ProlsoCharge isolator

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overgill

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
72
Location
us
Vessel Name
Altair
Vessel Make
Island Gypsy
I have a 32 Island Gypsy single engine. The battery set up is one start and two house battery's. Currently underway charging of the batterys is acomplished via a three bank diode isolator that the alternator is connected directly to. This works OK for me but takes considerable time to bring the battery back after a couple of days on the hook.

So in an attempt to speed the charging process up I have purchased the Balmar external regulator to beef up the alternator, from what I can gather this is a popular upgrade getting a lot of good press. Secondly I have been looking into ways to eliminate the antiquated diode isolator. Having waded through the different threads it seems the most popular method is to install voltage sensative relays that turn on/off depending on the state of charge or discharge.

To my question in my research I came across a product from Promarina, called ProlsoCharge. This gadget eliminates the isolator electronically. I can't say much about how it works but there web site describes the function and its seems it would be ideal for my application. Having found nothing via a search of this forum I was hoping someone might have some experience with this product.

I am guessing this is a relatively new gadget considering I was not able to find any ratings however it is availably at a number of places.
 
I don’t know anything about it, we have ACRs to connect the batteries when charging.
 
This thing from what I can tell dose the same thing and pulls fully charged batterys out of the circuit. Its interesting because looking at the auto relays I would need two this is less than the cost of two relays. Another thing that I like is it shuts down once the ignition is off leaving the batteries completely isolated.
 
I have used the Promariner Islocharge. It won't solve your problem. My guess is your alternator is to small. A balmar regulator will not improve/increase output. What is your alternator rating and what is your battery sizes?
 
I agree with Fryedaze mostly about alternator and battery size but with some differences.

There are FET type isolators. They are similar in function to the older diode isolators BUT the FETs used don't create nearly as much Vdrop as the diodes.

Diodes used to cause about 0.6V drop which was a LOT in a 12v system. There were work arounds of course but unless one of the workarounds was used the batteries would suffer chronic undercharging untill recharged at the dock. Even so that running undercharge cost some life of the batteries.

The FET types cause about 0.1Vdrop which is a huge amount better than the diode although still some drop. ALso the FET type will produce much less heat so for the same current capacity the FET can be smaller. I would suggest don't get the minimum size for the alt. output, rather go higher capacity than the minimum.

If you don't want to go with ACRs then consider the FET type isolators.

I agree you need to look at your alternator size. If it is too small it is too small especially if your cruising is changing from weekend jaunts to week or multiweek jaunts and anchoring a lot more. THen the lack of dock side recharging can become a problem.

However performance CAN be improved by the use of an external regulator. One caveat though and pay attention. If you adapt your existing alternator then use the output reduction/limiting function or you most likely will burn up your existing alternator.
The ext. regulator will run the alt. MUCH harder for much longer.

I did the same as you are proposing many years ago and it improved the charge rate a lot. My alt. was 60A. output. I regulated it down to about 45A but even so the recharge was far better and faster without burning up my alt.

Now I have a 150A but again it is regulated to approx 100A. I think I am going to turn it up a bit but no more than about 75% output to keep the alt. heat down.

If you can fit a 100A alt. do so along with an external SMART regulator and the performance should increase dramatically. Even so use the protections. Newer regulators now use temperature monitoring of the alternator for protection. Even so I would turn it down to max 75 of 80% and keep a close eye on it.

A 125/150 A alternator at 125/150A might be too much for a single belt drive at more than 100A output although it would be even better if you used the reg. to limit max. output to 100A. Then you should get a solid 100A on a single belt and the alt. won't croak from heating.

Just my thoughts.
 
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"Having waded through the different threads it seems the most popular method is to install voltage sensative relays that turn on/off depending on the state of charge or discharge."

This like many gadgets relies on electronics to do a simple task.

The RV industry has a far more reliable and less costly system.

Auto key switches have an ACC terminal which is only powered with the engine operating. They hook this to a solenoid (about $18.00) that connects the start batt with the house batt.

You will need a key switch with an ACC terminal, Cole Hersel, about $20.00.

A couple of million RV folks for 6 decades cant be wrong.
 
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Good morning Gentlemen,

Thank you for your response. After opening this thread I did another search through the forum and was able to find some info on FET type of isolators. Seems correct spelling goes a long way with computer searches. So my apologies that this thread is a bit redundant.

I did find considerable information regarding the ACR approach to isolation and agree that from an electrical standpoint it would be the most efficient short of manual switching the batteries. The thing that attracts me to the FET isolator is how once the ignition is off the batteries are left totally isolated. No issues with relays chattering or any sort of cross talk between the batteries.

I found two systems that appear to be perfect for my single engine/alternator three battery set up.

1- Promariner Proisocharge that Dave mentioned: I have to admit the feedback on this unite was mixed. some have had good luck and some not.

2- Victron Argofet: This unite had very little feed back with the exception of the vender.

So after all this BS I puchased a "-Balmar ARS-5-H regulator to install on my factory Cummings alternator. (Could be wrong but I think its 90 amp ) This upgrade is tried and true so I am confident that this will increase the alternator output significantly.
Figured it was pretty much a coin toss so I order the Promariner FET isolator to replace my existing diode isolator. None of this has been installed but I am committed.

The shrink wrap came off yesterday, and for the moment launch is expected on or about the 1st of April. Once its in I will do the install and update as to the results.

Stay safe ,,see you on the water
 
I am a little surprised that your OEM Cummins alternator has connections for an external regulator, but if it does the external regulator will make a big difference.

Another thing you can consider which will let you keep your three bank diode isolator is to wire the voltage sense connection on the Balmar regulator to the house bank. This way the alternator will put out enough extra voltage to compensate for the diode voltage drop. Also the alternator will be sensing what is probably the lowest charged battery in the system so it will provide more and longer amperage output

Also order the Balmar alternator temperature sensing probe which will cut back the alternator output in half when it gets too hot.

When you do install the FET isolator still keep the voltage sense wire connected to the house battery.

David
 
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Yep, depending on which alternator you have, you will probably have to take the alternator apart to extract the leads for the brush rigging (exciter). Not hard to do, but not super obvious either.
 
Thanks Dave

I did get the temp sense, figured it was prudent. Interesting thought bypassing the diode isolator and sensing right at the battery. Not certain how that would effect the start battery if it would cause an overcharge. I would have to think the FET isolator basically connects the batteries together so it may not make much difference were the sense is? Just babbling but good food for thought.

The Cummings alternator is not specifically set up to use an external regulator it requires the removal of the original regulator and adding a tap off the field and armature to feed the Balmar. I have done this for a dock neighbor (Nice when the risk is all his). It's really not that complicated. The local battery shop will do it for a modest price.
 
Further to Ski's comment above, I am not a fan of modifying the OEM alternator to drive it harder to make more amperage. Balmar's alternator temp sensor can help by cutting back output when it gets too hot, but at the end of the day you are putting more stress on your alternator and probably shortening its life.

You have a two battery house bank, so maybe 200 Ahs total. You shouldn't charge these at higher than 25% of their Ah capacity so about 50 amps. If you keep it down to 50 amps or less you will probably be ok with your existing alternator with external terminals for the Balmar regulator.

But consider upgrading your alternator to a heavier one with external regulator terminals, particularly if you increase your house battery size.

I don't know much about Cummins alternators but I understand that Leece-Neville and maybe others make alternators that will fit, are heavier and have external terminals. Replacing your OEM alternator with one might not cost that much more than modifying it.

Edit for your last post: Your FET isolator will prevent the regulator from "seeing" the house voltage if it is tied to the alternator output. An ACR or combiner will allow that however. So since you are using the FET isolator, be sure to connect the voltage sense to the house battery. The starting batteries won't be affected.

David
 
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With a single engine, a start batt and two house batts (presumably house being one bank), you really only need on ACR. Connect alt straight to start batt, connect start batt to house bank with ACR. Get rid of diode based isolator completely.

Diode isolators really do screw up charging. That 0.7V drop really slows things down.

The Cummins alts usually keep volts in a good range (13.8-14.2) so with the isolator gone and ACR in place you should not need to do anything else.

I have run into quite a few Balmar regulators that did not work, owner just did not know it because alt failure was masked by gen and charger operating.

Having three-step alternator regulation is nice, but in 95% of boat use is just not very important. Only really pays off when you have minimal engine running between long anchorages with inverter use. Otherwise just a dumb OEM alternator does fine.
 
Again thank you:

The house bank is 2 4Ds if I am not mistaken gives me 400 Ahs, or at least that is what they're rated when you buy them. I have no intentions of increasing the house capacity at least for now, my goal is to reduce the charge time wile underway.

I think I understand were your coming from on not overcharging the start battery the FET isolator actually disconnects any bank that is fully charged, or at least that's the claim.

The sensing on the other hand I don't get. Believe me I am not arguing the point just trying to understand. With 2 house batteries what one do I pick?? I do see how the ACR is a dead short to the alternator but I am having a problem seeing how the FET at .1V drop could be all that different. If I went with the ACR option I would need three ACRs part of the reason I didn't. Seems I am missing something here not out of the norm for this old brain

gill
 
Ski

Thanks for chiming in, that makes a lot of sense other than I use the two house batteries as two banks. That would only require putting the house switch on both or using two ACRs.

The best part of your suggestion is simplicity, getting rid of the diode isolator and still having a way to charge the house underway. Not changing the alternator. I could always upgrade the alternator later if it warranted it.

I am going to give that approach some serious thought thank you!

Anyone need a new Balmar or a FET isolator.

gill
 
Ok, 400 Ahs of house. Well the first question is why two banks of house batteries? Best practice is to wire all of your house batteries as one bank.

Secondly that relatively big bank could definitely overtax your alternator if you use an external regulator. If it were one bank and it were down 50% it would max out that alternator for a couple of hours at least with the Balmar regulator if it were not cut back by the temperature probe.

Why don't you use the switch and a jumper to tie all the batteries together when the house bank is down to half and see how the exiting alternator charges before doing anything else. That will confirm if one house bank and an ACR or combiner will work ok.

David
 
What is the ProIso or ProSplit?

This product is nothing more than a stepped voltage sensitive combining relay. For added complexity, and additional failure points, the units often have multiple relays in one box and it's installed in-between the alternator and the bank not between batteries like other charge management devices. The ProISO (ProMariner) or ProSplit (Sterling Power) combines batteries based on voltage in a priority order or in steps. It waits until each battery has come to 13.3V before bringing another bank on-line. That's it, so fancy I know.:rolleyes:

With a near fully charged start battery achieving 13.3V can literally be just a few seconds. In other words your 99% SoC start battery exceeds 13.3V in a matter of seconds once the charge source fires up, because of its SoC. Once start is at 13.3V the device brings the house bank on-line. When the house bank hits 13.3V it then brings a third battery on-line, if you have a three bank model.

All sorts of wild marketing claims are made such as; "Priority setting for the START battery to ensure a completely charged start battery."

I can see the product development meeting now;

"Let's pray on the fears of boaters who worry they may not be able to start their boats engine.". "Yeah, yeah boss we'll call it "priority start" and throw so much confusing lingo at them they'll think they are getting something they're not."

If someone can explain how a start battery, at the point in its Coulombic curve where it's the most inefficient, eg: 97-99.5% SoC, can become "completely charged" in "a few seconds" (quoting the Sterling manual) at just 13.3V you've discovered best battery storage medium in existence.... ;)

That last 2% of the SoC curve is the absolute longest & excruciatingly slow part of the charging curve that exists.. I guess we just supposed to assume Ohm's law & Coulombic efficiency do not apply to these products? "Completely charged" in just "a few seconds" at 13.3V......?

"Wow, I must have that." says the often misinformed boating public. This type of marketing hype is how you can get mugged by the marketing department...

With these devices the start battery is always connected to the alternator meaning charging begins with the start battery, all "few seconds" of it.. Please understand that 13.3V does not charge a battery. It also means all charging amperage for the deeply discharged house bank must pass through the device where with a standard ACR you can feed all charge sources directly to the house bank and optimize charge performance.

It really means a less than direct path to the bank that actually needs charging the most. Because these devices sit smack dab in the alternator path, the closest we can sense voltage is at the unit itself. It can not account for any voltage drop between the unit and battery bank. This obviously = Non optimal for charging performance.

These devices also requires an "ignition feed" to turn on. So, if you're planning on using it for all your charge sources, such as wind, solar, hydro, shore charger etc., like owners do with Blue Sea Systems ACR's, other VSR/combiners, Echo Chargers, Digital Duo Chargers etc. you'll probably want to know the quiescent draw of the unit when it is powered up 24/7, not just when "ignition activated".

Unfortunately neither Sterling nor ProMariner tell you this critical specification in the manual. All that marketing and they just happened to leave that piece of critical information out....??

How it "completely charges" your start battery:;)


When the start bank hits 13.3V it then combines/parallels with bank #2. When the system voltage (combined voltage of bank 1 & 2) is again at 13.3V it then parallels in bank #3 and so on.

It does not prioritize and "completely charge" a start battery first, as they like to suggest through marketing, it simply brings it to 13.3V before paralleling it with the house bank or what ever bank is on terminal #2. This would be no different than you removing 1.5Ah's from your start battery, then turning on the charger until the battery voltage hit 13.3V, then turning it off. You can't replace those 1.5Ah in a few seconds so suggesting the units "completely charges" your start battery based on "priority" is misleading at best.

The way it can completely recharge your start battery is no different than a Blue Sea Systems ACR or Yandina Combiner and it does this in parallel with the other banks.

"Completely charged" Misleading? Absolutely.. The device simply begins with the start battery then brings the others in parallel as voltage attains the 13.3V level.

Even for a 50% discharged house bank attaining 13.3V does not take a long time with a properly sized charging system. For example even a high acceptance rate Lifeline AGM discharged to 50% SoC (in lab conditions for accurate measurements) then recharged at .2C, this is 20% of Ah capacity or 20A on a 100Ah battery, will attain 13.3V in about 20 minutes. This is why for a start battery North of 98% SOC this voltage rise takes "a few seconds". The Blue Sea Systems 7610-SI ACR combines at 13.0V and this happens much faster than 13.3V. That same Lifeline battery hits 13.0V in about 2 minutes.

Two 7610-SI ACR's would cost about the same as one ProISO, and they will work with all charging sources, not just the engines alternator.

This article goes into a lot of detail on how ACR's work:

Making Sense of Automatic Charging Relays

Two 7610-SI ACR's to charge the other banks is very simple and they are extremely reliable...
 
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Dave
There are two existing battery switches so to your point I can actually try this out by simply switching the start battery to the house (emergency start) and combining the house batteries via the house switch. This would emulate having a ACR connecting the engine to the house enabling me to test this out without spending a dime or moving a wire. We'll one wire ,,the alternator output has to be moved from the diode isolator to the engine battery.

I honestly never gave it much thought as to why I use the house batteries separately. Old habits die hard. The boat came with the two house batteries wired across a switch and I just used it that way. Now that you point that out what difference dose it make if I draw from one or both the total available AH is the same. If I am on the hook for more than a day I switch to the second battery, if I left it on both I could easily go two days or more.

This has been very enlightening. Looks like I will be doing a few test before I commit to how I am going to alter the existing system, one thing is for certain the diode isolator goes. The ACR combining the engine with the house looks like the right way to go even though I rejected that at first. It's a wait and see one how the alternator preforms as is before I decide to upgrade to the external regulator and or bigger alternator.

My boat having a single motor and alternator makes things relatively simple I want to thank you and Sky for making me look before I install a bunch of complicated mods that I may regret.

gill
 
Ski

Thanks for chiming in, that makes a lot of sense other than I use the two house batteries as two banks. That would only require putting the house switch on both or using two ACRs.


Contiguously wire this as one large house bank, feed all charge sources to house, and then all you need is one Blue Sea Systems 7610-SI ACR to top off the start battery.

This article will explain why to wire it like this..
https://marinehowto.com/automatic-charging-relays/ https://marinehowto.com/automatic-charging-relays/








.
 
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This thing from what I can tell dose the same thing and pulls fully charged batterys out of the circuit. Its interesting because looking at the auto relays I would need two this is less than the cost of two relays. Another thing that I like is it shuts down once the ignition is off leaving the batteries completely isolated.

Can you share the link for this device. I maybe able to share some info.
 
CMS

Great explanation! Seems I drank the cool aid,,how you explain it make good sense.
 
With a single engine, a start batt and two house batts (presumably house being one bank), you really only need on ACR. Connect alt straight to start batt, connect start batt to house bank with ACR. Get rid of diode based isolator completely.

Diode isolators really do screw up charging. That 0.7V drop really slows things down.

The Cummins alts usually keep volts in a good range (13.8-14.2) so with the isolator gone and ACR in place you should not need to do anything else.

I have run into quite a few Balmar regulators that did not work, owner just did not know it because alt failure was masked by gen and charger operating.

Having three-step alternator regulation is nice, but in 95% of boat use is just not very important. Only really pays off when you have minimal engine running between long anchorages with inverter use. Otherwise just a dumb OEM alternator does fine.

Ski

Thanks for chiming in, that makes a lot of sense other than I use the two house batteries as two banks. That would only require putting the house switch on both or using two ACRs.

The best part of your suggestion is simplicity, getting rid of the diode isolator and still having a way to charge the house underway. Not changing the alternator. I could always upgrade the alternator later if it warranted it.

I am going to give that approach some serious thought thank you!

Anyone need a new Balmar or a FET isolator.

gill

These diagrams might help you: https://www.bluesea.com/systems





What is the ProIso or ProSplit?

This product is nothing more than a stepped voltage sensitive combining relay. For added complexity, and additional failure points, the units often have multiple relays in one box and it's installed in-between the alternator and the bank not between batteries like other charge management devices. The ProISO (ProMariner) or ProSplit (Sterling Power) combines batteries based on voltage in a priority order or in steps. It waits until each battery has come to 13.3V before bringing another bank on-line. That's it, so fancy I know.:rolleyes:

With a near fully charged start battery achieving 13.3V can literally be just a few seconds. In other words your 99% SoC start battery exceeds 13.3V in a matter of seconds once the charge source fires up, because of its SoC. Once start is at 13.3V the device brings the house bank on-line. When the house bank hits 13.3V it then brings a third battery on-line, if you have a three bank model.

All sorts of wild marketing claims are made such as; "Priority setting for the START battery to ensure a completely charged start battery."

I can see the product development meeting now;

"Let's pray on the fears of boaters who worry they may not be able to start their boats engine.". "Yeah, yeah boss we'll call it "priority start" and throw so much confusing lingo at them they'll think they are getting something they're not."

If someone can explain how a start battery, at the point in its Coulombic curve where it's the most inefficient, eg: 97-99.5% SoC, can become "completely charged" in "a few seconds" (quoting the Sterling manual) at just 13.3V you've discovered best battery storage medium in existence.... ;)

That last 2% of the SoC curve is the absolute longest & excruciatingly slow part of the charging curve that exists.. I guess we just supposed to assume Ohm's law & Coulombic efficiency do not apply to these products? "Completely charged" in just "a few seconds" at 13.3V......?

"Wow, I must have that." says the often misinformed boating public. This type of marketing hype is how you can get mugged by the marketing department...

With these devices the start battery is always connected to the alternator meaning charging begins with the start battery, all "few seconds" of it.. Please understand that 13.3V does not charge a battery. It also means all charging amperage for the deeply discharged house bank must pass through the device where with a standard ACR you can feed all charge sources directly to the house bank and optimize charge performance.

It really means a less than direct path to the bank that actually needs charging the most. Because these devices sit smack dab in the alternator path, the closest we can sense voltage is at the unit itself. It can not account for any voltage drop between the unit and battery bank. This obviously = Non optimal for charging performance.

These devices also requires an "ignition feed" to turn on. So, if you're planning on using it for all your charge sources, such as wind, solar, hydro, shore charger etc., like owners do with Blue Sea Systems ACR's, other VSR/combiners, Echo Chargers, Digital Duo Chargers etc. you'll probably want to know the quiescent draw of the unit when it is powered up 24/7, not just when "ignition activated".

Unfortunately neither Sterling nor ProMariner tell you this critical specification in the manual. All that marketing and they just happened to leave that piece of critical information out....??

How it "completely charges" your start battery:;)


When the start bank hits 13.3V it then combines/parallels with bank #2. When the system voltage (combined voltage of bank 1 & 2) is again at 13.3V it then parallels in bank #3 and so on.

It does not prioritize and "completely charge" a start battery first, as they like to suggest through marketing, it simply brings it to 13.3V before paralleling it with the house bank or what ever bank is on terminal #2. This would be no different than you removing 1.5Ah's from your start battery, then turning on the charger until the battery voltage hit 13.3V, then turning it off. You can't replace those 1.5Ah in a few seconds so suggesting the units "completely charges" your start battery based on "priority" is misleading at best.

The way it can completely recharge your start battery is no different than a Blue Sea Systems ACR or Yandina Combiner and it does this in parallel with the other banks.

"Completely charged" Misleading? Absolutely.. The device simply begins with the start battery then brings the others in parallel as voltage attains the 13.3V level.

Even for a 50% discharged house bank attaining 13.3V does not take a long time with a properly sized charging system. For example even a high acceptance rate Lifeline AGM discharged to 50% SoC (in lab conditions for accurate measurements) then recharged at .2C, this is 20% of Ah capacity or 20A on a 100Ah battery, will attain 13.3V in about 20 minutes. This is why for a start battery North of 98% SOC this voltage rise takes "a few seconds". The Blue Sea Systems 7610-SI ACR combines at 13.0V and this happens much faster than 13.3V. That same Lifeline battery hits 13.0V in about 2 minutes.

Two 7610-SI ACR's would cost about the same as one ProISO, and they will work with all charging sources, not just the engines alternator.

This article goes into a lot of detail on how ACR's work:

Making Sense of Automatic Charging Relays

Two 7610-SI ACR's to charge the other banks is very simple and they are extremely reliable...

Yeah I have one of these systems. Wish I would have gone through ACRs instead. I spent more on wire than I did on the unit. The revised unit has additional circuitry to "fix" the internal relays from sticking. When this system dies, I will replace it with ACRs and bigger alternators.
 
Can you share the link for this device. I maybe able to share some info.

I don't have a link to Promarina but there is a couple of promos on youtube and West Marine sells it

Promarina Proisocharge

gill
 
Overgill: Thanks for your kind comments. I and I am sure Ski appreciate it.

Here is the approach I follow when dealing with similar problems:

1. Think through what is going on. If there is something I don't understand, I research it on the internet. Usually if I post on a forum, I ask for information, not solutions.

2. Develop a simple diagnostic plan. This is the step that most ignore. Some always rush to the expensive solution which is often wrong or covers up the underlying problem. Many diagnostics are simple and inexpensive.

3. Then make a plan for modifications or parts replacement after the diagnostics have pointed you in the right direction.

Good luck!!!

David
 

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