Recommend marine electronics package for a Fisher 34?

[Camasonian]

Hello everyone:

I'm helping my brother with a top-to-bottom restoration of a Fisher 34 motorsailor. He is basically ripping everything out and doing a top to bottom restoration including all new wiring and electronics.

He's asking me for advice on which combo chartplotter/sonar/radar electronics package to go with on a moderate budget. The boat is in SE Alaska and will primarily be used as a liveaboard and cruiser in SE Alaska and the inside passage. I'm a little out of date as to what are the current preferred electronics packages for an older boat like this. He will probably be putting in all new gauges and controls, not just the nav electronics.

For a sense of what we are talking about, this is what the wheelhouse in a Fisher 34 looks like in terms of space

What would you guys recommend in terms of a new multifunction electronics package for a boat like this? I'm figuring something more or less in the ballpark of the Raytheon Axiom+ 9" multifunction plotter or something similar from one of the other brands.

What would you guys put on a boat like this?

 

[Comodave]

I am redoing the electronics this winter in our new to us noat. It will be a 12” Axiom+, 9” Axiom, Quantum2 radar, Realvision 3D sonar, Evolution 200 autopilot and Standard Horizon VHF. Total cost was a bit under $10K and I will install it all myself.

 

[Bugaboo]

I’m jealous of your boat ,wonderful Boat . This is what I would do auto pilot with dual function Jog lever , tablet with NAV app , handheld VHF , depth finder that’s all you need .no need to drill holes everywhere and destroy such a beautiful boat in my opinion this will be all you will ever need !!!! Unless you just want a boat that looks like the starship enterprise then buy all the toys

 

[grahamdouglass]

Fisher 34, what a gorgeous boat. I have an old Raymarine E80 package it works just fine. I have a Raymarine S100 wireless remote I hang around my neck and use that as a jog lever. I rarely touch the steering wheel. On passages its normally just monitoring the instruments and chartplotter. The axiom idea with a matching plotter sounds great. Get a wireless remote also.

 

[mvweebles]

I am redoing the electronics this winter in our new to us noat. It will be a 12” Axiom+, 9” Axiom, Quantum2 radar, Realvision 3D sonar, Evolution 200 autopilot and Standard Horizon VHF. Total cost was a bit under $10K and I will install it all myself.

This is a pretty standard setup and price point. For OPs Fisher, maybe B&G version of this. There's usually a decent price jump as MFD size increases. But 12-inch is really much more useful than 9-inch. You will have a lot of info available to display. For your setup, may also want to consider an Airmar electronic wind sensor which while pricy, gives critical sailing info to the pilot house. While that can be displayed on the MFD, having a separate 4.5" square display (I think they're around $500) dedicated to wind info would be my choice. If budget allows, would also recommend a separate display for autopilot.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

I’m jealous of your boat ,wonderful Boat . This is what I would do auto pilot with dual function Jog lever , tablet with NAV app , handheld VHF , depth finder that’s all you need. No need to drill holes everywhere and destroy such a beautiful boat in my opinion this will be all you will ever need !!!! Unless you just want a boat that looks like the starship enterprise then buy all the toys

A decent way to destroy a beautiful boat is not having radarAIS when needed.

In my opinion, a proper cruising boat (voyages of days, not hours) should be equipped with a reliable system of record that all crew aboard can operate and undersrand. Can it be done via an IPhone and Navionics? Of course. But using consumer grade hardware that is not interfaced to the boat means the nuisance factor goes up, reliability goes down. Net result is I get awakened in my off watch with simple questions.

Peter

 

[catalinajack]

I’m jealous of your boat ,wonderful Boat . This is what I would do auto pilot with dual function Jog lever , tablet with NAV app , handheld VHF , depth finder that’s all you need .no need to drill holes everywhere and destroy such a beautiful boat in my opinion this will be all you will ever need !!!! Unless you just want a boat that looks like the starship enterprise then buy all the toys

Starship Enterprise, my eye. And a hand-held VHF as the primary. Downright foolish. I guess it would be okay if one accepts a much more limited range.

 

[Bugaboo]

Starship Enterprise, my eye. And a hand-held VHF as the primary. Downright foolish. I guess it would be okay if one accepts a much more limited range.

A VHF radio is line of sight you’re rarely use it how many times have you used your VHF radio be honest almost never most of them won’t make it a half a mile it is line of site

 

[Bugaboo]

A decent way to destroy a beautiful boat is not having radarAIS when needed.

In my opinion, a proper cruising boat (voyages of days, not hours) should be equipped with a reliable system of record that all crew aboard can operate and undersrand. Can it be done via an IPhone and Navionics? Of course. But using consumer grade hardware that is not interfaced to the boat means the nuisance factor goes up, reliability goes down. Net result is I get awakened in my off watch with simple questions.

Peter

My NAV app has ais I won’t debate radar I haven’t use mine in years I could explain why but it will fall on deaf ears a good handheld VHF will have the same range as your standard VHF Care to make a wager I will

 

[mvweebles]

My NAV app has ais I won’t debate radar I haven’t use mine in years I could explain why but it will fall on deaf ears a good handheld VHF will have the same range as your standard VHF Care to make a wager I will

Bugaboo - you have an online Doppelganger! Your style and syntax reminds me of another TF contributor I haven't seen around for a couple weeks - he too was from PNW and owned a Nordic Tug 26 that he wanted to convert to dry-exhaust. As a matter of fact, both you and he posted to the same DD-671 thread and both love DDs and both despise Ford Lehmans! Quite the coincidence! What are the chances?

BTW - what NAV app are you using and how does it aquire AIS data?

As far as Handheld VHF having same range as fixed-mount, no wager needed. You're wrong. Dead wrong - don't take my word for it - read this BoatUS expert article. Fixed-mount have 5x-10x the transmit power. Antenna gain is also different due to directional stability of a powerboat - 3db for handheld vs 6db for powerboats (sailboats typically have 3db whips due to heel, but at top of mast). I usually don't care much about dumb statements or whacky opinions, but when it comes to safetey principles, ill-informed gratuitously contrarian attitudes have no place in a public forum.

If you watch this most recent episode of Project Atticus, around halfway through, he tries hailing with a handheld a bridge tender on the ICW up near North Carolina. Despite being only a mile or so from the bridge, he cannot raise the tender, so he reverts to the fixed-mount and comes in clear as can be. Happens at the next bridge too.

 

[Bugaboo]

I said in my opinion. I don’t expect the haters to agree with me don’t care if you do works great for me .oh by the way you don’t hale bridges and locks with VHF radio much anymore cell phones are used for that for the most part at least here on the Columbia river .Been across the bar more than 200 Times quit using radar years ago NAV app works so much better you do it your way I’ll do it my way spare me the lecturing

 

[Bugaboo]

We can also use instant messaging to get a hold of the Coast Guard VHF radio OK

 

[mvweebles]

We can also use instant messaging to get a hold of the Coast Guard VHF radio OK

USCG explicitely advises against using a cell phone as a replacement for VHF. See this Navcen/USCG notice to mariners for further guidance and explanation.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/doc/cel...portable,an additional means of communication.

Peter

 

[Bugaboo]

USCG explicitely advises against using a cell phone as a replacement for VHF. See this Navcen/USCG notice to mariners for further guidance and explanation.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/doc/cel...portable,an additional means of communication.

Peter

I guess you should come down here and tell all the commercial fisherman not to call the Coast Guard on their cell phones they didn’t get that message

 

[High Wire]

My NAV app has ais I won’t debate radar I haven’t use mine in years I could explain why but it will fall on deaf ears a good handheld VHF will have the same range as your standard VHF Care to make a wager I will

What NAV app??? Made by who? It’s not in the Apple App Store.
Post a screenshot.

 

[Aguyinak]

There are some reasonable responses and some that in my opinion are way off. First, SE Alaska cellular coverage is spotty at best, you will be frequently using your VHF, get a good one with AIS. You should also have a handheld as a backup, never as primary. It is ignorant and irresponsible for anybody to state that you will achieve the same performance with 5 watts of power and a 6” antenna vs 25 watts and a 6’ antenna mounted rooftop. SE Alaska is full of channels between steep, mountainous terrain, you don’t want to be without good, reliable VHF communication gear.

I also believe that tablets, and even pc based nav software should never be the sole means of electronic navigation. Yes they are handy, and often used as primary, but both are much more susceptible to failure than a quality name brand chart plotter.

Depending on your intended use, and your budget, there are a number of different options available. Lowrance provides good bang for the buck if you are on a lower budget and it is perfectly acceptable gear for weekend outings and the occasional longer excursion. Garmin and Furuno are better options if you are planning to use the boat more extensively or if you are more serious about fishing. I don’t recommend Simrad or Raymarine because, while decent gear, they have nearly zero market share in SE Alaska and you will find it difficult to find anybody with much working knowledge if you need support/advice/parts.

I am in the middle of a major electronics upgrade and I went with Furuno. Budget for me was secondary to reliability, availability of service and features/capability.

 

[Slowmo]

Asking about marine electronics is like getting into the old Ford vs Chevy debate. Frankly from what I've seen and heard the major suppliers of marine gear are all more or less equivalent, especially Raymarine, Navico (Lowrance, Simrad, B&G), and Garmin. I have had both Raymarine and Lowrance. Both are excellent. I like the Lowrance interface and display a bit better but it's just preference. Garmin is quite popular with small boats, they seem to offer the most bang for the buck. Navico separates their brands by market. So from what I see Lowrance emphasizes sport fishing, Simrad emphasizes cruising, and B&G is focused on sailboats. That said the Navico rep told me that the internals are identical, what varies is marketing and programmed features.

One thing I do find valuable is the display size. My Lowrance is 12" and frankly size matters. Yes I can navigate on my Iphone but the display is tiny. Even the 12" is small when you want a large scale overview. Make sure that you can overlay radar on the chart. My Raymarine does this and it really helps in the interpretation of the radar. Most systems do this but you have to have the right accessories. I find it easier to keep some things separate. While my multifunction display will give me depth and bottom profiles, I find that a separate depth display is much more useful since I can get depth at a glance rather than searching a multitude of numbers on the display.

Many systems will tie to the autopilot and allow you to program an entire route. Frankly I'm not sure I'd ever actually do this but for some maybe it is useful. Keep in mind though that the more 'functions' you put through the display the more distractions there are from its primary purpose, which is to tell you where you are. Like the screens in the car, the marine electronics can become as much of a distraction as a benefit sometimes.

 

[Shrew]

M......... a good handheld VHF will have the same range as your standard VHF Care to make a wager I will

I'll not wager, but I will offer this:

A good handheld can broadcast at 1watt, 2.5 watts, and 5 watts.

Your average Fixed Mount runs at 25 watts.

VHF is line of sight. Unless you're able to stand level with the top of your fixed mount VHF antennae, then the handheld could never have the same line of site.

Between lack of wattage and eyesight there is no way a handheld could be as good as a fixed mount.

 

[mvweebles]

Back to the original OP question:

I looked closely at the picture he provided. Frankly, assuming everything works, there is no functional reason to replace anything. But if I were replacing, I'd go with a similar layout to what is there. I'm not an expert, but have done this a couple times. I do not know enough to not make mistakes, so I'd find a good 1-man shop who can make sure I don't miss something or have something mis-matched. But this is pretty close to what I'd look for if I owned that sweet little Fisher.

3x4.5" Triton2 Displays across dash over campanionway $1800

For the chartplotter, I strongly prefer having a knob for input vs touchscreen. Here's a 12-inch Zeus for $3k

Radar Dome - Halo 24" '48-mile' at around $3k

Wind/Speed Sensor - Airmar (Apparent-only $750; Apparent + True $1250)). But check it out first - you may need the B&G wind sensor to steer-to-wind if you go with the NAC3 A/P.

Depth - Airmar Lo-Profile $650

GPS/Heading (will need something like this) $270

Autopilot. If you have one and it works well, I would hold-off on changing it. It can be interfaced with 0183. If you want to replace, would go with B&G as they are Navico, which is decent kit. You should be able to use your existing drive unit. But you will need a brain-box (NAC3 also comes with compass and rudder feedback) for about $2300.

Various installation stuff - although most of the screens come with N2k install kits, you will most likely need some ethernet and a hub. Honestly, I do not know this part well enough from memory. But would budget at least $1k for proprietary install stuff.

Good luck

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

Many systems will tie to the autopilot and allow you to program an entire route. Frankly I'm not sure I'd ever actually do this but for some maybe it is useful. Keep in mind though that the more 'functions' you put through the display the more distractions there are from its primary purpose, which is to tell you where you are. Like the screens in the car, the marine electronics can become as much of a distraction as a benefit sometimes.

Whether you program the entire route or just use NAV (vs AUTO), there is benefit. NAV will navigate the vessel to a specific waypoint and compensate for any set/drift. AUTO will maintain a compass heading which could vary rom the actual trackline.

While I agree that more data can be a distraction, the biggest distraction (by far) is the chartplotter itself - the little highway view is very enticing and believable. My sense is it takes a lot of years of experience to develop intuition that views the data as inputs (versus gospel declarations of fact) for final integration by the captain.

Regardless, I agree that while there are preferences, the major OEMs offer competitive packages. I spec'd out a B&G because OP has a sailboat. Putting something other in would potentially erode value in the used-market, plus B&G has some sail-specific items like sail-to-wind vs NAV or AUTO.

Peter

 

[koliver]

Just in case anyone took one of the previous posters seriously about that "Nav App":

I have one called SeaNav on my phone that I actually use a lot, and like a lot, as I generally use it from my house, to see who, how fast, and what destination.......when I see commercial traffic steaming past. In fact, I used it less than an hour ago to identify the CG Siyay, one of two hovercraft in our west coast fleet, zooming by at 35 knots.
In reliable cell range, or if you get good wifi some other way, that AIS is remarkably good. The reports are real time and are overlaid on a decent Nav chart. The chart has a datum that resembles one that I used to use from Navionics. It isn't quite as robust, and to set up a route or repeat a previous voyage is beyond my understanding of its functionality.
I would never suggest using this app as a substitute for real Navigation instruments. Whenever cell phones don't work, the Nav functions fail right along with the AIS. Where I like to cruise is almost defined by lack of cell service.
Equipping a boat for SE AK, as the OP is striving to do, means equipping for where there is spotty, at best, cell service.

 

[sbman]

Hello everyone:

I'm helping my brother with a top-to-bottom restoration of a Fisher 34 motorsailor. He is basically ripping everything out and doing a top to bottom restoration including all new wiring and electronics.

He's asking me for advice on which combo chartplotter/sonar/radar electronics package to go with on a moderate budget. The boat is in SE Alaska and will primarily be used as a liveaboard and cruiser in SE Alaska and the inside passage. I'm a little out of date as to what are the current preferred electronics packages for an older boat like this. He will probably be putting in all new gauges and controls, not just the nav electronics.

For a sense of what we are talking about, this is what the wheelhouse in a Fisher 34 looks like in terms of space

What would you guys recommend in terms of a new multifunction electronics package for a boat like this? I'm figuring something more or less in the ballpark of the Raytheon Axiom+ 9" multifunction plotter or something similar from one of the other brands.

What would you guys put on a boat like this?

The main thing I would recommend is to wait. If the refit is extensive and will take a long time don't buy electronics until you are near the finish line. You can do all your power wiring, lighting, etc... that stuff doesn't change much but just plan for the wiring runs for the equipment you know you are going to want (sounders, triducers, radome, etc...) and leave access to do that at the end.

Electronics change too quickly to have it sit on the shelf for 12+ months before you install it. The particular brand you choose is the ford/chevy conversation. I personally like the Furuno equipment I've used over other brands in most cases.

 

[Candee]

Whether you program the entire route or just use NAV (vs AUTO), there is benefit. NAV will navigate the vessel to a specific waypoint and compensate for any set/drift. AUTO will maintain a compass heading which could vary rom the actual trackline.

While I agree that more data can be a distraction, the biggest distraction (by far) is the chartplotter itself - the little highway view is very enticing and believable. My sense is it takes a lot of years of experience to develop intuition that views the data as inputs (versus gospel declarations of fact) for final integration by the captain.

Regardless, I agree that while there are preferences, the major OEMs offer competitive packages. I spec'd out a B&G because OP has a sailboat. Putting something other in would potentially erode value in the used-market, plus B&G has some sail-specific items like sail-to-wind vs NAV or AUTO.

Peter

Same old stuff same old people

 

[Comodave]

Same old stuff same old people

Who are you calling old, I resemble that remark…

 

[Asterix]

Fisher

We have a 1979 Fisher 37 home ported in Ketchikan that has been a project.
Our boat had a Neco autopilot that we refitted with a Simrad drive contoller and user control. Since the Neco was a mechanical drive system Simrad and Comnav were the only options we found compatible.
We just this season installed a 12” Furuno mfd for the chartplotter depthfinder replacement. It will if desired interface with the Simrad AP.
Plans are to replace the older existing Furuno radar with a newer model to run on the mfd.