Not worthy of a couple of honks?

[markpierce]

Last Friday, returning from a Richmond boatyard, I was heading toward home berth in Vallejo.* Was on the eastside of Mare Island Straight about a third of a mile from the ferry terminal.* The ferry pulled out and made a ninety-degree turn toward the exit to San Pablo Bay, headed directly toward me.* A half-minute passes.

I blow two short air-horn blasts, signaling I'd turn to port (away from the shore to the east to avoid running aground).* No acknowledging response from the ferry.* Made a twenty-degree turn*to port, regardless.* My maneuver resulted in plenty of clearance.

I'd expected the ferry to acknowledge the signal.* Is it a matter of "no*respect" or what?

It's not like the ferries are unaware.* Ferries passing me around Pt. Richmond alter course to pass around me.*


-- Edited by markpierce on Sunday 19th of February 2012 05:04:37 PM

 

[psneeld]

may not have heard you...try "two whistles" on ch 13...I know that's not the way it's supposed to work...but around here if it's chilly, not to many are gonna hear a small boat horn.

 

[markpierce]

My horns are LOUD: 134*dB *(range over one mile: they echo off the hills and buldings to either side of the channel).* But then again, the helmsman may be in a steel-and-glass cacoon cut off from any external audio input (doubt it/hopefully not).


-- Edited by markpierce on Sunday 19th of February 2012 05:38:38 PM

 

[psneeld]

At even 1/2 mile..a little background noise drowns out a lot...

Unless a ship as an outside watch without a walkman on...that's usually the only person that will hear even your 135db horns.

It's so bad back here in Jersey...we don't even teach whistle signal in the boaters Safety course...no one understands then in the off chance they even hear them***

 

[rwidman]

I'm near a busy commercial harbor with ships headed in and out all the time. The captains (or pilots) use the VHF, never the horns or whistles. They do use the "one whistle" or "two whistles" terms all the time.

The only time I've heard the actual horns is in heavy fog or one time when a tug signalled a pleasure boat with the danger signal because he didn't feel like altering his course.

In the same vein, I once had to pass a tug and barge on the ICW.* I tried to raise him on the VHF several times and he wouldn't answer.* I just picked a wide spot, hit the throttle and went on by.* With all the pleasure boats, we just negotiated on the VHF.* No whistle talk, port and starboard.


-- Edited by rwidman on Sunday 19th of February 2012 05:42:13 PM

 

[koliver]

Around here the horns would get used, and listened to. Ferries ALWAYS use their horns, backing out of a terminal (3 blasts), in Active Pass (one blast, when approaching blind corners) and if anyone gets in their way (5 blasts).
In our CCGA inspections, everyone has to have a horn that works, so we test blast. We don't test operator knowledge though.

 

[psneeld]

koliver wrote:
Around here the horns would get used, and listened to. Ferries ALWAYS use their horns, backing out of a terminal (3 blasts), in Active Pass (one blast, when approaching blind corners) and if anyone gets in their way (5 blasts).
In our CCGA inspections, everyone has to have a horn that works, so we test blast. We don't test operator knowledge though.

*Big difference between using your horn and someone hearing it...they usually have to try pretty hard..most small vessels make so much noise you can't hear the average horn...again unless you really try.


-- Edited by psneeld on Sunday 19th of February 2012 06:09:53 PM

 

[Marin]

The Washington State ferries never use their horns except when getting ready to leave the slip. And they stop doing even that after dark (for noise reasons as there are houses and whatnot near the ferry slips). They blow them in fog, of course, and I have also heard them blow multiple blasts to warn a boat that was in their way. But nobody uses horns up here for anything other than fog (or testing every now and then). I would say we generally go the good part of a year between hearing anythiing blow a horn outside of fog or a ferry getting underway during the day.

Two to four ferries routinely pass or meet us on our way from Bellingham to our property in the lower San Juans and they never utter a peep, not do we, nor does anyone else even in a fairly narrow pass like Thatcher Pass or Wasp Passage.

Based on that, my guess is that the ferry that you blew your horn at possibly didn't hear you, but I would be more inclined to believe they simply didn't care about a little wee boat that was obviously not presenting any problem to them.

The photo is a routine meet for us (and anyone else who boats in the San Juans) on our way to our property.* Sometimes closer than this and in a narrower pass than this.* All that happens is the bridge crew on the ferry waves at us and we wave back.* No horns necessary or used.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 20th of February 2012 12:10:45 AM

 

[markpierce]

markpierce wrote:
... *The ferry pulled out and made a ninety-degree turn toward the exit to San Pablo Bay, headed directly toward me.*

*I had expected him to go to his starboard side of the channel.* But no, he headed directly toward me on his port, my starboard, side of the channel.


-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 20th of February 2012 12:36:40 AM

 

[Marin]

You were a third of a mile away. By the time the ferry got to where you were you wouldn't be there anymore, unless you were heading directly toward it. Seems like a non-issue to me.

 

[markpierce]

No, he continued directly on a collision course on "my" side of the channel.

 

[Marin]

So that meant he would have steadily been altering his course to remain heading directly toward you. Seems an odd behavior for a commercial vessel, but nevertheless your horn isn't going to accomplish anything to change it. Getting the hell out of the way will.

 

[Budds Outlet]

And perhaps the tonage rule was being applied?

 

[FF]

Most auto pilots that I am familiar with have no input for sound.

And while on AP not much watch is kept.

In New England 2 ferries collided in heavy fog because the same fellow programed them both.

Watch keeper ? Radar? Lookout? Yea sure.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Mark
A two whistle blast in Colregs (inland waters does NOT mean a turn to Port. It means "I intend to leave you on my stbd side. In open waters it does mean turning to port.
I suspect that the ferry operator doubted that your blast meant what was intended. In other words, many times appropriate signals are not interpreted by pleasure vessels correctly (as in this time). As a commercial operator for 34 years, experience tells me that if I blow a 1 whistle passage , the yacht will come by me waving hello. Right or wrong, this is my reality. WELCOME to MY World.

 

[dwhatty]

Yachties = speedbumps per my son the tugboat man.

 

[skipperdude]

"They will get out of the way. I learned that driving the Saratoga"

Captain Ron.

SD

 

[markpierce]

Sailor of Fortune wrote:
Mark
A two whistle blast in Colregs (inland waters does NOT mean a turn to Port. It means "I intend to leave you on my stbd side. In open waters it does mean turning to port.

*Of course you're right.* But to pass him on my starboard side, I had to turn to port.


-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 20th of February 2012 10:56:00 AM

 

[markpierce]

Marin wrote:
So that meant he would have steadily been altering his course to remain heading directly toward you. Seems an odd behavior for a commercial vessel, but nevertheless your horn isn't going to accomplish anything to change it. Getting the hell out of the way will.

*Once turning when leaving the dock, the ferry made no course alterations even though directly aimed at me.* Ferry didn't follow the rules by not*going to*his starboard side of the channel and not acknowledging my signal.* Nevertheless, I did get the hell out of his way.* I operate under the presumption*boats don't follow the rules.

 

[Moonstruck]

markpierce wrote:
*Once turning when leaving the dock, the ferry made no course alterations even though directly aimed at me.* Ferry didn't follow the rules by not*going to*his starboard side of the channel and not acknowledging my signal.* Nevertheless, I did get the hell out of his way.* I operate under the presumption*boats don't follow the rules.

*Come on guys. *All Mark wants to do is toot his own horn. *What's so wrong about that? *Although it could be a good idea to use the radio too.

 

[markpierce]

Moonstruck wrote:*Come on guys. *All Mark wants to do is toot his own horn. *What's so wrong about that? *Although it could be a good idea to use the radio too.

*Dang right!* And a radio is so cumbersome/slow.*

 

[Marin]

markpierce wrote:Ferry didn't follow the rules by not*going to*his starboard side of the channel and not acknowledging my signal.

*What "rules?"* The ferry skipper can do whatever he damn well pleases as long as it doesn't violate the Colregs.* I've not yet seen any double yellow lines down the middle of channels.* While there is an accepted practice of traffic flow through channels and passes, I don't believe there are any hard and fast rules (but I could be wrong).

The ferries here generally keep to one side of a channel or the other so as to pass other commercial vessels port to port.* But the "rule" is not about what side of a channel a vessel should be on, but how two vessels should meet and pass.* There have been plenty of instances where a ferry (or tug and barge or commercial landing craft or even a tanker) has been on the other side (the "wrong" side to your way of thinking) of the channel.* In the photo of the ferry I posted both of us were clear over to the north side of this particular channel.* The centerline of the channel was some distance toward the opposite shore on the far side of the ferry.

But the reality is as Dave described it.* You and your toy boat are at best non-existant to commercial vessels and at worst an annoyance.* There is one regulation in the Colregs that trumps all the "who should do what" reguations, and that is that no matter who is the stand-on vessel and who is the give-way vessel (nobody has the "right of way" in the Colregs), it is the* requirement for both vessels to do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision.

The ferry captain in your case was doing what he was doing for whatever reasons he was doing it.* If you think he* a) gave a rat's ass about what you were doing and* b) was going to change what he was doing to convenience you, think again.

From this and other posts I get the impression that you think everyone on the water-- commercial fishermen with their nets out, ferries, etc--- should be "playing by the rules" to suit you.* Sorry, it's the other way round in most cases.* You're the annoyance on the water, not them.

I suggest that if you haven't done so you obtain a copy of the Colregs and actually read it* You will quickly learn that nobody has the "right of way" over anybody, and that there is a pecking order as to who has the "authority" to be doing what they are doing and thus not be interfered with by anybody else.* As the operators of recreational power vessels, we are very close to the bottom of that list.

If you operate your boat under some assumption that commercial vessels will always--- or should always--- play by some set of rules like "don't leave a ferry slip and head toward you on 'your' side of the channel," I think your best recourse will be to stay well clear of any commercial vessels you see anywhere you see them because trust me, their "behavior" will conflict with what you think they should be doing as often as it will adhere to it.* And they will not be "breaking a rule" when they do it.*

And even if they are, it doesn't matter.* You can blow your silly little horn all day long if you want to, but in the end if you do nothing to avoid a collision, or if you act too late, you will be at least partially if not entirely in the wrong, particularly if the other vessel in question is a commercial one with a "reduced ability to maneuver."* Which is defined by him, by the way, not by you.





-- Edited by Marin on Monday 20th of February 2012 01:19:44 PM

 

[Conrad]

I deal with this situation every time I leave the marina in Campbell River. There is a ferry route within 5 minutes of the marina entrance, and I always keep an eye out for the ferry. My view is that I work around whatever the ferry is doing; not an issue for me, and much less stressful for all concerned.*

In the end, it is not who's right that matters, it's who's left.

 

[weebobby]

Ferries, at least in the PNW, and I believe most places , run on fairly well marked routes so it is not too hard to stay out of their way.

I keep well clear of everybody

 

[koliver]

Ferries, at least in the PNW, and I believe most places , run on fairly well marked routes so it is not too hard to stay out of their way.

I keep well clear of everybody


__________________

Bob


In fact, the chart shows the route of the ferries. If you watch, you will see that they keep strictly to the charted course, unless avoiding some obstacle. Yachts failing to keep a proper lookout are a frequent obstacle.

The Colregs are all about allocation of blame in the event of a collision. Nobody involved will ever get away scot free. There is always that problem of "keeping a proper lookout" which, if done correctly, will keep you out of trouble.

 

[Edelweiss]

With a few exceptions, the crews of the Washington State Ferries are generally courteous and boater friendly.* Every year they participate in many rescues and render assistance to endangered recreational boaters.*

But*expecting that nautical rules*should be applied*equally to both recreational boats and ferries isn't reasonable.* You're maneuvering a 30' - 50' boat which comparatively speaking "can stop and turn on a dime" and floats in 4 feet of water.* The ferry skipper is maneuvering a*380' vessel with a beam of 75',*2,700 gross tons and a 25+ foot*draft.**Common sense should dictate who should "yield" to who.

When*running in close proximity to a commercial vessel I'm watching their*course, speed*and anticipating their*manuevers.* As someone else pointed out, ferries in particular, follow designated routes*and seldom vary far from these scheduled routes.*

By far the most rude boaters I've run into are my fellow recreational boaters, who "drive" their boats, much like they do their car.* IMHO!!

Larry B


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Monday 20th of February 2012 05:51:02 PM

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

When in doubt (or not) a call to the commercial vessel on channel 13 will make everyone breathe easier. The commercial operator wants to know that your aware of his presence and his intended maneuver. Communication goes a long way.

 

[psneeld]

The COLREGS are about 50 percent or so about a stand on and give way vessel..the lights/shapes/whistle signals*by these and what to do.

There is no reference to "recreational"

There are some references to size but for the most part a ferry and an 18 foor outboard are both power vessels.

Yes there are a few rules that say use comon sense...but they are grey areas and push comes to shove that ferry operator could be blamed for a lot if there's an incident (notice I said incident not collision).

A tug operator lost his license for 6 months and was heavily fined because he "scared" a few bass fishermen who were anchored in the channel blocking his approch to pass through a drawbridge.* He never hit them, just got close and even his saying "sorry" on the radio is what got him in the most trouble...the USCG heard it and used it against him.* Do I agree???* Heck no but for those of you that think that comms have rights over recs just because...you are wrong...hopefully never dead wrong.



-- Edited by psneeld on Monday 20th of February 2012 05:58:14 PM


-- Edited by psneeld on Monday 20th of February 2012 06:00:56 PM

 

[Marin]

psneeld wrote:
There is no reference to "recreational"

*This is true.* And in the eyes of the regulations, all vessels of a certain type are equal, just as how as soon as my floatplane touches the water I am bound by the Colregs just like a power vessel.

But like all laws or rules, there is what is written and there is common sense.* I think Larry spelled this out very effectively in his previous post.

Just as a prudent car or motorcyle driver doesn't challenge a semi just because the car or bike*driver has "the law" on his side, the driver of a small recreational vessel will be wise--- in my opinon--- to not challenge the operator of a commercial vessel, particularly a big one, just because the letter of the law is on his side.

While there will be plenty of people on this forum, I'm sure, who will vehemently*disagree with me, I take the attitude that someone working on the water for their livlihood--- a tug crew, a commercial fishing crew, a ferry crew, a ship's crew, the USCG, a pilot boat crew, you name it--- is there for reasons far more important in the overall scheme of things*than my wanting to have a nice afternoon drinking a glass of wine and eating*chips and dip*on a mooring in a pretty bay.

So my attitude, which is shared by my wife, is that any commercial vessel we come across in our cruises is the "stand on vessel" regardless of what the Colregs might say about the situation.

If a gillnet crew decides to put their net across a channel such that we're forced to deviate from our course and go clear around the end of their net, we'll do that happily and with a wave.* They're earning their living and they have to go where the fish are (or they hope they are).* If that inconveniences us a bit, well, I'm not out earning my living with my boat, I'm just screwing around with it for fun.

If a ferry captain decides that for whatever reason he needs to divert from the ferry route marked on the chart, assuming he's not the captain of the*Elwha or the*Costa Concordia I view him as doing his job.* I may not understand why he's going where he's going but that doesn't matter.* He's going there, so we view our responsibilty as maneuvering our own boat well clear.

If we should think that what the commercial vessel is doing might endanger us in some way--- a situation that has never arisen for us*in almost 30 years of boating in these waters--- Sailor of Fortune has the answer.* Call on the appropriate channel.

Continuing on and "waiting to see what will happen" is a fool's course, in my opinion.* We take the attitude that anything can happen, so we take steps to not be a factor in whatever a commercial crew chooses to do.* If that means adding a few minutes to our journey, so what?* If we were in that big of a hurry we shouldn't be out boating in a GB in the first place*

And my wife and I enjoy watching the "pros" at work on the water, be it a seine boat*setting *for salmon, a tug and tow, a tanker manuevering its way into an anchorage off the refinery, and so on.* So we have no issue with taking a little more of our time so that*they will perhaps need a little less of theirs.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 20th of February 2012 06:38:38 PM

 

[markpierce]

Had a very similar situation today but the ferry was about a half mile away and turned toward the center of the strait.**** Intentions were clear and no communication or course change on my part*were necessary.

Marin, you don't seem to read my posts*very carefully.* For instance, I had said I presume everyone else on the water ignores the rules (unless otherwise demonstrated).