering. Only the fluid moves back and forth, when I turn the large steering wheel. The belt driven pump might assist the the transmission and the bow thruster, windlass, but not the steering.
Once I find someone who knows these systems, the question will be; can I get pressure steering from my existing pump, or do I need something else?

 

[johnma]

I checked that solenoid today. There is nothing coming out of it. No wires. It might now be a solenoid, at all. Or, it is not connected.
There is a hose connected to the pump, where this unit sits. This hose also has a pressure gauge, which does not move.

Its not a solenoid valve, it is a Prince Mfg relief valve. You mention a thruster, windlass, etc. are these also all hydraulic? Just looking at your photos, I'm not sure the components shown are for steering. They might be, but you would need to trace the lines to see if they go to your helm wheel. If they do, your wheel is attached to a steering pump/valve assy (called a pump so that if your main pump fails for any reason the helm will turn the attached pump which in turn will move your cylinders.
Take some better photos of your pump and see if there are any numbers shown. Steering pumps will have built in relief valves and flow control valves. Since yours has an external relief, I highly doubt it is a steering pump. Prior to retiring I was the Eaton/Vickers/Char-Lynn distributor, warranty and service center for most of the east coast and provided steering for the Coast Guard, many Commercial fishing boats and Detroit Diesel / Allison distributors in the mid Atlantic area so I know a little about power steering systems.
The only Hydraulic supplier I'm very familiar with in the PNW is Hydraulic Repair and Design in Kent Washington. I don't know if they have outside service but if you call them they may be able to point you in the right direction.
John

 

[johnma]

I just took a look at your photos from post #1 on this thread and as I thought, the belt driven pump you showed on your later photos are not supplying hydraulic fluid to your steering system. Your helm pump/valve is only power assist as it only has two hoses plus a "fill" hose connected to it. For full power steering plus power assist you should have 4 hoses plus the fill. Pressure, tank, extend, retract. You only have extend and retract.
Your belt driven pump is supplying other components (windless, thrusters). To set this up for full hydraulic steering you would need a steering pump, plus a new helm pump/valve.
Before I would go into all of that, some questions need to be asked. First, did It ever work? If so, what changed? If it never worked, then it was designed wrong and needs to be fixed. You might be able to use your existing pump. If you do, a flow control would need to go in the feed line for steering otherwise your steering would move faster at high engine speed and slower at slow engine speed. A full schematic would need to be made showing what is being supplied now, and then you could work out how to tie in the steering. The problem with having your existing pump do everything, is that hydraulic flow takes the path of least resistance, and if you have a hydraulic windlass you might not be able to steer when using the windlass. As I said in my prior post. contact Hyd Repair and Design.
John

 

[LeoKa]

As I said in my prior post. contact Hyd Repair and Design.
John

John

I think this the best explanation so far. I will contact them next week.

Side-note:
I have not changed anything and I don't have documentation about the original intent of the hydraulic system. Lot of things have been changed on this boat since it was built. I think it was intended to the waters of Alaska, but later it become a floating condo. I want to bring it back to a seaworthy vessel. The hydraulic system is part of it.

 

[twistedtree]

You definitely need to get someone on the boat who is familiar with these systems, if for no other reason than to sort out what you have. Is it manual hydraulic steering? Power assisted hydraulic steering. What other hydraulic systems are on board and is that completely separate from the steering? What equipment on board is still operations, or intended to be operational, and what has been abandoned over the years and is nothing but a Red Herring in this discussion.


Here's what I do know:


- I only know of one boat under 80' that has power assisted steering. All others a manual hydraulic steering. What I mean my "manual hydraulic steering" is that there is a pump at the steering wheel that is turned by you moving the wheel (the manual part). That pump movement then forces oil through lines to the steering rams/cylinders to turn the rudder. I would be very surprised if this isn't what you have. What I mean by "power assisted steering" is a fancier and more complex system with an engine driven pump (could be main engine, or electric motor) that does the work, and the steering wheel controls it and typically also provides some backup. This is like the power steering on a car. You can turn the wheel with a finger as long as the power assist is working. But if it fails, the steering is super heavy to turn, even heavier than manual steering.


- Boat steering on larger boats isn't finger-light, but it also isn't hard to turn. You should be able to turn it stop to stop with little trouble. You are likely to get sick of the 7 to 10 turns stop to stop long before you get sick of the effort to move the wheel. Unless you expectations are way off from what is normal boat steering effort, something is broken in your steering.


- Assuming something is broken with your current system, the solution is to find an fix the problem, not replace the system with power assisted steering.


- You have already narrowed down the problem by disconnected the rudder from the steering rams and verifying that you can move the rudder by hand and that the steering effort is still high. Unless there is a big judgement error if your perception of how each component should feel, the problem is in the hydraulic steering mechanism. Now you just need to figure out if it's cylinders (rams) that are binding up, if the pump is binding up, or if there are valves not working correctly.


To me, the next test would be to open the air bleed valves, using hoses to direct to fluid if needed, and see how the wheel feels. If it's still heavy, then the problem is in the helm pump. If it's now easy to turn, then the problem is in the rams/cylinders.

 

[LeoKa]

To me, the next test would be to open the air bleed valves, using hoses to direct to fluid if needed, and see how the wheel feels. If it's still heavy, then the problem is in the helm pump. If it's now easy to turn, then the problem is in the rams/cylinders.

Now, I just need to find those valves.... hahaha
Thank you again for the directions.

As of the feel, yes, maybe I am not used to this stiff steering. However, I need an easier steering option. The manual setup is good for emergencies, as you said. I do need easier maneuvering when I am docking. I am single hand skipper.

 

[johnma]

Looking at your photos again in post 1, I'm not sure your cylinders are mounted correctly. Take a look at the cylinder base (opposite of the rod). The clevis of the cylinder should allow the cylinder to swing side to side as opposed to up and down when the rod end is not attached. If the are set up to swing up and down, your cylinders are fighting the rudder post as you steer. If this is the issue it's an easy fix. You would need to unbolt the base end mounting plate and rotate it 90 degrees then bolt it back in place. Then loosen lock nut on the rod end and rotate the rod clevis so it lines up. you would need to add elbows to your ports so your hoses could connect. or if you are feeling in a mechanical mood you could take the cylinder apart and rotate the back end. Some of these cylinders have 2 ports on the base 90 degrees from each other so you can hook the hoses up easier.
John

 

[LeoKa]

Looking at your photos again in post 1, I'm not sure your cylinders are mounted correctly.
John

Honestly, I read your post 3 times now and I am still not clear on it. hahahaha
It is not fault of course.
I am going down to the ER and take look. Maybe take some photos, too.

 

[LeoKa]

I took some photos.

 

[LeoKa]

I found solenoids behind the the anchor chain holder. One goes forward to the windlass. The other is going up to the bow thruster, I guess. The conclusion is; there is no solenoid for the steering. At least, I could not find it yet.

 

[Arun52]

"Here's what I do know:"
"I only know of one boat under 80' that has power assisted steering. All others a manual hydraulic steering."

There are many boats under 80' that have engine driven pumps for steering. Here is mine for one. A pump on each engine in case of having to run on one engine.

 

[LeoKa]

There are many boats under 80' that have engine driven pumps for steering. Here is mine for one. A pump on each engine in case of having to run on one engine.

I would certainly would love to have your power steering. My boat is heavy. All steel, 37T with full tanks. Since I don't have a walk around deck, I had run back and forth a lot today, while I was docking. Steering, which requires two arms to turn, made a bit more challenging.

 

[johnma]

Honestly, I read your post 3 times now and I am still not clear on it. hahahaha
It is not fault of course.
I am going down to the ER and take look. Maybe take some photos, too.

Ok, these photos are better. The cylinders are installed correctly.
John

 

[LeoKa]

I tried to find this guys today, but the search cannot find them. There is a company in Puyallap and Bellingham. Nothing in Kent.

 

[johnma]

I tried to find this guys today, but the search cannot find them. There is a company in Puyallap and Bellingham. Nothing in Kent.

Ok, its Puyallap. Kent must be their mailing address, or its possi le they moved.
John

 

[sunchaser]

Leo
In post #65 I provided the names of 3 Seattle boat pro companies that are worth checking out. For the good ones, this is an incredibly busy time of the year though. Also, not sure that boat's weight is an issue for a standard helm pump arrangement.

What brand of helm pump do you currently have? Once the brand is known then go to their trouble shooting guide. Basically you have 4 primary target areas:

-- helm pump BO
-- cylinders failing or wrong setup
-- lines failing/aging or improper setup
-- fluid whether wrong, dirty or old

An eyes on examination by a pro would prove helpful. Like a toothache, sooner or later you've got to go to the dentist.

 

[twistedtree]

Need to get someone experienced on the boat. Frankly, it's not even clear that there is another wrong with the steering. It may just be that boat steering is heavier than the OP expected, but is perfectly normal for such a boat and system.


So far, all we have done is go in circles because we don't know what's there, we don't know what works and what doesn't, and we don't even know if performance is abnormal or not. All we know is that it's not what the OP expected, but it also doesn't sound like he has any baseline to know what to expect.


Maybe there is something broken. Maybe the OP needs to adjust expectations or spring for power steering.