No-GPS Chart Plotter

[Simi 60]

I'm thinking the same thing. If GPS goes down, it's probably going to be a result of most of the satellites being shot out of the sky as the opening to WW3.

Was there a lot of recreational boating going on during WW2? I'm too young to know.

And how will the military be able to do anything then?

 

[fgarriso]

I'm thinking the same thing. If GPS goes down, it's probably going to be a result of most of the satellites being shot out of the sky as the opening to WW3.

Was there a lot of recreational boating going on during WW2? I'm too young to know.

That's when you learn to navigate with your compass, stop watch, and speed log. Dead reckoning was a good thing.

GPS satellites is a relevantly new method of navigation. The first one was launched in 1990 and was not operational until 1995-1997 with C/A code for civil users. From 1997- 2004 it was for government use, and and some civil use. In 2005 they launched the M code for advanced military operations. There are 24 primary satellites with 4 back up units. We are now on GPS III with IIIF laser reflectors and have 32 units in full operation at all times.

You must be VERY young.

 

[catalinajack]

The US military, as least the US Navy, does not need GPS to navigate. US Navy ships all have inertial navigation systems. GPS is just another convenient tool just as recreational grade Furuno radars are used on warships.

And how will the military be able to do anything then?

 

[Group9]

That's when you learn to navigate with your compass, stop watch, and speed log. Dead reckoning was a good thing.

GPS satellites is a relevantly new method of navigation. The first one was launched in 1990 and was not operational until 1995-1997 with C/A code for civil users. From 1997- 2004 it was for government use, and and some civil use. In 2005 they launched the M code for advanced military operations. There are 24 primary satellites with 4 back up units. We are now on GPS III with IIIF laser reflectors and have 32 units in full operation at all times.

You must be VERY young.

I was born in 1958. I said I was too young to remember WW2, not that I was too young to remember the advent of GPS.

I know how to navigate without GPS. My point was, if we lose it, it's probably going to be the result of war, and I was wondering, did people do a lot of recreational boating during the last big world war. Because, if they didn't, maybe, we wouldn't do that much of it during WW3.

 

[fgarriso]

I was born in 1958. I said I was too young to remember WW2, not that I was too young to remember the advent of GPS.

I know how to navigate without GPS. My point was, if we lose it, it's probably going to be the result of war, and I was wondering, did people do a lot of recreational boating during the last big world war. Because, if they didn't, maybe, we wouldn't do that much of it during WW3.

I was right you are very young :lol:

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/space/

 

[OldDan1943]

Ya'll are a bunch of young'ins. I was born in 1943.
I wont lie to you, it was the time of radio and going to bed early sooooo, I recall almost nothing about WWII. That was the way my parents wanted it, I guess.
I had a bunch of Uncles in various branches of the armed forces.
I do recall rationing and ration stamps etc.
I ask my dad if he was a democrat or republican. He said he was a member of 4H club. "help harry hurry home".

 

[fgarriso]

I forget I think 1845

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I hadn't thought of loss of GPS as being an end-of-the-world scenario. I've had occassional issues with losing GPS for a period of time, including yesterday. I'm in covered moorage (metal roof), so even with everything up and running I don't get locked in to 5 satelites for quite awhile after leaving the marina. If I am stationary and in the open, I pick them up right away, but out of the marina and moving, I sometimes don't get them for 20 minutes, i.e., several miles.

I also know that my GPS drops out when I turn the engine over. So a momentary stop could mean 20 minutes or more until I get GPS back. I could just sit and wait, but that isn't what I do in local waters.

I have lost GPS in unfamiliar waters. I was once in the Broughtons and was foolishly playing with my MFD settings in a planing boat where things happen faster. I got things so screwed up that I just hit the reset button for factory settings. The screen went blank and slowly came back up with the chart showing where I had last anchored the previous night. I knew I was 30 miles from there, but until I got full GPS, I was sort of suffering a bit of vertigo. I hadn't paid attention to the compass. I slowed down, but then things suddenly got shallow and I just stopped moved the chart to my general area. Sure enough, there was a shallow bank in the area and that's where I must have been. All in all a disorientating experience until the plotting program fully rebooted with GPS. Made me aware of what a crutch GPS is. Fantastic when it works, but I felt like I was driving with my eyes closed when it didn't.

 

[fgarriso]

That's why we need to keep paper charts handy, and pencil in the route.

 

[rslifkin]

That's why we need to keep paper charts handy, and pencil in the route.

It's also why any time I'm in unfamiliar waters, I run both the plotter and a laptop with charts, each with independent GPS. That way if one flakes out, I don't lose charts. And if I lose GPS entirely, I can still use the charts without it (easier on the laptop than the plotter).

 

[fgarriso]

It's also why any time I'm in unfamiliar waters, I run both the plotter and a laptop with charts, each with independent GPS. That way if one flakes out, I don't lose charts. And if I lose GPS entirely, I can still use the charts without it (easier on the laptop than the plotter).

I also run two plotters with two GPS as HOT backups. One on the console and one on the laptop. The paper notes on bearing and distance helps also.

 

[johnma]

my first 20 or so years we didnt have a gps, just used paper charts and a compass. no problem. Of course we only did coastal cruising and were rarely out of sight of land.
John

 

[Simi 60]

The US military, as least the US Navy, does not need GPS to navigate. US Navy ships all have inertial navigation systems. GPS is just another convenient tool just as recreational grade Furuno radars are used on warships.

Slow stuff easy enough
But how about supersonic aircraft and I assume missiles?
No dead reckoning there.

 

[catalinajack]

Not GPS. Think about it. Missles and supersonic aircraft existed long before the advent of GPS. A bit of googling will reveal many types of navigation systems were used, including inertial in some missles.

Slow stuff easy enough
But how about supersonic aircraft and I assume missiles?
No dead reckoning there.

 

[Martin J]

Opencpn has a astronav plugin.

 

[FF]

." If GPS goes down, it's probably going to be a result of most of the satellites being shot out of the sky as the opening to WW3."

It is more likely that a single in orbit nuke , launched by a rogue source, would be used to take out GPS , most computers , the electric grid , a rapid return to the 1920's at best.

AM radio would be first restored so a portable radio (should it survive the pulse) would work as manual direction finder.

Paper charts and a lead line could handle coastal cruising.Binocs with a compass would be great.

Most new autos could serve as chicken coops .

 

[Iggy]

I am a member of 2 yacht clubs. One founded in 1892, the other in 1871. So I think recreational for the times was fair. But due to gas shortages during WWII???

Look at DunKirk?

 

[Porgy]

It’s far easier and cheaper to hack or spoof the system than literally blow it up. There are only two countries that might have that capability but there are scores of adversaries who can muster up a handful of IT techs. There are a number of DHS papers that discuss the vulnerability and ease of disrupting the system. I’m not losing sleep over it but it certainly doesn’t take 24 missiles taking out satellites to bring the system down.

 

[psneeld]

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/emp-threat-works-means-korean-crisis/


(Any high-altitude EMP attack must be conducted at an altitude of 20 miles or above.) At 25 miles, the area of the Earth's surface within line of sight of the blast, and thus theoretically exposed to the E1 pulse, would have a radius of some 440 miles.

...............snips....................

One area of debate about the EMP threat is whether a simple fission device with a yield of, say, less than 10 kilotons—the sort of device that would most likely be held by a fledgling nuclear state or non-state actor—would really be powerful enough to cause widespread damage. The power of the first phase of the EMP for a low-yield device is believed to be limited by the narrow range of altitudes at which it can be detonated while still causing significant damage. For example, a 1-kiloton device is believed to be strongest if detonated at around 25 miles above the Earth. If detonated much higher, the electromagnetic pulse would dissipate too much. If detonated much lower, deep inside the Earth’s atmosphere, it wouldn’t produce an EMP of consequence at all. (Any high-altitude EMP attack must be conducted at an altitude of 20 miles or above.)

 

[Group9]

Well, if 2020 (and 2021 so far) has taught me anything, it's that I really have no idea what's coming next.

 

[garychurch]

Most new GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite Systems) use more than one satellite navigation system. Most use the US’s GPS and Russia’s GLONASS. China, Japan and India are also deploying GNSS that may be used one of these days as well. This provides good redundancy but not perfect if electronics fail.

Dead Reckoning (DR) on paper charts in conjunction with methods to verify position like sextant, depth sounders, radars, compass embedded binoculars, etc. are a fall back to electronic failures.

 

[Lecomte38]

Paper charts

Paper charts and a solid knowledge of how to use them is necessary

 

[ProMaritime]

Yes, it features the Mark 1 Eyeball and a sextant.

 

[backinblue]

On my boat it is paper charts, which we had to resort to on our delivery trip when our GPS shut down because the house batteries were not charging and voltage got low.

 

[Overserved66]

Charts for navigation

In all honesty, we never leave port without our paper chartbook as a backup. I'm as lazy as the next guy when it comes to relying on my electronical gadgetry to get me where I want to go, but I always make sure my paper charts are on board, my compass is in good working order, and my chartplotting tools are with me. It's very satisfying to turn off the electronics once in awhile and navigate with the charts to keep the skills fresh. Sailors have used them for centuries. They are the only true backup that won't fail you.

 

[backinblue]

In all honesty, we never leave port without our paper chartbook as a backup. I'm as lazy as the next guy when it comes to relying on my electronical gadgetry to get me where I want to go, but I always make sure my paper charts are on board, my compass is in good working order, and my chartplotting tools are with me. It's very satisfying to turn off the electronics once in awhile and navigate with the charts to keep the skills fresh. Sailors have used them for centuries. They are the only true backup that won't fail you.

Completely agree. When I started boating, GPS was not an option. I never had LORAN, so navigating by compass and paper charts was the norm. I was surprisingly successful considering some of the conditions. Wherever I am boating today, there are always paper charts onboard.

 

[psneeld]

Paper might be timeless, but who updates them completely and several times a year like free downloaded charts can be?

 

[Group9]

And how will the military be able to do anything then?

Considering how the Navy re-introduced celestial navigation at Annapolis a few years ago, I think the same question occurred to them.

 

[OldDan1943]

Paper might be timeless, but who updates them completely and several times a year like free downloaded charts can be?

Any chart or charts of concern can be ordered from Bluewater, asking for them to be updated. It will cost you to have them updated. Traveling a mile or two off shore, your current chart should be good enough. Inlets, you caution, sounder and slow speed. Might help if you enter at high tide then move into the AICW channel. The AICW was never designed for high speed travel. Slow and steady. Crossing an inlet while on the AICW, stay away from the inlet side due to the possibility of a delta. Basically, you have 4 "friends" on board if your GPS goes down, reliable paper charts, reliable compass, depth sounder and RADAR for ranging.
I am open to suggestions, corrections and additions.

 

[psneeld]

Any chart or charts of concern can be ordered from Bluewater, asking for them to be updated. It will cost you to have them updated. Traveling a mile or two off shore, your current chart should be good enough. Inlets, you caution, sounder and slow speed. Might help if you enter at high tide then move into the AICW channel. The AICW was never designed for high speed travel. Slow and steady. Crossing an inlet while on the AICW, stay away from the inlet side due to the possibility of a delta. Basically, you have 4 "friends" on board if your GPS goes down, reliable paper charts, reliable compass, depth sounder and RADAR for ranging.
I am open to suggestions, corrections and additions.

Its not the soundings that worry me, its the majors changes in ATON, restricted/prohibited areas, etc.....

And like I said, electronic can be downloaded just prior to departure, ordering a whole new set of charts.....wasteful in my book as I am not going to go through the weekly USCG notices and update the charts like one is supposed to when I can download a dozen or way more in minutes for free (USA at least).