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Old 11-24-2021, 04:50 PM   #21
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Iím not being sarcastic Iím just wondering what is consuming most of your power Iím assuming youíre not air conditioning with your battery bank or heating water or heating with electricity .Iíll get by fine with very little .Iím just not quite understanding what you need all that power for Refrigerator ,heavy use of the microwave I honestly donít know, On a new build hydraulic thrusters will definitely be an option .I like them better anyways like I said Iím not being sarcastic I truly donít understand
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Old 11-24-2021, 05:08 PM   #22
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For those mentioning fire concerns with lithium, that's more of a concern for Li-ion batteries. The stuff typically used in boats is LiFePO4, which is a very different chemistry. Energy density is lower than Li-ion (but still much higher than lead acid) and LiFePO4 doesn't have the big fire danger of a large Li-ion battery.


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Iím not being sarcastic Iím just wondering what is consuming most of your power Iím assuming youíre not air conditioning with your battery bank or heating water or heating with electricity .Iíll get by fine with very little .Iím just not quite understanding what you need all that power for Refrigerator ,heavy use of the microwave I honestly donít know, On a new build hydraulic thrusters will definitely be an option .I like them better anyways like I said Iím not being sarcastic I truly donít understand
On my boat, the biggest power consumers when we're on battery power are the fridge and the ice maker (via the inverter). We could easily go without the ice maker, but we have the means to power it easily enough and it came with the boat, so might as well use it. Other than that, power is mostly for lights, fans, the onboard wifi setup, charging phones, etc. Oh, and it's nice and convenient to just plug in the coffee maker and use it on inverter/battery power in the morning. We've got far from the biggest electrical system on this forum, however.

If space, weight capacity and budget allows, it's nice to have an electrical system that can power all the stuff you want (which may or may not be a lot depending on your boat and lifestyle), rather than constantly being limited by a small electrical system.
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Old 11-24-2021, 07:01 PM   #23
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Iím not being sarcastic Iím just wondering what is consuming most of your power Iím assuming youíre not air conditioning with your battery bank or heating water or heating with electricity .Iíll get by fine with very little .Iím just not quite understanding what you need all that power for Refrigerator ,heavy use of the microwave I honestly donít know, On a new build hydraulic thrusters will definitely be an option .I like them better anyways like I said Iím not being sarcastic I truly donít understand
What you don't understand is people have different needs, priorities and opinions that yours.
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Old 11-24-2021, 07:13 PM   #24
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How much do you expect to use the batteries? If you overnight connected to shore power most of the time, then your batteries will only ever get used to carry you through short periods of no shore power or no engine running. It's hard to get excited about optimizing batteries for that use.


If, on the other hand, you anchor out a lot, especially for multiple days at a time, then I think LFP will bring a lot of value to your day to day life. People say they require more attention to charging and maintenance. I disagree. They require much less attention to charging and maintenance. The really are better in almost every regard.


But there are a few things to think about. Can you locate them somewhere in the boat where they will stay above 0C/32F, and stay below 40C/105F? Mine are in the laz, and the temp control is very good. The surrounding water keeps it cool enough in the summer, and residual heat from my heater keeps it warm enough in the winter. But if you store your boat in a freezing climate in the winter, you may want to remove the batteries. They can be stored below freezing, but can't really be operated that cold.


As for cost, I would ignore it. I know, easy to say about someone else's money, but hear me out. In a new build, it's pretty easy to accommodate things like operating temp range. Also, the incremental cost will be negligible. You can argue about how much more expensive LFP is to purchase. But you can also argue how much cheaper they are over time. Both are true, and are used to arrive at whatever answer someone is looking for. For me, every time I use the batteries, which is frequently on the boat and every day in my house, I'm reminded how much they are worth every penny I paid for them.


I share other's concerns over BMS electronic failures taking out the batteries, but in both of my installations, I found pretty workable safeguards. In my home system that is also home made, I out in a manual override switch that forces the batteries on regardless of what the BMS thinks. It also let's me work on the system and keep power on while doing so.


On the boat I went a bit fancier and have two separate battery banks, each with it's own BMS. So if one fails in any way, I can keep running on the second one. Additionally, I have manual parallel switches that let me switch either of two start banks in as the house bank. The start banks are AGMs, so I don't have all my eggs in the LFP basket.


In a new build, it's really easy to incorporate stuff like this to achieve the level of redundancy that you want.
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Old 11-24-2021, 08:04 PM   #25
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@Scooby, you commented about hydraulics for a new build for thruster and windlass. However I donít believe in mixing too many systems for small boats (say 65í or less) as itís unnecessary. Would prefer to keep to all electric, with possibly some propane in the galley to augment induction.

My wife likes both for different uses. I like redundancy.
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:13 AM   #26
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From what I see the choices are similar to electronics.

Some folks are happy with a compass and a chart kit, others require a 24 inch flat screen with multiple backups.

Lithium batts seem to be a boating hobby for folks that enjoy the tech side.

WLA seem to be for the folks that just want to go cruising .
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:27 AM   #27
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In life cycle costs on a boat you are going to keep for awhile, the LFP will be cheaper than FLA or AGM. That used to be a theoretical prediction, but they have been around long enough now that it is proven experience. LA wins on initial capital investment, but loses by replacement time.
And will you own the boat or even live long enough to break even on those fancy LFP batteries? And fire? If one of those LFPs gets going, abandon boat cuz you won't be able to squelch it. In short order, it may even burn its way through the bottom of the boat. Amuse yourself and Google electric car fires and how 10,000s of thousands of water hosed by firefighters does almost nothing to knock down the fire. With all of the angst boaters commonly have about unlikely catastrophes, like we MUST have dual Racors, this event, burning LFPs, is far more likely and potentially DEADLY to boot unlike having to change a filter in a pitching seaway. Yet, from the proponents of LFP technology I have seen ZERO concern or discussion or analysis or even rationalization.

If a FLA battery fails, remove it from the bank (or two if a 6-volt array) and carry on till you can get to a port and go to Costco or Sam's Club.
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:40 AM   #28
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And fire? If one of those LFPs gets going, abandon boat cuz you won't be able to squelch it. In short order, it may even burn its way through the bottom of the boat. Amuse yourself and Google electric car fires and how 10,000s of thousands of water hosed by firefighters does almost nothing to knock down the fire.

I don't know of a single electric car using LFP batteries. As far as I know, they're all other lithium chemistries (which are more energy dense, but much less safe from a fire perspective). That danger is one of the big reasons why LFP became common over the other chemistries for boats. It's much safer at the expense of lower energy density (but it's still a big improvement over lead acid in that department, so good enough for boat use where you're not counting every last pound).
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:52 AM   #29
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Yes, when doing a new build plan on a very capable Li battery complete and integrated system. But and a very big but, have a very good charging and inverter system. Add to it complete redundancy for:
- engine and generator starting,
- inverter failure and bypass
- segment separation on Li strings
- large engine driven Alternator or DC power source
- battery temperature cooling/heating

Which raises a question, are builders and designers up to the task of a good Li system? This would be a serious Achilles heel IMHO especially given the lack of agreed upon electrical system best practice design by current builders and slow to the party ABYC recommendations for Li systems.

What would be helpful on this subject would be comments regarding problems and solutions experienced Li system cruisers have endured. Since these are virtually non- existent on TF does this mean Li systems are that good or users are quiet regarding issues?
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Old 11-25-2021, 09:52 AM   #30
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For those mentioning fire concerns with lithium, that's more of a concern for Li-ion batteries. The stuff typically used in boats is LiFePO4, which is a very different chemistry. Energy density is lower than Li-ion (but still much higher than lead acid) and LiFePO4 doesn't have the big fire danger of a large Li-ion battery.
Since I'm now driving an all electric boat, I have spent countless hours researching all the various battery chemistries. The above comment on LifePO4 batteries is right on the money! Not to mention they are about half the weight of AGMs. Also, they don't have one drop of any kind of liquid and continually put out max power right down to fully discharged. Yes, they are expensive but when you consider the expected number of cycles a FLA or AGM will give you (200-300?) the LIFEPO4s will give you 2000-3000 before failing. More & more golf carts and electric vehicles are switching to LIFEPO4s.

Click on the link below and then scroll down to Lithium iron Phosphate (LIFEPO4) Probably the best article I've found on this subject.



https://ddmotorsystems.com/ElectricBoats.php
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Old 11-25-2021, 11:35 AM   #31
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And fire? If one of those LFPs gets going, abandon boat cuz you won't be able to squelch it. In short order, it may even burn its way through the bottom of the boat. Amuse yourself and Google electric car fires and how 10,000s of thousands of water hosed by firefighters does almost nothing to knock down the fire. With all of the angst boaters commonly have about unlikely catastrophes, like we MUST have dual Racors, this event, burning LFPs, is far more likely and potentially DEADLY to boot unlike having to change a filter in a pitching seaway. Yet, from the proponents of LFP technology I have seen ZERO concern or discussion or analysis or even rationalization.

This is simply not true. A common mistake, but completely incorrect none the less. LFP is VERY VERY different from other Lithium-Ion chemistries, and is actually pretty hard to get burning and keep burning. It's really very much like LA in that respect. It will release all the stored energy just as any battery will, but it doesn't run away. The most flammable part is the plastic case, just like with a LA battery. Comparing to Tesla or other car fires simply demonstrates ignorance of the different types of Li-Ion batteries.


And in an earlier post you talked about how much safer the components of LA batteries are. That's nonsense. Sulfuric acid is one of the most caustic and dangerous substances on the planet. And lead is one of the most toxic.
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Old 11-25-2021, 11:59 AM   #32
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Yes, when doing a new build plan on a very capable Li battery complete and integrated system. But and a very big but, have a very good charging and inverter system. Add to it complete redundancy for:
- engine and generator starting,
- inverter failure and bypass
- segment separation on Li strings
- large engine driven Alternator or DC power source
- battery temperature cooling/heating

The need for a giant system redesign is completely over blown. You can swap the batteries, adjust charger settings, and go about your business. It's really no different from switching from FLA to AGM or GEL batteries. The only restriction is that if you have fixed voltage chargers, they need to operate within the allowed range for LFP. My home system was set up this way. I swapped the batteries, and adjusted charger settings. Haven't touched is since in two years.


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Which raises a question, are builders and designers up to the task of a good Li system?

I think this is the biggest problem. People don't yet understand what's needed, and lots are blowing things out of proportion, whether it's the need to rework your entire electrical system, or that your boat will burst into flames and burn a hole in the sea. It certainly took me a while to get my head around it and to get comfortable enough to build a system. But after doing that, and living with the system for a year in daily use, I came to realize how simple and uncomplicated it really is. And how maintenance and worry free the results are. But it takes time. We have all come to know the idiosyncrasies of LA over the years, and it all seems simple and natural because we understand it. LFP is the same, only simpler, once you get familiar with it. But that will happen one tech at a time, and one customer at a time. The technology is there, but broad understanding and comfort with it has some catching up to do.


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This would be a serious Achilles heel IMHO especially given the lack of agreed upon electrical system best practice design by current builders and slow to the party ABYC recommendations for Li systems.

There is progress on this front. ABYC published TE-13 almost 2 years ago which is a "technical report" on Lithium Ion batteries in boats. A Technical Report is a pre-cursor to a standard, and currently up for review is E-13 which elevates it to a standard just like all other ABYC standards. I'm not sure when the draft becomes available for public review. It might be now. I'm on the ABYC committee so have access, but am not certain what goes public when.


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What would be helpful on this subject would be comments regarding problems and solutions experienced Li system cruisers have endured. Since these are virtually non- existent on TF does this mean Li systems are that good or users are quiet regarding issues?

There are a number of LFP users here on TF who have chimed in over the past few years. And there is a pretty active repository on CruiserForum. On the whole I think sail boaters spend more time at anchor using their batteries, so have been quicker to switch over.
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Old 11-25-2021, 01:17 PM   #33
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Something to consider, Mean Time Between Failure.

I have not studied this in LiFeP04 cells so here are my generalized thoughts.

A LiFeP04 "battery" actually consists of I believe hundreds of small cells similar in size to a C or a D cell we all used to see in flashlights.

Make a large bank of LiFeP04 and we probably have thousands of cells.

Now think that any one of those little cells failing will render the bank severely impaired if it fails. Not only the cells but any one of the thousands of solder connections that make up a LiFeP04 bank.

What is the MTBF of the bank as a whole?

Remember that most of these banks and boats are not like Twistedtrees well thought out redundant systems. They are expensive and the lack of redundancy is checkbook driven. For Example... I follow a sailing channel on Youtube "Atticus" and their system was professionally designed by a reputable well known electrical expert, yet is highly vunerable to any single point of failure rendering it pretty much useless. My opinion is that this design methodology is more the norm than the exception.

We only think of the theoretical number of cycles in a LiFeP04 system, and tend to not even consider the real failure rate of things.
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Old 11-25-2021, 01:50 PM   #34
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And will you own the boat or even live long enough to break even on those fancy LFP batteries?
.
As I've said before, here in Oz the 840 ah LFP bank we have build cost about $2000 less than the cheapest 880ah AGM

If buying on actual usable ah the LFP is considerably cheaper again


Quote:

And fire? If one of those LFPs gets going, abandon boat cuz you won't be able to squelch it. In short order, it may even burn its way through the bottom of the boat. Amuse yourself and Google electric car fires and how 10,000s of thousands of water hosed by firefighters does almost nothing to knock down the fire.
And again, different chemistry

Quote:

If a FLA battery fails, remove it from the bank (or two if a 6-volt array) and carry on till you can get to a port and go to Costco or Sam's Club.


And with our LFP system I simply disconnect 1 of the 3 X 280ah @ 24v batteries and continue on with 2.
And with 2, I still have more usable ah than I had with the 880ah of AGM
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Old 11-25-2021, 01:57 PM   #35
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Something to consider, Mean Time Between Failure.

I have not studied this in LiFeP04 cells so here are my generalized thoughts.

A LiFeP04 "battery" actually consists of I believe hundreds of small cells similar in size to a C or a D cell we all used to see in flashlights.

Make a large bank of LiFeP04 and we probably have thousands of cells.



.

Some do
Most dont
Battleborn use multiple small cells which is one of the reasons why I wouldn't use them, that and the crazy pricing.

Ours are 3.5v prismatic cells
8 cells = 280ah @ 24v
If one was to fail I simply take it out and replace , top balance again and am good to go.

And, if you didn't already know, lead acid batteries and AGM are also made up of multiple cells.
But in those if a cell fails I have to bin the whole battery
And if doing the system correctly, buy a complete new battery bank.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:20 PM   #36
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Some do
Most dont
Battleborn use multiple small cells which is one of the reasons why I wouldn't use them, that and the crazy pricing.

Ours are 3.5v prismatic cells
8 cells = 280ah @ 24v
If one was to fail I simply take it out and replace , top balance again and am good to go.

And, if you didn't already know, lead acid batteries and AGM are also made up of multiple cells.
But in those if a cell fails I have to bin the whole battery
And if doing the system correctly, buy a complete new battery bank.


All I can add to the above is that a lead battery is not just multiple cells, but each cell is dozens of metal plates closely spaced. The results are pretty similar if one of those pates breaks free or otherwise shorts.
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Old 11-25-2021, 04:21 PM   #37
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As I've said before, here in Oz the 840 ah LFP bank we have build cost about $2000 less than the cheapest 880ah AGM

If buying on actual usable ah the LFP is considerably cheaper again
The savings can be extended if the Lithium and inverters are used to replace generator(s) in a new build. In my full refit, new generators would have been 10s of thousands of dollars so I'm ahead from day one without even considering costs of ongoing reliability, maintenance, parts etc. I'm replacing 30 and 10 KVA generators with a large bank and solar array, with a el cheapo 3kva unit for diaster recovery only (no sun for a week).

To those that questioned where are the reports of the downsides to lithium, I've been using them for years in dive scooters. They really are plug and play once the owner realises how reliable they are. I spent the first season monitoring cell and string voltages, charge and discharge rates etc but soon realised that micro management isn't necessary. You just have to look at the penetration of lithium into all the different forms of storage to see how accepted and reliable they have become. Typically those campaigning against lithium have never used them and therefore have not seen the benefits or trivial downsides. Again, look at anecdotal evidence. Many have moved from lead to lithium but I don't know of anyone who has moved from lithium back to lead.

Reports of fires and explosions are very dramatic but limited to non Lifepo4 and then only after some form of extreme abuse or bad design. Clearly those raising the concern have never seen a lead acid incident. Typically they don't burn but explode sending hot sulfuric acid every where. Not pretty.

To the question of what we are using all this power for? Many vessels are power hungry because of equipment or occupants. Mine will have numerous residential appliances and a full dive platform. Like anything, usage also expands to meet availability. In my case, I'm sure AC usage will be less rigourously controlled, fresh water usage will expand etc. Why? Because we now can with so much power easily available at essentially zero ongoing cost and effort.
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Old 11-25-2021, 04:49 PM   #38
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On the whole I think sail boaters spend more time at anchor using their batteries, so have been quicker to switch over.
Sailboaters switch over because they have limited sources of charge making charging time (and the ability to run at partial states of charge) paramount. On a motorboat, these are normally much less of a consideration. Motor is running anytime you are moving with essentially unlimited charge capability. On a sailboat you may need to run the engine *only* to charge the batteries, you'd like it done quickly and with no 4 hour charge tail like LA batteries require.
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Old 11-25-2021, 05:00 PM   #39
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Sailboaters switch over because they have limited sources of charge making charging time (and the ability to run at partial states of charge) paramount. On a motorboat, these are normally much less of a consideration. Motor is running anytime you are moving with essentially unlimited charge capability. .
And then we anchor for a week or more getting nothing from it.
Not that we would have got much from the one hour run to the next anchorage

It's why I didn't waste well over a grand going down the alternator and regulator path and instead went big solar and now, batteries that actually perform

We don't even have an alt on the engine anymore, charge for starts instead comes from a $200 victron smart charger
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Old Yesterday, 07:14 AM   #40
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"And with our LFP system I simply disconnect 1 of the 3 X 280ah @ 24v batteries and continue on with 2.
And with 2, I still have more usable ah than I had with the 880ah of AGM"

But what about the fire?

Aircraft have had ejection seats for 1/2 a century , deck mount the batts and just pull the RED handle?
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