Are paper charts still relevant?

[Captain James]

We just have two iPads and two iPhones and a Mac plus a Raymarine MFD so we are okay.

 

[kbad]

Paper chart update plot position each anchorage, electronics fail, systems run by Governments can be shut down for various reasons such as conflict, lightning strikes can fry electronics. While dead reckoning is possible in sight of land marks other details are not so readily apparent. Warnings on electronic charts i have seen are not to be used for "Navigational purposes".

 

[HTurner]

I can not believe how many still confuse electronic charts with chartplotting.

How the heck do you think the government stores charts till they print them on paper?

Displaying it on an electronic screen is NOT a chartplotter.... just a paper chart in digital format.

Thank you!!!! I can't understand the confusion either...

 

[tiltrider1]

Some of the arguments for paper charts are mind boggling in their short sidedness. So if my gps fails or the government messes with the signal how the hell would I know were I was on a paper chart. If I’m smart enough to use my compass to take headings off landmarks it wouldn’t matter if I plotted that on paper or on my digital chart. If lightning strikes and it manages to take out my 3 MFD’s, my three laptops, my two iPads, my two phones, and my In Reach it would also catch my paper charts on fire.

 

[Northern Spy]

I like paper charts. I also like maps. I don't have a screen large enough on my boat or motorcycle to view the big picture.

That said, I don't really navigate with charts or maps either. I use electronic devices.

Sometimes, I prefer electronic books, sometimes I prefer a old vintage book.

Sometimes I read pdf or word documents, sometimes I print them out.

So only the user can answer the circumstances of when they are relevant or not.

I have used a piece of a topo map to start a fire once.

Charts and topos make cool wrapping paper too.

 

[DaveGibson]

I can not believe how many still confuse electronic charts with chartplotting.

How the heck do you think the government stores charts till they print them on paper?

Displaying it on an electronic screen is NOT a chartplotter.... just a paper chart in digital format.

Those would be scanned and digitized charts, not "electronic charts". Are we on an "electronic forum"? A "forum plotter"? A chart plotter is a digital chart display with overlays (radar, AIS, little pointed boat icon). Folks refer to electronic charts meaning, I assume, chart plotting.

 

[psneeld]

Those would be scanned and digitized charts, not "electronic charts". Are we on an "electronic forum"? A "forum plotter"? A chart plotter is a digital chart display with overlays (radar, AIS, little pointed boat icon). Folks refer to electronic charts meaning, I assume, chart plotting.

True the original chart was scanned...but after that all printed charts come from digitized and stored data and sent to outside printers besides NOAA.

So you can get it from the government either way...so what is the difference other than medium? My real point is if GPS is lost, the digital chart still is in your plotter or computer...2 SEPARATE THINGS......

As highlighted, too many keep associating electronic charts with only chartplotters and if their MFD or poorly designed electical supply fails, they lose all charting capability.

Others set up for PC or tablet charting/plotting...not necessarily if the primary fails.

 

[FWT]

We have had several threads on paper charts, chart plotters vs PC's / tablets / apps, etc. In a lot of ways the different conversations are variations on the same theme. So in my reading on a Facebook forum, the story below pops up. Well written, entertaining, and contains a series of good points not the least of which is navigation when the unexpected occurs. I thought it useful to share.

________________

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1248195261992819

Roger Long

I was asked about our longest day in my recent post and it’s a story that deserves it’s own post (and a long post warning). No question that the very first day was the longest day by track as well as misery. “We” isn’t quite accurate as I did the delivery from Detroit MI to Albany NY with a crew of friends and Patsy wisely stayed home.

We bought the boat very late in the year. I did my own survey. Every time I have bought a boat or house the surveyor nit picked every little thing and then missed the one big issue I really needed to know about. Elephants in the room just aren’t on their radar screen. The seller was psychotic and the broker clueless (a story in itself) and there was delay after delay while I paid for hotel rooms. Number two or three on my list of things never to do in a boat is take one you are unfamiliar with out in open water. Just after closing, I looked at the weather. The Erie Canal was near closing (we ended up being just about the last boat through) and I realized that, if we didn’t leave at first light, the boat was going to spend the winter hauled out in Michigan. Definitely not part of the plan.

Everything went smoothly until dark when the wind came up blowing straight down the lake as we pounded into it. My first hint that it would be a long night was when I looked out to see the fenders, which had been stowed in the typical basket brackets on the bow rolling down the side decks. I rushed out and brought them into the cabin. The compass light was out so we were steering by the heading line on my laptop. I gave Paul the helm and watch and turned in. I was woken by the boat rolling heavily and furniture falling over. Paul had been steering along, pounding into the seas, when the computer flashed the message: “In order to provide you with a better user experience, we are upgrading you to Windows 10”. Before he could find and click the button to stop it, the screen went blue. It was as dark as the inside of a cow outside, not a light, not a star visible anywhere. He instantly went out of control. The console still has the dent from the big Barkcalounger chair (disposed of at first opportunity) flying into it.

We rigged up a compass light by taping a head lamp to the compass and I took over. The boat was uncontrollable. The compass swung wildly from side to side. I kept getting into the troughs sending the furniture flying again. Years of steering experience could not get the boat settled on course or the compass steady. The crew all came up to the helm because they couldn’t stay in their bunks. I spent two hours thinking *OMG, I’ve gone through all this agony and spent all this money on a boat that can’t be steered in rough water.* It was about the lowest moment of my cruising life. Then, I saw a tiny glimmer of light ahead. Maybe a boat. Instantly, the compass stopped swinging and the boat ran as straight as if it were on rails. It was the moon coming up and, as soon as I had a reference to judge the rate of turn against the previously invisible horizon, steering was easy. The boat has been a joy to steer ever since.

I later kicked myself for not remembering my flight training. If you lose all your instruments in IFR conditions and have to depend on the compass to avoid turning out of control, you want to get on a north south heading while you sort things out. Compasses are far less stable going east to west.

The computer eventually got Windows 10 installed. Paul steered, Ron sat vomiting into a bucket, and I tried to manipulate the mouse to get the key for the navigation software re-entered. That cutting and pasting took about 20 minutes with me standing and hanging on to a stanchion while Paul fended off the manic Barkcalounger. I finally got the key entered only to receive the message, “Can not contact activation server.” We did a 90 degree turn towards shore and cell phone coverage. The wind eased, we got the software back in contact with its mother ship just as the sun came up and the remainder of the transit to Buffalo was smooth and uneventful.

 

[Hippocampus]

Tilt- it’s the hard edges that are the problem. Being off miles and miles mid ocean isn’t going to get you in trouble. Even in the absence of keeping a DR plot with any set of of integral compass binoculars or with a hockey puck compass you can triangulate. Paper charts clearly show multiple targets to use for this purpose. You need a rough idea of where you are. You don’t need to do a sight reduction. You just need to figure out the angle of the North Star. A simple protractor will serve. Having a level as well helps. No math required . However even that’s rarely required. If you have half a brain you know where you were when the electronics failed.
We still carry a knot stick, drop line with wax in the weights recess for depth /judge bottom hockey puck, and a hand held wind speed and direction mechanical device. Total expense maybe $50. Biggest expense was good binocs (steiners-not in the ~$50) with integral compass. Even when the electronics were just fine have had occasion to use all of them. Last piece of kit that’s also really helpful is a golf range finder.

 

[Hippocampus]

Tilt-real world.
Engine intake thru hull partially sheared between valve and baseplate. Occurred in middle of a storm at night in Bay of Maine . Before found and fixed ( oiled rags, tape and Spanish windlass) floorboards floating and water above batteries. No radios (handhelds either broken or ran out of charge) no electronics. Head west until land sighted after storm passed. Saw landmarks. Triangulated . Made landfall.

It’s been mentioned multiple times by many here having a basic understanding of non electronic navigation is easy, fun and useful when the fecal matter hits the rotating blade. Even if your electronics never fail having a basic knowledge base will make you a better captain and navigator. The above event occurred in a coastal setting. This skill set is real good to have in your toolbox.

 

[SteveK]

For me paper charts become useful when beyond sight of land (includes fog). I have an extensive set stored in vac seal bags ready if needed.
On one occasion offshore some 150 miles electronics failed due to humidity inside the boat. The paper chart was on the table the whole trip and marked with the track and position when electronics failed. From last known position did dead reckoning using speed, compass and time.
You may never need them but keep them handy

 

[Mako]

Twice last year off the Washington/Oregon coast I heard folks calling on channel 16 for assistance because they had lost electronic navigation and were lost.

I honestly don't understand this. If someone blind folds you and drops you off 20 miles from WA/OR in a boat with no electronics, couldn't you:

• Steer east on your compass
• Find Polaris and keep it to port
• If the seas are predominantly from the NW, then keep the seas to port or port quarter
• Look for the ugly yellowish hazey air quality that typically covers our cities and mainland
• Keep the noon-ish sun to starboard
• Steer opposite the sunset
• Lastly, in a moment of epiphany, realize that you need some training?

 

[sean9c]

Using paper charts and plotting is just fun. Traveling any distance at trawler speeds is boring, there is nothing to do. Plotting keeps you engaged, looking around at landmarks for confirmation, the whole awareness of where you are, feeling like you're actually doing and learning something rather than just looking at a screen.
Have you ever noticed that the guys that know the most trust the least. The owner that only knows that when he pushes the on button and his screen lights up thinks it's all wonderful. The guy that installs and works on all of it is bring along a paper chart because he knows how fragile the whole thing is.

 

[psneeld]

Using paper charts and plotting is just fun. Traveling any distance at trawler speeds is boring, there is nothing to do. Plotting keeps you engaged, looking around at landmarks for confirmation, the whole awareness of where you are, feeling like you're actually doing and learning something rather than just looking at a screen.
Have you ever noticed that the guys that know the most trust the least. The owner that only knows that when he pushes the on button and his screen lights up thinks it's all wonderful. The guy that installs and works on all of it is bring along a paper chart because he knows how fragile the whole thing is.

Not sure the "one that knows the most trusts the least" is wholly accurate as the commercial world is pretty much paperless.

Fragile is only as good or bad as what you buy and how you install.

You can follow along and plot and have fun on computer screen charts just like a paper chart only without the mess of a pencil.

If one likes paper...great..but the argument is like paper magazines versus online ones....in many cases, one is a freakin picture of the other...what is the difference beside preference?

 

[Hippocampus]

Very true in a large steel ship with redundancy. Not so much in a small recreational vessel.

 

[koliver]

Very true in a large steel ship with redundancy. Not so much in a small recreational vessel.

Know your audience. Here, speaking to mostly recreational boaters, mostly folks who use their boats in areas where they have local knowledge, so don't look closely at the nav instruments of whatever variety full time.

For boaters like us, this is where paper shines. Paper is large format, can be laid out on the table when it is time to leave that comfortable local area. Plans can be made while able to see the whole trip laid out in front of you. Then you can use your plotter while you move the boat along that proposed route, but always have the ability to quickly pull out the paper and see what is around the next corner, without upsetting the immediate navigation tool while you do so.

Everyone on the trip, including from the adjacent boat, can participate in the "poring over charts" exercise, learn from it, then while on the trip, can contribute suggestions or opinions based on the same observations made at the table as the "Navigator".

Paper is far superior to electronic for this purpose.

 

[fletch]

I love paper charts

Need both, I find paper better to study for a longer course i.e. strategic, digital better for tactical i.e. close in and currency of updates.

 

[psneeld]

Very true in a large steel ship with redundancy. Not so much in a small recreational vessel.

Hope you weren't talking to me as a former electronics installer and small vessel captain for decades.

 

[Northern Spy]

I think that I pilot as much or more than I navigate. Really, a placemat or a road map would serve me equally well. Most of the real dangerous stuff (aka rocks and reefs) one can see or sense before one hits it at our low speed.

 

[Hippocampus]

What’s enjoyable is input from people of different backgrounds and experience.
People here have enough discretionary income to boat but many don’t have unlimited deep pockets. So they aren’t putting pro level furuno or similar equipment on their boats.
Although a intelligent crowd many don’t have the level of training nor sophistication to troubleshoot a installation nor assess and remedy a malfunction. Many are dependent upon a hired installer (as with any profession of varying skill and diligence) or self install. Any device may have gremlins or fail.
Mid ocean our radar failed. Boat was two years old. Installation was by our builder. Fortunately had a relationship with a electronics guy. Over the Satphone he was able to walk me through possible causes. In the absence of his input I’d be s out of luck. I’m not a electronics installer and have limited sophistication.
Going from Grenada to the grenadines our RM froze showing only 1/2 a screen. Didn’t matter which unit we made the master or turned off the whole system froze. Reboots made no difference. Using paper, iPad and DR continued our cruise uneventfully. Upon getting to St.Lucia tech diagnose the unit under the hard dodger failed. Rest could be fixed. Could replace that unit with the current generation but it wouldn’t be networked with the rest of the system so replaced the other two as well.
On multiple times in my life both off shore and coastal electronics have failed. Carrying independent electronics on laptops and iPads has been sufficient. Haven’t had a lightening strike event yet (knock on wood). However when cruising and doing landfalls in new places still have found one person looking at a chart book and iPad with the other helming and looking at the screen lowers stress.

 

[AlanT]

This is very much a personal choice issue. I suspect that the older the respondent is the more likely they will see value in paper charts. Is this because they are 'Old Fashioned'? or perhaps because they have lived long enough to know that anything that can go wrong will go wrong! I am checking in for an international flight today. I have my boarding pass on my phone, but I will also have a paper copy in my pocket. I might lose my phone, but I am unlikely to lose both phone and the paper in my pocket!

Currently we cruise within Puget Sound. I have a paper chart on the chart table under glass. Guests tend to migrate to that when they want to know where we are going, or the location of our favorite spots. So much easier to get an overall perspective than scrolling an MFD.

For navigating the only time I have used and kept up with paper charts was crossing the English channel as a Yachtmaster student, and when crossing the Atlantic.

 

[SteveK]

AlanT
Perhaps us old farts actually used paper charts for many years before the advent of electronic means. Ever use Loran? Imagine our excitement when that became available for pleasure craft. The rest is history. My smartphone with Navionics can plot a course. Oh, the days of the flip phone, where has the time gone.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think there’s more agreement than disagreement here. Believe most here use MFDs to pilot and navigate (except those who have gone to laptop or iPad alone). The backup to the MFDs is some form of battery powered electronics. Paper is the supplement. Folks find this supplement of more or less value depending upon circumstance and personal preference. Few here would be placed in danger by the failure of their MFD(s).
Have lived through RDF and loran and have no desire to return. Would note I think Rotterdam has returned to a new version of loran.

 

[AlanT]

AlanT
Perhaps us old farts actually used paper charts for many years before the advent of electronic means. Ever use Loran? Imagine our excitement when that became available for pleasure craft. The rest is history. My smartphone with Navionics can plot a course. Oh, the days of the flip phone, where has the time gone.

Yep. I still have Loran charts for the entire W Coast USA/Mexico.
~A

 

[SteveK]

Think there’s more agreement than disagreement here. Believe most here use MFDs to pilot and navigate (except those who have gone to laptop or iPad alone). The backup to the MFDs is some form of battery powered electronics. Paper is the supplement. Folks find this supplement of more or less value depending upon circumstance and personal preference. Few here would be placed in danger by the failure of their MFD(s).
Have lived through RDF and loran and have no desire to return. Would note I think Rotterdam has returned to a new version of loran.

Someone just watched Independence day part two where they took out all the satellites again.

 

[cat38skip]

Paper charts are irrelevant until...

Paper charts are irrelevant until...
The electrons stop flowing.

 

[grahamdouglass]

I just completed a trip back from a haul out. It was from Coal Harbour, in Vancouver to Reed Point Marina in Port Moody, a distance or about 9 or so miles and transiting through second narrows, a tidal challenged strait.

On my way back to Vancouver I lost my GPS coordinates.

My boat disappeared from my plot charter, I had no lat/long position, no course heading , no speed. I was on auto pilot at the time so I ensured I had control of the helm and then rebooted my chart plotters a couple times and regained my GPS coordinates.

It was no big deal. BUT, if I had been on an extended cruise and was not able to resolve the issue. AND if I was many days away from my home berth. Then paper charts would have been crucial to safely getting back to home. As long as my depth sounder works, and my hand bearing compass works it would have been no big deal. With paper charts it is just an exercise in 1980's navigation.

 

[psneeld]

I just completed a trip back from a haul out. It was from Coal Harbour, in Vancouver to Reed Point Marina in Port Moody, a distance or about 9 or so miles and transiting through second narrows, a tidal challenged strait.

On my way back to Vancouver I lost my GPS coordinates.

My boat disappeared from my plot charter, I had no lat/long position, no course heading , no speed. I was on auto pilot at the time so I ensured I had control of the helm and then rebooted my chart plotters a couple times and regained my GPS coordinates.

It was no big deal. BUT, if I had been on an extended cruise and was not able to resolve the issue. AND if I was many days away from my home berth. Then paper charts would have been crucial to safely getting back to home. As long as my depth sounder works, and my hand bearing compass works it would have been no big deal. With paper charts it is just an exercise in 1980's navigation.

If you had the necessary and maybe newer updated charts on a tablet or laptop...you could have done the same nav as with paper charts.

 

[psneeld]

Paper charts are irrelevant until...
The electrons stop flowing.

I would be very careful boating if the electrons stopped flowing in my phone, pad, laptops, chartplotter, GPS radio all at the same time. Especiall with the 3 or 4 battery backup systems I have.... and many chartplotters will also work with a couple test leads to my power tool batteries. A little forethought and the standard "trons go away" issue is a very weak one to support paper charts.

Besides if those same trons left the GPS and depthsounder...many boaters would be in real serious trouble...even with paper charts and without visual references.

 

[StarChaser]

IMO Essential. I have a Wide carriage plotter aboard for printing out my own after downloading.